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LP versus CD sales
Posted by: freeradical
Date: October 21, 2021 11:21AM
Quote

Within the Indianapolis office of Joyful Noise Recordings, a specialty label that caters to vinyl-loving fans of underground rock, is a corner that employees call the “lathe cave.”

There sits a Presto 6N record lathe — a 1940s-vintage machine the size of a microwave that makes records by cutting a groove into a blank vinyl platter. Unlike most standard records, which are pressed by the hundreds or thousands, each lathe-cut disc must be created individually.

“It’s incredibly laborious,” said Karl Hofstetter, the label’s founder. “If a song is three minutes long, it takes three minutes to make every one.”

This ancient technology — scuffed and dinged, the lathe looks like something from a World War II submarine — is a key part of Joyful Noise’s strategy to survive the very surge of vinyl popularity the label has helped fuel. Left for dead with the advent of CDs in the 1980s, vinyl records are now the music industry’s most popular and highest-grossing physical format, with fans choosing it for collectibility, sound quality or simply the tactile experience of music in an age of digital ephemerality. After growing steadily for more than a decade, LP sales exploded during the pandemic.

In the first six months of this year, 17 million vinyl records were sold in the United States, generating $467 million in retail revenue, nearly double the amount from the same period in 2020, according to the Recording Industry Association of America. Sixteen million CDs were also sold in the first half of 2021, worth just $205 million. Physical recordings are now just a sliver of the overall music business — streaming is 84 percent of domestic revenue — but they can be a strong indication of fan loyalty, and stars like Taylor Swift and Olivia Rodrigo make vinyl an important part of their marketing.


[www.nytimes.com]
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Re: LP versus CD sales
Posted by: Robert M
Date: October 21, 2021 11:27AM
Free,

One of my teachers had a machine like that and actually cut LPs for us. It was very cool back then and, knowing what I know now about manufacturing and such, even more amazing. I still have my LP. Don't have a turntable to play the LP but I still have it. - lol!

Robert
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Re: LP versus CD sales
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: October 21, 2021 11:45AM
Read that article earlier this morning. I continue to be amused by how far the industry will bend over to support what is still for all intents and purposes a dead technology.



It is what it is.
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Re: LP versus CD sales
Posted by: raz
Date: October 21, 2021 11:50AM
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
Read that article earlier this morning. I continue to be amused by how far the industry will bend over to support what is still for all intents and purposes a dead technology.

Politely disagree. Vinyl sounds better than any digital I can get. When my (adult) son heard the difference he went out and bought himself a setup.

Yes, it's less convenient. Yes, it's fragile. I (and others) happily make that trade-off.



--------------

Embarassing myself on the Internet since 1978.
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Re: LP versus CD sales
Posted by: Z
Date: October 21, 2021 11:57AM
I am subscribed to a vinyl of the month club and in fact just bought a new to me deck for the cabin to upgrade the older Hitachi unit there.
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Re: LP versus CD sales
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: October 21, 2021 12:13PM
Analog people in a digital world. Still happy there is a place for my vinyl collection built since the early 1970's. Some day I need to set up the stereo and play some of it.

Now.. you want hard core ? Edison Wax cylinder collectors. My old boss (retired for many years) had quite the collection.

There is something evocative about owning a piece of history, a recording of voices long stilled.
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Re: LP versus CD sales
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: October 21, 2021 12:18PM
.....haver never bought a.....Limited Partnership.....



_____________________________________

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
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Re: LP versus CD sales
Posted by: Lew Zealand
Date: October 21, 2021 12:19PM
CD should sound better but vinyl does sound better. Why is that?

Because CD is merely the least convenient digital format and attention to sound quality in digital formats does not drive any sales. Digital is all about convenience. Therefore making digital reproduction of music sound as good as the format can deliver does not have a good return on investment, so no such investment is made.

However people going out of their way to purchase LPs and the equipment to do it justice are driven by sound quality as their primary focus, even with LP's inherent limitations. Certainly not convenience. So LPs are mixed and mastered towards maximizing the format's sonic strengths, easily eclipsing the compromises of typical lazy CD mastering.
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Re: LP versus CD sales
Posted by: Lux Interior
Date: October 21, 2021 12:24PM
Quiz:

How many grooves are on one side of an LP that has 6 songs, each 3 minutes long?

The LP has a 12" diameter and spins at 33 1/3 RPM.
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Re: LP versus CD sales
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: October 21, 2021 12:26PM
....groovy.....man.....



_____________________________________

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
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Re: LP versus CD sales
Posted by: Forrest
Date: October 21, 2021 12:26PM
Science proves CD have superior sound quality than LP. Stereo separation, S/N ratio, etc is all clearly superior on CD. I will not go back to all the clicks/pops, etc from LP’s.
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Re: LP versus CD sales
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: October 21, 2021 12:31PM
Quote
Lux Interior
Quiz:

How many grooves are on one side of an LP that has 6 songs, each 3 minutes long?

The LP has a 12" diameter and spins at 33 1/3 RPM.

One.



It is what it is.
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Re: LP versus CD sales
Posted by: freeradical
Date: October 21, 2021 12:33PM
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
Quote
Lux Interior
Quiz:

How many grooves are on one side of an LP that has 6 songs, each 3 minutes long?

The LP has a 12" diameter and spins at 33 1/3 RPM.

One.


What is the angular velocity after the end of the fourth song?
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Re: LP versus CD sales
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: October 21, 2021 12:38PM
Quote
Forrest
Science proves CD have superior sound quality than LP. Stereo separation, S/N ratio, etc is all clearly superior on CD. I will not go back to all the clicks/pops, etc from LP’s.

This. The CD standard was carefully designed to outperform the LP in every conceivable way, which it does.



It is what it is.
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Re: LP versus CD sales
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: October 21, 2021 12:38PM
Quote
freeradical
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
Quote
Lux Interior
Quiz:

How many grooves are on one side of an LP that has 6 songs, each 3 minutes long?

The LP has a 12" diameter and spins at 33 1/3 RPM.

One.


What is the angular velocity after the end of the fourth song?

Depends on whether you're playing a single or album. smiling smiley



It is what it is.
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Re: LP versus CD sales
Posted by: rz
Date: October 21, 2021 12:59PM
Quote
Forrest
Science proves CD have superior sound quality than LP. Stereo separation, S/N ratio, etc is all clearly superior on CD. I will not go back to all the clicks/pops, etc from LP’s.

agree smiley

People who say vinyl sounds better have convinced themselves it sounds better. A friend was all excited to show me his setup. He put on an LP and I could hear the clicks and pops, and that sound the needle makes when going over dead space. He thought it sounded great. I thought it sounded like crap. His collection of a couple hundred LPs takes up more space than my ~1,000 CDs.
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Re: LP versus CD sales
Posted by: freeradical
Date: October 21, 2021 12:59PM
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
Quote
Forrest
Science proves CD have superior sound quality than LP. Stereo separation, S/N ratio, etc is all clearly superior on CD. I will not go back to all the clicks/pops, etc from LP’s.

This. The CD standard was carefully designed to outperform the LP in every conceivable way, which it does.

Actually, it is a classic case of "just barely good enough" technology.

The CD only came out when it was possible to make a solid state laser that did not self destruct at room temperature. The wavelength of that laser is far too long for high resolution audio. If the compact disc were to be designed today, it would be to utterly different standards.
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Re: LP versus CD sales
Posted by: S. Pupp
Date: October 21, 2021 01:00PM
I hate the clicks/pops, limited dynamic range, and hiss from vinyl, and the changing pitch from offset center holes. I also hate the cleaning of needles and cleaning of vinyl.

Poor quality digital equipment sounds brash, with treble harshness that can be fatiguing. The key is to get good quality equipment.

I have a decent vinyl setup: Thorens TD-166mkII turntable with Sumiko Blue Point 2 cartridge, and McCormack Phono Drive phono pre-amp. Pre-amp is passive. Amp is B&K AV5000 bi-amping a pair of Apogee Slant 6 speakers.

My home theater PC playing flac files through a Creative PCIe card beats the socks off my vinyl setup.

I have heard truly excellent sound reproduction from vinyl, but on equipment costing tens of thousands of dollars. You're better off getting a $200 DAC for your digital sources than a $200 vinyl setup, in my experience.
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Re: LP versus CD sales
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: October 21, 2021 01:22PM
Quote
freeradical
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
Quote
Forrest
Science proves CD have superior sound quality than LP. Stereo separation, S/N ratio, etc is all clearly superior on CD. I will not go back to all the clicks/pops, etc from LP’s.

This. The CD standard was carefully designed to outperform the LP in every conceivable way, which it does.

Actually, it is a classic case of "just barely good enough" technology.

The CD only came out when it was possible to make a solid state laser that did not self destruct at room temperature. The wavelength of that laser is far too long for high resolution audio. If the compact disc were to be designed today, it would be to utterly different standards.

High resolution audio is snake oil. The CD standard was designed to be able to perfectly reproduce an analog waveform -- the ability to do this is at least part of the reason 16-bits/44.1 kHz was selected for the standard. The article linked below does a good job of getting into the nitty-gritty details of how this works. There's another article from many years ago that also does a good job of explaining this - I'm at work and don't have time to search for it now, but if I can find it later I will post a link.

[www.soundguys.com]

EDIT: Not the page I referred to above, but here is another good read: [www.mojo-audio.com]

EDIT #2: Aha - found it! Here's the original link: [people.xiph.org]

It's dead now, so here is the link via the Wayback Machine: [web.archive.org]



It is what it is.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/2021 10:37PM by N-OS X-tasy!.
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Re: LP versus CD sales
Posted by: Dennis S
Date: October 21, 2021 01:32PM
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
Quote
freeradical
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
Quote
Lux Interior
Quiz:

How many grooves are on one side of an LP that has 6 songs, each 3 minutes long?

The LP has a 12" diameter and spins at 33 1/3 RPM.

One.


What is the angular velocity after the end of the fourth song?

Depends on whether you're playing a single or album. smiling smiley

I do remember the last song on an album sounding like crap.
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Re: LP versus CD sales
Posted by: mattkime
Date: October 21, 2021 02:47PM
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
Read that article earlier this morning. I continue to be amused by how far the industry will bend over to support what is still for all intents and purposes a dead technology.

Music is about emotion, even relating to the recording material



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Re: LP versus CD sales
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: October 21, 2021 04:23PM
Quote
mattkime
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
Read that article earlier this morning. I continue to be amused by how far the industry will bend over to support what is still for all intents and purposes a dead technology.

Music is about emotion, even relating to the recording material

Does that also apply to pops, clicks, hiss, wow, flutter and skips? Those things tend to detract my attention from the music.



It is what it is.
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Re: LP versus CD sales
Posted by: space-time
Date: October 21, 2021 04:37PM
I guess it's like watching an Imax movie versus an old projector film.
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Re: LP versus CD sales
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: October 21, 2021 04:39PM
Quote
space-time
I guess it's like watching an Imax movie versus an old projector film.

There is an applicable digital vs analog analogy for cinema - no need to crank it all way up to IMAX (which is analog, BTW, at least for the 70mm presentations).



It is what it is.
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Re: LP versus CD sales
Posted by: tronnei
Date: October 21, 2021 04:54PM
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
Quote
Lux Interior
Quiz:

How many grooves are on one side of an LP that has 6 songs, each 3 minutes long?

The LP has a 12" diameter and spins at 33 1/3 RPM.

One.

Except when it's two.

The Monty Python Matching Tie and Handkerchief is the fourth album by the comedy group Monty Python, released in 1973. The album's original LP edition is particularly notable in that it was mastered with two concentric grooves on side two, so that different material would be played depending on where the stylus was put down on the record's surface. For this reason it is sometimes referred to as a "three-sided" record. The album did not have a track listing, so that this feature would come as a complete surprise to listeners, who might on a subsequent listening hear material they had never heard before, creating genuine confusion.

I must have played the record a dozen times before I got the alternate groove. I thought I was losing my mind.
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Re: LP versus CD sales
Posted by: space-time
Date: October 21, 2021 05:40PM
Quote
tronnei
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
Quote
Lux Interior
Quiz:

How many grooves are on one side of an LP that has 6 songs, each 3 minutes long?

The LP has a 12" diameter and spins at 33 1/3 RPM.

One.

Except when it's two.

The Monty Python Matching Tie and Handkerchief is the fourth album by the comedy group Monty Python, released in 1973. The album's original LP edition is particularly notable in that it was mastered with two concentric grooves on side two, so that different material would be played depending on where the stylus was put down on the record's surface. For this reason it is sometimes referred to as a "three-sided" record. The album did not have a track listing, so that this feature would come as a complete surprise to listeners, who might on a subsequent listening hear material they had never heard before, creating genuine confusion.

I must have played the record a dozen times before I got the alternate groove. I thought I was losing my mind.

That is so cool. I wonder if you can do that with a CD? or even better, with an MP3 which would play one track or the other depending on a random number generator.
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Re: LP versus CD sales
Posted by: Rick-o
Date: October 21, 2021 06:19PM
> I hate the clicks/pops, limited dynamic range, and hiss from vinyl, and the changing pitch from offset center holes. I also hate the cleaning of needles and cleaning of vinyl.

This. Who needs it? I gladly switched to CDs when they came out. None of that fuss above.



Mr. Lahey: A lot of people, don’t know how to drink. They drink against the grain of the liquor. And when you drink against the grain of the liquor? You lose.

Randy: What the @#$%& are you talking about?
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Re: LP versus CD sales
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: October 21, 2021 06:52PM
There are lots of out-of-print recordings that will and have never made it to digital formats, so there will always be a place for multiple media. But I do not chase vinyl any longer, although I still have my cache of 1000ish albums, and I really, really don't want to get rid of them yet. But that day is coming. I'm not going to foist them upon my kids to deal with decades from now (I hope).
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Re: LP versus CD sales
Posted by: decay
Date: October 21, 2021 10:02PM


Steve Jobs at home.



---
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Re: LP versus CD sales
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: October 22, 2021 07:59AM
Quote
decay


Steve Jobs at home.

Oh, the irony.
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Re: LP versus CD sales
Posted by: freeradical
Date: October 22, 2021 05:22PM
Quote
Dennis S
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
Quote
freeradical
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
Quote
Lux Interior
Quiz:

How many grooves are on one side of an LP that has 6 songs, each 3 minutes long?

The LP has a 12" diameter and spins at 33 1/3 RPM.

One.


What is the angular velocity after the end of the fourth song?

Depends on whether you're playing a single or album. smiling smiley

I do remember the last song on an album sounding like crap.


You probably had the cartridge overhang improperly adjusted.

When done correctly, the stylus should be tangent to the groove at two points.
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Re: LP versus CD sales
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: October 22, 2021 05:45PM
Quote
freeradical
You probably had the cartridge overhang improperly adjusted.

When done correctly, the stylus should be tangent to the groove at two points.

Huh? By definition, a tangent touches a curve at only one point.



It is what it is.
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Re: LP versus CD sales
Posted by: freeradical
Date: October 22, 2021 06:31PM
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
Quote
freeradical
You probably had the cartridge overhang improperly adjusted.

When done correctly, the stylus should be tangent to the groove at two points.

Huh? By definition, a tangent touches a curve at only one point.


That is correct, however, with a traditional tonearm, proper cartridge overhang adjustment gives you two points on the groove where the stylus is tangent to the groove. This is an extremely common procedure for setting up a turntable correctly.

There are even tools sold to facilitate this:

[www.google.com]



Quote

Tangency

To ensure the most accurate reproduction of the recording, low noise and least amount of wear on the record and stylus, it is important that the stylus is aligned in such a way that its tip remains as tangent to the record groove as possible as it travels across the record. With a pivoted tonearm, it is possible to achieve perfect tangency at only two points as the tonearm travels in an arc across the record. These two points are known as null points (points where there is no tracking error). A two-point cartridge alignment protractor can help achieve this tangency. You can download and print a two-point protractor from our website – just be sure to print the protractor to actual size. The LP5 comes with a printed protractor for convenience.


[audio-technica.com.au]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2021 06:35PM by freeradical.
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Re: LP versus CD sales
Posted by: Dennis S
Date: October 23, 2021 10:32AM
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
Quote
freeradical
You probably had the cartridge overhang improperly adjusted.

When done correctly, the stylus should be tangent to the groove at two points.

Huh? By definition, a tangent touches a curve at only one point.

This was in the days of laying a nickel on the cartridge on the cartridge so it would play.
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Re: LP versus CD sales
Posted by: ka jowct
Date: October 23, 2021 10:42AM
Not buying the argument that vinyl sounds better. A lot depends on how well the material was recorded. Culshaw's Ring Cycle, for example, sounds great on CD. What I hear from a good recording on CD is comparable to what I hear live in a concert hall, closer to reality than what I hear on vinyl. The absence of pops and clicks and all nastiness that goes with vinyl is a huge plus. Not fiddling with styli and alignment and tracking force is also a plus.



My life goes smoothly and in regular intervals
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