advertisement
Forums

The Forum is sponsored by 
 

AAPL stock: Click Here

You are currently viewing the Tips and Deals forum
Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: Blankity Blank
Date: October 21, 2021 10:11PM
Holy cats. One person accidentally shot and killed, and another wounded on the set of an Alec Baldwin western by Baldwin according to the initial reports.

CNN
”The prop firearm was discharged by actor and producer Alec Baldwin, 68, according to the Santa Fe County Sheriff's Office.

The female victim was identified as director of photography Halyna Hutchins, 42, according to investigators. She was transported to the hospital via helicopter and pronounced dead by medical personnel at University of New Mexico Hospital.

The other victim, 48-year-old director Joel Souza, was transported to Christus St. Vincent's Regional Medical Center by ambulance for care. Details on his condition were not released.”




National Suicide Prevention Hotline tel:1-800-273-8255

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: testcase
Date: October 21, 2021 10:48PM
This should get interesting.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: October 21, 2021 11:13PM
This should get interesting.


Indeed.

Whether the details are similar or not, it reminds me of Jon-Erik Hexsom and Brandon Lee.

Wholly preventable deaths because of lack of oversight and education.





Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody matters or nobody matters.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: Racer X
Date: October 21, 2021 11:39PM
Jesus Christ! I prey no one was stupid enough to have live ammo anywhere near the set or firearms.



********************************************
The police have no duty to respond. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) or Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: testcase
Date: October 22, 2021 12:25AM
"Prop" guns are rigged so that LIVE AMMO cannot be loaded. Some prop guns can fire "squib" loads or things like paint balls (which might be able to cause injury but death would be a real stretch. Somebody got some real explaining to do.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: Racer X
Date: October 22, 2021 01:19AM
There have been at least 2 fatalities from prop guns firing blanks, not counting this one.

Ales Baldwin is VERY anti-2nd Amendment. This is going to be very interesting.

It's so tragic because it has happened before, and never should have happened again.



********************************************
The police have no duty to respond. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) or Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: Blankity Blank
Date: October 22, 2021 03:53AM
The tinder for just about any gun related controversy is really missing here, so I expect only the fringes, on either side, to react in that fashion. No ‘if only there had been a good guy with a gun’. No ‘how could a person like that get a gun so easily’.

The likely cause is improper preparation or handling of the prop gun. So we’re not talking about a ‘civilian’ weapon, we’re talking about one that anyone would agree should have been rendered to a near harmless condition as its normal state.

I think there will be more of a mini mystery to be solved, than another round in The Debate.



National Suicide Prevention Hotline tel:1-800-273-8255

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: October 22, 2021 06:37AM
Most "prop guns" are real firearms loaded with rounds lacking a projectile. The so-called Blank round still contains a firing charge but in place of a bullet, there is usually a wad of paper.

In Brandon Lee's death, a projectile had jammed in the barrel and the so-called blank round still had the explosive compression to expel it. In Hexsom's, he held the weapon against his head, and the concussion from the firing of the blank fractured his skull.

On a film set, a special armorer is employed to oversee the weapons and their safe use. This investigation is going to be very interesting.



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.”
-- François de La Rochefoucauld

Growing older is mandatory. Growing up is optional.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: ztirffritz
Date: October 22, 2021 06:37AM
I believe that the other two deaths related to prop guns involved people uneducated in their use, and unaware of their risk/danger. They still fire hot gases and powder out the end that can injure or kill you at close range. There are different types of prop guns too. They should all be treated as live loaded real guns on set and handled the same way. The actors should ironically need to complete gun safety courses before handling prop guns.



**************************************
MacResource User Map: [www.zeemaps.com]#



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2021 06:38AM by ztirffritz.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: Acer
Date: October 22, 2021 08:26AM
IIRC from a "behind the scenes" stunt show with commentary at some tourist trap, the rule is that even prop guns should never be directly pointed at anyone. Achieve the appearance of direct aim from selecting the viewing angles.

That said, he could very well have been pointing away from any other actors. It could have been the crew that was where they should not have been.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: chopper
Date: October 22, 2021 08:31AM
I thought gun blast stuff was added in foley or whatever they call it?
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: October 22, 2021 08:40AM
Quote
Acer
IIRC from a "behind the scenes" stunt show with commentary at some tourist trap, the rule is that even prop guns should never be directly pointed at anyone. Achieve the appearance of direct aim from selecting the viewing angles.

That said, he could very well have been pointing away from any other actors. It could have been the crew that was where they should not have been.


....the morning news said often on sets, they also use 'shields' when working with weapons.....



_____________________________________

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: chopper
Date: October 22, 2021 09:30AM
My buddies wife was AD on the Brandon Lee film.

She lit the match when they burned all the footage even before the studio people got there.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: October 22, 2021 09:54AM
...the news this morning confirmed the gun had blanks....



_____________________________________

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: Paul F.
Date: October 22, 2021 10:21AM
That was once true... but things changed after Brandon Lee's death. Most prop guns you see in movies now are not real guns... they are "gas guns" that burn a bit of butane to cycle the action and make a bit of muzzle flash. The ones that need to use blanks for filming reasons are typically shot (camera shot, I mean) so the person firing it does not have to point it directly at a person.

I don't know the specifics of this production, of course, but would be shocked if the camera person did not at least have a lexan safety shield between her and the prop gun being used. At least, SHOULD have.

I think the investigation is going to point a BIG spot-light on the Armorer. Even if that Armorer is not charged criminally, I doubt they'll be working much in that position again.

Quote
Ombligo
Most "prop guns" are real firearms loaded with rounds lacking a projectile. The so-called Blank round still contains a firing charge but in place of a bullet, there is usually a wad of paper.

In Brandon Lee's death, a projectile had jammed in the barrel and the so-called blank round still had the explosive compression to expel it. In Hexsom's, he held the weapon against his head, and the concussion from the firing of the blank fractured his skull.

On a film set, a special armorer is employed to oversee the weapons and their safe use. This investigation is going to be very interesting.



Paul F.
-----
A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.

--

--

--
Eureka, CA
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: ka jowct
Date: October 22, 2021 10:26AM
Quote
ztirffritz
I believe that the other two deaths related to prop guns involved people uneducated in their use, and unaware of their risk/danger. They still fire hot gases and powder out the end that can injure or kill you at close range. There are different types of prop guns too. They should all be treated as live loaded real guns on set and handled the same way. The actors should ironically need to complete gun safety courses before handling prop guns.

I can understand an actor making that mistake far more than I can understand what our small town cop did (that got him fired). He was kidding around with a gun loaded with blanks and put it against the person with whom he was kidding and pulled the trigger. The victim survived, luckily.

Gives you an idea of who could be a cop back in the Barney Fife era.



My life goes smoothly and in regular intervals
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: macphanatic
Date: October 22, 2021 11:49AM
I wonder at the hypocrisy of Hollywood. Most are vehemently anti 2nd Amendment but are more than happy to make money with movies that glorify gun use and excessive violence.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: October 22, 2021 12:05PM
Quote
Paul F.
I think the investigation is going to point a BIG spot-light on the Armorer. Even if that Armorer is not charged criminally, I doubt they'll be working much in that position again.

I heard this on a call-in radio show during the drive in to work this morning. The caller was a special effects professional with many years experience in the industry (remember, I live in L.A.) who personally knows some of the crew on the shoot, so presumably the info is solid. Anyhow, take this info for what it's worth.

The caller stated that the special effects crew working this shoot is not a union crew. Furthermore, they are locals hired from wherever it is the movie is being shot. The implication was that they lacked both the knowledge and the experience to be functioning in this role for this or any film shoot.

On top of that, the caller stated that within the last week the film crew refused to work due to not having been paid in weeks. From what I understand, this is a VERY low-budget film - it sounds like the production has been experiencing cash flow problems. Obviously for this to have happened the crew must have gone back to work, but conditions on the shoot are clearly less than ideal.

Oh, and Baldwin is also a co-producer on the film.

This is going to get very interesting indeed.



It is what it is.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2021 12:05PM by N-OS X-tasy!.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: Paul F.
Date: October 22, 2021 12:23PM
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!

The caller stated that the special effects crew working this shoot is not a union crew. Furthermore, they are locals hired from wherever it is the movie is being shot. The implication was that they lacked both the knowledge and the experience to be functioning in this role for this or any film shoot.

I've been a competitive shooter since I was 16. I've been a firearms instructor for decades. I've been a gunsmith.
Given all that... *I* lack the knowledge and experience for that job. Hiring just any schmuck, especially if they are using live-fire, not deactivated "gas gun" as props (which, to be clear, we don't know yet...), is criminal negligence.

It is indeed going to get interesting. Even if Alec Baldwin hired sub-standard crew, and they did something they shouldn't due to inexperience, he's going to blame "the guns"... That's MY experience watching the debate for 40 years. The two sides to the argument really are; it's the operator, or it's not.



Paul F.
-----
A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.

--

--

--
Eureka, CA
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: Steve G.
Date: October 22, 2021 12:36PM
ooh Alec Baldwin=Pump Up The Headlines!

won't last nearly as long as 'missing white girl'
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: raz
Date: October 22, 2021 12:47PM
Quote
macphanatic
I wonder at the hypocrisy of Hollywood. Most are vehemently anti 2nd Amendment but are more than happy to make money with movies that glorify gun use and excessive violence.

Kirk Douglas turned down the lead role in Patton for that reason. Possibly an exceptional case.



--------------

Embarassing myself on the Internet since 1978.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: October 22, 2021 01:20PM
Quote
Paul F.
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!

The caller stated that the special effects crew working this shoot is not a union crew. Furthermore, they are locals hired from wherever it is the movie is being shot. The implication was that they lacked both the knowledge and the experience to be functioning in this role for this or any film shoot.

I've been a competitive shooter since I was 16. I've been a firearms instructor for decades. I've been a gunsmith.
Given all that... *I* lack the knowledge and experience for that job. Hiring just any schmuck, especially if they are using live-fire, not deactivated "gas gun" as props (which, to be clear, we don't know yet...), is criminal negligence.

It is indeed going to get interesting. Even if Alec Baldwin hired sub-standard crew, and they did something they shouldn't due to inexperience, he's going to blame "the guns"... That's MY experience watching the debate for 40 years. The two sides to the argument really are; it's the operator, or it's not.

The caller spent a few moments describing some of the safety measures used when live weapons are being used on set, including:
  • Assistant director is supposed to perform a final visual check of the gun prior to handing it to the actor
  • Crew members behind the camera are supposed to be protected behind a shield of some sort
It's not clear yet that these measures were not followed in this case, but that seemed to be the implication during the call.

The other thing he said is that the projectile in question may have been an actual bullet. That is highly speculative at this point (as was everything discussed during the call, actually), but I certainly hope that turns out NOT to be the case.



It is what it is.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: October 22, 2021 01:21PM
Quote
Steve G.
ooh Alec Baldwin=Pump Up The Headlines!

won't last nearly as long as 'missing white girl'

Shut up, Steve.



It is what it is.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: DP
Date: October 22, 2021 01:24PM
RULE NUMBER ONE: NEVER, EVER POINT A FIREARM AT ANYONE, EVEN IF YOU THINK IT'S UNLOADED, UNLESS YOU ARE MEANING TO USE SAID FIREARM! Such as in battle, or self-defense.

Ales(sic) Baldwin is VERY anti-2nd Amendment. This is going to be very interesting.

I wonder at the hypocrisy of Hollywood. Most are vehemently anti 2nd Amendment but are more than happy to make money with movies that glorify gun use and excessive violence.


This and this, in spades. And diamonds, and hearts. and clubs...





A throwback image to celebrate Autumn.

Disclaimer: This post is checked for correct spelling, punctuation, and grammar. Any attempts at humor are solely the responsibility of the author and bear no claim that any and all readers will approve or appreciate said attempt at humor.
My name is DP, and I approve this message.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: Paul F.
Date: October 22, 2021 01:31PM
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!

The caller spent a few moments describing some of the safety measures used when live weapons are being used on set, including:
  • Assistant director is supposed to perform a final visual check of the gun prior to handing it to the actor
  • Crew members behind the camera are supposed to be protected behind a shield of some sort
It's not clear yet that these measures were not followed in this case, but that seemed to be the implication during the call.

The other thing he said is that the projectile in question may have been an actual bullet. That is highly speculative at this point (as was everything discussed during the call, actually), but I certainly hope that turns out NOT to be the case.

A "final check" should most definitely be performed. As should a "bore/cylinder is clear of obstructions" check before it goes in the hand of whomever is tasked with loading the appropriate blank for the scene... Every gunsmith and instructor I know learned from Brandon Lee's accident.
A safety shield should most definitely be used (even blanks can spit pieces of brass a LONG way and draw blood)... If anything was used, it was inadequate for whatever came out the muzzle.

If there was so much as a single real projectile anywhere on set, or in the prop room/trailer, someone should go to prison over this. Same rule as in a firearms teaching classroom - NO LIVE AMMO EVER FOR ANY REASON in that space. I've attended classes where range-bags were inspected before they came into the classroom, and students sent home if they found a live round. No lesser standard should be used when they expect to be pointing a firearm-shaped-prop at a human.

I'm interested in hearing verifiable details on this one... The firearms industry/hobby has more than tripled the number of firearms in people's hands in the last 60 years, and reduced the number of firearms accidents by 80% in the same period. Anything we can learn from to reduce that even further is good.



Paul F.
-----
A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.

--

--

--
Eureka, CA



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2021 01:32PM by Paul F..
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: Steve G.
Date: October 22, 2021 01:57PM
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
Quote
Steve G.
ooh Alec Baldwin=Pump Up The Headlines!

won't last nearly as long as 'missing white girl'

Shut up, Steve.

funny,I don't see big continuous headlines for kids shot by real guns.
Maybe because they are not famous? (and never will be)


Just to be clear: I have nothing against a good discussion of prop safety on movie sets. This thread has been okay for that. I'm just getting tired of the tabloid murders and celebrity wallowing that headlines and substitutes for news nowadays. I think whole category of 'coverage' is especially irresponsible considering the real problems we are confronting on a daily basis.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2021 02:22PM by Steve G..
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: October 22, 2021 02:01PM
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
The caller stated that the special effects crew working this shoot is not a union crew. Furthermore, they are locals hired from wherever it is the movie is being shot. The implication was that they lacked both the knowledge and the experience to be functioning in this role for this or any film shoot.

The non-union status of the crew appears to have been confirmed:

Quote

The western film’s props, set decoration, special effects and construction departments were staffed by a New Mexico crew, the union email said, not Local 44 members. There were no Local 44 members on the call sheet.

[www.latimes.com]



It is what it is.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: October 22, 2021 02:02PM
Brandon Lee was killed because of a series of gun handling errors by a property master.

Erik-Hexum, probably the same, though I don't know if he'd been educated in basic gun handling rules and chose to ignore them.

I don't think a armorer was used in either case, just a prop master.

In all three of these incidents, somebody failed to properly check the weapons or 'props', or take control of them when not needed.

How the DOP and another person got shot is a question.

Pure speculation on my part, but that suggests a live round at the minimum.





Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody matters or nobody matters.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: Paul F.
Date: October 22, 2021 02:23PM
On the set of "Cover Up", cast were in a down time, and allowed to keep their prop guns with them... Hexum was screwing around, took 5 blanks out of the cylinder, spun it, said "Let's see how lucky I am" and put it to his temple and pulled the trigger. At contact distance, the blank had enough power to drive a disk of skull 3-4" into his brain.
He was NOT properly trained on how dangerous blanks were, and the prop-master/Armorer did not collect the prop-guns after "Cut" as he should have.
He was not lucky that day... he died several days later after several brain surgeries failed to stabilize him and save his life.

I agree that it sounds like a live round in this case... but, being skeptical that even the most ignorant doofus they could have hired could make that mistake, I'm holding judgement until we get more information.

I think Alec Baldwin is a @#$%&... but even I don't wish having to carry this on him. More than one person @#$%& up here... maybe his hiring non-union crew was part of it, maybe not. Maybe it was a live round, maybe not. A lot left to learn here before deciding who, if anyone, should be going to prison.

Quote
RAMd®d
Brandon Lee was killed because of a series of gun handling errors by a property master.

Erik-Hexum, probably the same, though I don't know if he'd been educated in basic gun handling rules and chose to ignore them.

I don't think a armorer was used in either case, just a prop master.

In all three of these incidents, somebody failed to properly check the weapons or 'props', or take control of them when not needed.

How the DOP and another person got shot is a question.

Pure speculation on my part, but that suggests a live round at the minimum.



Paul F.
-----
A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.

--

--

--
Eureka, CA
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: RgrF
Date: October 22, 2021 02:58PM
15 minutes ago from the LATimes:

Hours before actor Alec Baldwin fatally shot a cinematographer on the New Mexico set of “Rust” with a prop gun, a half-dozen camera crew workers walked off the set to protest working conditions.

The camera operators and their assistants were frustrated by the conditions surrounding the low-budget film, including complaints of long hours and pay, according to three people familiar with the matter who were not authorized to comment.

The camera crew showed up for work as expected at 6:30 a.m. Thursday and began gathering up their gear and personal belongings to leave, one knowledgeable crew member told the Los Angeles Times.

Labor trouble had been brewing for days on the dusty set at the Bonanza Creek Ranch near Santa Fe.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: Dennis S
Date: October 22, 2021 03:12PM
I have a feeling he was clowning around, trying to joke to lighten the mood.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: Blankity Blank
Date: October 22, 2021 03:33PM
Sources being referenced (mine included) are moving away from those actually present or those investigating the incident, so personally I consider them at least a step removed from ‘final word’ at this point.

LA Times
“A live single round was accidentally fired on set by the principal actor, hitting both the Director of Photography, Local 600 member Halyna Hutchins, and Director Joel Souza. Both were rushed to the hospital,” said an email sent to members of Local 44, a North Hollywood-based chapter of the International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees (IATSE).

Hutchins later died from the wound.

A source close to the union told The Times that it does not know what projectile was in the gun. The source also clarified that “live” — in reference to a “live single round” — is an industry term that refers to a gun being loaded with some material such as a blank ready for filming.




National Suicide Prevention Hotline tel:1-800-273-8255

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: Paul F.
Date: October 22, 2021 03:39PM
That was also from a representative of Local 44, who has already said that no Local 44 union members were on set when the accident happened - which makes me wonder how they know?
Things are going to get less clear, before they get more clear, in this case.

Quote
Blankity Blank
Sources being referenced (mine included) are moving away from those actually present or those investigating the incident, so personally I consider them at least a step removed from ‘final word’ at this point.

LA Times
“A live single round was accidentally fired on set by the principal actor, hitting both the Director of Photography, Local 600 member Halyna Hutchins, and Director Joel Souza. Both were rushed to the hospital,” said an email sent to members of Local 44, a North Hollywood-based chapter of the International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees (IATSE).

Hutchins later died from the wound.

A source close to the union told The Times that it does not know what projectile was in the gun. The source also clarified that “live” — in reference to a “live single round” — is an industry term that refers to a gun being loaded with some material such as a blank ready for filming.



Paul F.
-----
A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.

--

--

--
Eureka, CA
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: Blankity Blank
Date: October 22, 2021 03:41PM
Quote
Dennis S
I have a feeling he was clowning around, trying to joke to lighten the mood.

The only description I’ve read at this point describing the actual incident described it as they were rehearsing. That's a more plausible scenario to me, as unnecessarily firing the gun would have necessitated rechecking and resetting the prop, causing delays in the filming.



National Suicide Prevention Hotline tel:1-800-273-8255

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: Dennis S
Date: October 22, 2021 03:44PM
Quote
Blankity Blank
Quote
Dennis S
I have a feeling he was clowning around, trying to joke to lighten the mood.

The only description I’ve read at this point describing the actual incident described it as they were rehearsing. That's a more plausible scenario to me, as unnecessarily firing the gun would have necessitated rechecking and resetting the prop, causing delays in the filming.

You’re more likely right. I was just spitballing.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: Racer X
Date: October 22, 2021 04:36PM
[www.yahoo.com]

"There were two misfires on the prop gun and one the previous week, a source tells the Los Angeles Times, adding "there was a serious lack of safety meetings on this set."

Deadline confirms "at least one previous incident involving a misfiring of a weapon that was used days before in a scene."

"A gun had two misfires in a closed cabin," a source claimed. "They just fired loud pops — a person was just holding it in their hands and it went off."


"Generally, a prop master or licensed armorer oversees the handling of all weapons that are used on a set. It's unclear at this time who that person was on Rust. IATSE Local 44, a union that covers prop masters, sent an email saying the production's prop master was not a member."

YIKES!

And this is exactly why you have an experienced armorer or propmaster doing this work.



********************************************
The police have no duty to respond. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) or Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2021 04:48PM by Racer X.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: SDGuy
Date: October 22, 2021 04:51PM
Quote
Racer X
...gun had two misfires in a closed cabin," a source claimed...a person was just holding it in their hands and it went off."

? How does THAT happen. Assuming these are 19th Century firearms or firearms replicas, they'd have to be manually cocked in order to fire.

I could see possibly a worn sear (if the prop gun has either seen lots of use or has been abused) - such that with the hammer cocked, it could fall without having to pull the trigger.

But even with that potential malfunction, there should not be deadly projectiles involved (especially after Brandon Lee).
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: rich in distress
Date: October 22, 2021 05:04PM
Quote
chopper
She lit the match when they burned all the footage even before the studio people got there.

I hope that was not considered destruction of evidence.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: Paul F.
Date: October 22, 2021 05:06PM
Quote
SDGuy
Quote
Racer X
...gun had two misfires in a closed cabin," a source claimed...a person was just holding it in their hands and it went off."

? How does THAT happen. Assuming these are 19th Century firearms or firearms replicas, they'd have to be manually cocked in order to fire.

I could see possibly a worn sear (if the prop gun has either seen lots of use or has been abused) - such that with the hammer cocked, it could fall without having to pull the trigger.

But even with that potential malfunction, there should not be deadly projectiles involved (especially after Brandon Lee).

Yeah... my @#$%& detector just started beeping. A single action revolver with a mushed over sear or hammer notch (I'm looking at YOU EMF Co! You pieces of @#$%& for making parts of soft cheese!) might... but, 90% chance it was someone with their booger hook on the bang switch made it "just go off".



Paul F.
-----
A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.

--

--

--
Eureka, CA
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: Blankity Blank
Date: October 22, 2021 05:08PM
Local 44 is starting to get a little side eye from me, chirping so much ‘our sources tell us’ this that and the other dodgy thing was supposedly happening and ‘wasn’t us there’ stuff. Especially with a death involved, it just rubs me as being a little…opportunistic.

Quote
Paul F.
Yeah... my @#$%& detector just started beeping. A single action revolver with a mushed over sear or hammer notch (I'm looking at YOU EMF Co! You pieces of @#$%& for making parts of soft cheese!) might... but, 90% chance it was someone with their booger hook on the bang switch made it "just go off".

It’s still possible the shooter wasn’t doing anything untoward, but the victims were in the wrong spot — ‘getting a better angle/look’ or whatever — yeah?

And yes, yes I am going to now be using “booger hook” at every opportunity. big grin smiley



National Suicide Prevention Hotline tel:1-800-273-8255

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2021 05:16PM by Blankity Blank.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: Racer X
Date: October 22, 2021 05:15PM
Quote
Blankity Blank
Local 44 is starting to get a little side eye from me, chirping so much ‘our sources tell us’ this that and the other dodgy thing was supposedly happening and ‘wasn’t us there’ stuff. Especially with a death involved, it just rubs me as being a little…opportunistic.

It does sound very self-serving.



********************************************
The police have no duty to respond. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) or Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: October 22, 2021 05:27PM
Quote
Racer X
Quote
Blankity Blank
Local 44 is starting to get a little side eye from me, chirping so much ‘our sources tell us’ this that and the other dodgy thing was supposedly happening and ‘wasn’t us there’ stuff. Especially with a death involved, it just rubs me as being a little…opportunistic.

It does sound very self-serving.

Their intent is two-fold:
  1. To make it clear NOBODY from the union was involved.
  2. To call attention to just how badly things can go wrong when union personnel are NOT used for these shoots.
So, yes, the releases are meant to be self-serving. A bit political, too.



It is what it is.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: October 22, 2021 05:57PM
Quote
Steve G.
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
Quote
Steve G.
ooh Alec Baldwin=Pump Up The Headlines!

won't last nearly as long as 'missing white girl'

Shut up, Steve.

funny,I don't see big continuous headlines for kids shot by real guns.
Maybe because they are not famous? (and never will be)


Just to be clear: I have nothing against a good discussion of prop safety on movie sets. This thread has been okay for that. I'm just getting tired of the tabloid murders and celebrity wallowing that headlines and substitutes for news nowadays. I think whole category of 'coverage' is especially irresponsible considering the real problems we are confronting on a daily basis.

Then... I don't know - ignore them?



It is what it is.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: Racer X
Date: October 22, 2021 06:46PM
My only goal is to explain that firearms 99.9999% of the time don't go off by themselves. If the firearm is malfunctioning, STOP USING IT!!!!!!!!!!!!

And if it has gone off, 99.9999% of the time, someone made it go off.

You can load one, and beat the holy crap out of it with a hammer, and it shouldn't go off.

Accidental discharges aren't accidental 99.9999% of the time. Negligent discharges DO happen. Negligent maintenance/repairs, or negligent handling.

Accidental doesn't apply in this case.



********************************************
The police have no duty to respond. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) or Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: Blankity Blank
Date: October 22, 2021 07:53PM
A slightly more direct accounting of the events.

CNN
”In the call obtained by CNN affiliate KOAT, a crew member explains to the operator that help is needed for two people that had been “accidentally” shot on set at the Bonanza Creek Ranch.

“We need some help. A director and a camerawoman have been shot,” a woman tells the operator.

The woman also explains what had occurred before the prop firearm went off. “I was sitting, we were rehearsing and it went off, and I ran out, we all ran out,” the woman told the emergency operator.”




National Suicide Prevention Hotline tel:1-800-273-8255

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2021 07:55PM by Blankity Blank.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: Steve G.
Date: October 22, 2021 08:42PM
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
Quote
Steve G.
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
Quote
Steve G.
ooh Alec Baldwin=Pump Up The Headlines!

won't last nearly as long as 'missing white girl'

Shut up, Steve.

funny,I don't see big continuous headlines for kids shot by real guns.
Maybe because they are not famous? (and never will be)


Just to be clear: I have nothing against a good discussion of prop safety on movie sets. This thread has been okay for that. I'm just getting tired of the tabloid murders and celebrity wallowing that headlines and substitutes for news nowadays. I think whole category of 'coverage' is especially irresponsible considering the real problems we are confronting on a daily basis.

Then... I don't know - ignore them?

difficult to ignore when they are pushed at you in every known medium...in all caps, bulletin music and stentorian tones
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: October 22, 2021 09:16PM
Wow, this gets worse by the minute.


On the set of "Cover Up", cast were in a down time, and allowed to keep their prop guns with them...


You're right, the gun wasn't collected when the action stopped, and there was no armorer on staff, just property master.

And again, you're correct, nobody told anybody the dangers of blank rounds in guns.

As for the prop, it was a fully functional S&W Mod. 29, a real gun.

Even though it was used as a prop in the show, I differentiate between a functional firearm that can fire live ammo, and a prop that can't.

Any theatrical use of firearms needs an armorer, not a property master.

I believe the same applied to Brandon Lee's shooting death, regarding the lack of an actual armorer.

There were a series of incidents where 'live' dummy rounds and full power blanks were use.

Blanks were to be used in an actual firearm.

The director wanted a close up of the gun being loaded, so some brass with bullets seated, but no gun power were made for the seen.

To look authentic, primer caps wear also seated.

In a scene, the guy shot at Brandon, and the primer sent the bullet into but not out of the barrel.

The next time the scene was shot, a blank round was used and it was sufficient to fire the bullet in the barrel, ultimately killing Lee.

I had read at the time the other actor was supposed to aim to the side of Lee, but that it was Lee himself that said it didn't look realistic,

Not sure if that turned out to be the case.


I too would really like to know how a gun 'just went off'.

If it was a vintage single action that had the hammer resting on a live round, the chances of an AD, the gun 'just going off' wouldn't be all that surprising.

In the good ol' days a six-shooter was often cared with five rounds, with the hammer spur resting on an empty chamber.

Modern revolvers, at least with Smiths, have a small metal arm that keeps an uncocked hammer from traveling forward and striking a round in the chamber, even in a drop (for the most part).

So a WAG on my part, would be the hammer was actually cocked, and somebody inadvertently pulled the trigger.

But that there were two ADs earlier could mean a very defective weapon, and even a 'slightly' defective weapon is defective, and in need of repair or replacement.

STILL AND ALL, how did a live round get in the gun at a rehearsal, let alone at all.

And did Alec pull that trigger, ir did it just go off.

The news on the radio said it was a low budget film, but there are obviously places where the budget shouldn't be tight.

Angelina Jolie was an awesome actor-gun handler in the Tomb Raider pics, but she was sent to a two week school, and I imagine she got some lessons on gun safety.





Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody matters or nobody matters.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: Racer X
Date: October 22, 2021 09:23PM
Keanu Reeves extensively trained with numerous experts, and competes in 3 gun competitions for example.

Sounds like there was no budget for pay, much less for actual training and oversight.

Most full auto firearms seen on TV and in films are real full auto, or select fire weapons. They are rented, and the owner/armorer travels with them, does the training and acts as armorer. On NCIS LA, Deek's real life brother is a retired Navy SEAL, and is actually married to Kensi. So his love interest is his sister in-law. Anyway, there is lots of expertise on MOST sets.

I am getting pretty tired of the lax use of the term "Live ammo" in all the coverage. Live ammo is real bullet, and cartridge loaded with powder, and a live primer. Blanks have a primer, and sometimes a low powder charge, and either a crimped closed cartridge casing, or a plug or cardboard, plastic or a while ago, wax. In an older cap and ball revolver, you can at least see if there is a ball or bullet in the cylinder pretty easily. I have an original 1858 Remington Army and they are easy to check visually. Same with if there are percussion caps in place.

So a "blank" could drive that wadding/plug into someone and injure/kill at close range. That's why you NEVER EVER point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy. If someone hands you a firearm and says it isn't loaded, THEY ARE LYING until you have proven to yourself it is unloaded. I taught my partner's kids when they were little to not even trust their mom or I until they saw for themselves. Later on, they could tell something was partially disassembled, or safe all by themselves.



********************************************
The police have no duty to respond. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) or Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2021 09:36PM by Racer X.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: Paul F.
Date: October 22, 2021 10:06PM
A story I read just before leaving work this afternoon said the Cinematographer (who was killed) and the Assistant Director were both hit. The AD required going to the hospital, and it was too late for the Cinematographer.

No blank I've ever worked with would propel ANY bore obstruction, up to, and including, a real projectile, with that much power. I'm not saying that an "extra flashy-bangy" blank used by hollywood may not have enough power to bisect one person and seriously injure a second... but once again; something here is not adding up. I reload for more than 40 calibers of ammunition, from 19th century black powder to modern target cartridges... there are combinations that could do this, but, something is fishy here.

So many questions here...
Was it a blank with some kind of obstruction? Or was it an actual live cartridge with real projectile? There is a whole cascade of questions about Armorer/crew and why there might have been an obstruction or projectile there shouldn't have been in it.

Did it "just go off"? (99.999% chance the trigger was pulled - deliberately or not).

Was Mr. Baldwin "screwing around" and pointing it in a direction he should not have been? Or was it part of the scene to point-and-fire in that direction?

If it was part of the scene, why was there not a lexan shield in place? At many ranges, if there's a chance of EMPTY CASES hitting someone, a shield is put between shooters.

So many things just flat STINK about the whole situation...



Paul F.
-----
A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.

--

--

--
Eureka, CA



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2021 10:08PM by Paul F..
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Accidental fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin western
Posted by: Racer X
Date: October 23, 2021 12:13AM
Involuntary manslaughter pure and simple.

"Cinematographer Halyna Hutchins was shot in the chest on the set of a Western starring Baldwin. Director Joel Souza was wounded. The records said he was standing behind her."

That is NOT a "blank" That is a full load cartridge.



********************************************
The police have no duty to respond. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) or Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2021 12:59AM by Racer X.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.

Click here to login

Online Users

Guests: 98
Record Number of Users: 186 on February 20, 2020
Record Number of Guests: 5122 on October 03, 2020