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TMZ says Baldwin gun was used off-set for recreational target practice
Posted by: Dennis S
Date: October 24, 2021 02:17AM
[www.tmz.com]

I don’t know what their reputation says now but that makes perfect sense.
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Re: TMZ says Baldwin gun was used off-set for recreational target practice
Posted by: Mr645
Date: October 24, 2021 07:34AM
Why does the media keep calling it a "prop" gun. Prop guns are models, often plastic props that do not function. Alec was using a gun, a real firearm and he failed to use basic rules any gun owners knows.
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Re: TMZ says Baldwin gun was used off-set for recreational target practice
Posted by: space-time
Date: October 24, 2021 08:49AM
Quote
Mr645
Why does the media keep calling it a "prop" gun. Prop guns are models, often plastic props that do not function. Alec was using a gun, a real firearm and he failed to use basic rules any gun owners knows.

Maybe he is not a gun owner and does not know the rules? I don’t know much about the case and I withheld judgment, but I think he must feel terrible regardless of who is guilty here. I cannot imagine how it is to kill someone, let alone the parent of a 9 year old.
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Re: TMZ says Baldwin gun was used off-set for recreational target practice
Posted by: sekker
Date: October 24, 2021 09:06AM
A gun is a gun so long as it can kill people.

I agree that calling it anything else is absurd.
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Re: TMZ says Baldwin gun was used off-set for recreational target practice
Posted by: macphanatic
Date: October 24, 2021 09:53AM
Alec is just another hypocrite. Will his tweet about Cheney's accidental shooting come back to haunt him?
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Re: TMZ says Baldwin gun was used off-set for recreational target practice
Posted by: JoeH
Date: October 24, 2021 11:25AM
Quote
macphanatic
Alec is just another hypocrite. Will his tweet about Cheney's accidental shooting come back to haunt him?

Awfully bold statement on your part. He was handed a gun that was selected by an AD, that was declared "cold", i.e. not loaded. He will probably be kicking himself for trusting that AD and not doing his own checks assuming he knew how to for the rest of his life, but that does not make him a hypocrite.
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Re: TMZ says Baldwin gun was used off-set for recreational target practice
Posted by: Mr645
Date: October 24, 2021 12:38PM
Anyone handing a gun should have basic training on how to safely handle it. Someone hands me a gun and tells me it's unloaded, the first thing I do is aim it in a safe direction, rack the slide and drop the mag or open the barrel to check. Even if I watched the last person do the same thing, you repeat it.

Even in my home if I show someone a hand gun that has never handled guns, it takes a couple of minutes to simply explain that regardless of what you think, assume the gun is loaded. Show them how to check. Even an actor on set needs to know the basics of gun safety.

When lives are at stake you don't take shortcuts, we just saw the result.

Or may the fact that the victim is the wife of a lawyer from a firm that represented the Clinton's..... But that's an entirely different discussion. LOL
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Re: TMZ says Baldwin gun was used off-set for recreational target practice
Posted by: space-time
Date: October 24, 2021 01:22PM
How was the second person hurt? Did he fire twice or the same shot? I didn’t see any details on this.
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Re: TMZ says Baldwin gun was used off-set for recreational target practice
Posted by: Dennis S
Date: October 24, 2021 01:27PM
Quote
space-time
How was the second person hurt? Did he fire twice or the same shot? I didn’t see any details on this.

Don’t quote me but I think the projectile went through the first person.
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Re: TMZ says Baldwin gun was used off-set for recreational target practice
Posted by: Randalls
Date: October 24, 2021 01:36PM
It was a western. If it was a ‘peacemaker’ model it would most likely be a single action (pull the hammer back before it will fire). I doubt if the first round went off it would not be a knee jerk reaction to cock and fire a second time. If she was shot in the chest I doubt if a blank wad would have penetrated far enough to harm the director. It sounds as if a live round was loaded in the cylinder and this was an error by the armorer as no live rounds should be on set. Also, if I was the AD I would check the cylinder before handing this gun out, so lack of experience.
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Re: TMZ says Baldwin gun was used off-set for recreational target practice
Posted by: Ammo
Date: October 24, 2021 01:59PM
I don’t see how Baldwin could reasonably be held responsible for what happened. It’s not his job to make sure everyone is safe on the set



Where is there dignity unless there is also honesty? - Cicero

Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a battle you know nothing about. —Wendy Mass
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Re: TMZ says Baldwin gun was used off-set for recreational target practice
Posted by: prymsnap
Date: October 24, 2021 02:40PM
Quote
Ammo
I don’t see how Baldwin could reasonably be held responsible for what happened. It’s not his job to make sure everyone is safe on the set

As an actor: no. As a producer: possibly. While he likely wasn't involved in nitty-gritty like crew hires (lesser mortals with the word "producer" somewhere in their title would be tasked with that), Baldwin's producer position places him in a supervisory role with the show's other producers and managers. It was a producer at some level who approved hiring the armorer, AD, propmaster, etc.
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Re: TMZ says Baldwin gun was used off-set for recreational target practice
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: October 24, 2021 03:29PM
Quote
Dennis S
Quote
space-time
How was the second person hurt? Did he fire twice or the same shot? I didn’t see any details on this.

Don’t quote me but I think the projectile went through the first person.

Yes. One projectile, passed through the first person, struck the second person.



It is what it is.
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Re: TMZ says Baldwin gun was used off-set for recreational target practice
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: October 24, 2021 04:01PM
Dennis S posted an excellent link below from an actual armorer about gun safety on a set.

It's excellent reading, even for one who thinks they know weapon handling.

An actor only needs to know one thing - always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction.

Sure, if they want to know how check and safe a weapon for there comfort level, fine.

But it's the armorer's job to put the weapon in the hands of the actor, in an appropriate condition for the action or scene.

Yes, had he been trained and checked the weapon, this might have been avoided, but I hold that's not his responsibility.

Pointing the muzzle at someone and pulling the trigger would be, however, and if that's what happened I'd call that negligence.

'It just went off' doesn't cut it.

He's not only an actor in this film but a producer, I believe, so he's likely responsible at some level for overall safety on the set, and seeing corners are not needlessly cut.

It seems there were several previous concerns about that weapon and safety in general, prior to the killing.


If someone hands me a semi-auto to examine, there is a level of trust from 0-100% that is present, so weather I check a weapon or not depends on the situation.

For a semi-auto, drop the mag first, then lock the slide back, then check the breech and barrel.

A loaded auto would be cleared with this drill, with the exception of an obstruction in the barrel, which would have to be cleared.

A modern double action revolver merely needs the cylinder opened, while a single action 'western-style' revolver would need the cylinder rotated and each chamber checked.

There may be specialty weapons that need a different drill, but I can't think of any at the moment, at least regarding the context of this thread.



I doubt if the first round went off it would not be a knee jerk reaction to cock and fire a second time.


Maybe I'm parsing this wrong, but maybe you meant to say it wouldn't be a knee-jerk reaction to cock and fire a second time?

I agree, it's an involved operation that would be awkard to do a second time, once surprised by the first round being fired.

However, if one was expecting a blank to fire and the scene called for multiple shots in succession, I think someone might be able to fire twice before realizing someone was hurt and something was horribly wrong.

I'm not saying that what happened at all, and I have no indication it did, it's must a mention of a possibility, however remote or unlikely.

Had it been a single-acton semi-auto, the possiblity of a second AD would be a very real possibility.

Many police agencies have gone to double action only firearms to reduce that possibility.


That there are two victims is puzzling, but the answer will be simple, once known.

It doesn't seem likely to me that a blank would cause both death and injury to two people, even if it involved something stuck in the barrel, such as a bullet in the death of Brandon Lee.

So for the moment, I consider the possibility and likelihood of actual live ammo in the gun.

There's been no mention of what was in it, or how many chambers were loaded.

I've read about misguided attempts of DIY defensive rounds of loaded two bullets (one modified) into a brass case, but that doesn't seem likely.

I've also read about a poorly seated primer in a revolver causing two simultainious discharges from a weapon, one from the barrel and one from a cylinder, but never saw any real documentation, so that could be just an urban legend.

Again a WAG, if it were actual ammo, it would most probably be a solid, round nose bullet, the most common configuration for cheap bulk ammo, but not something likely to be found on a movie set.

But it might be something someone would pick up for casual shooting 'over the weekend' or whatever.

Yes, it's best to wait for more information before making any real judgements, especially considering as forumites, what we think or say about this has no weight whatsoever.





Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody matters or nobody matters.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: TMZ says Baldwin gun was used off-set for recreational target practice
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: October 24, 2021 04:05PM
Quote
prymsnap
Quote
Ammo
I don’t see how Baldwin could reasonably be held responsible for what happened. It’s not his job to make sure everyone is safe on the set

As an actor: no. As a producer: possibly.

This.



It is what it is.
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Re: TMZ says Baldwin gun was used off-set for recreational target practice
Posted by: qdog2
Date: October 24, 2021 04:37PM
Quote
macphanatic
Alec is just another hypocrite. Will his tweet about Cheney's accidental shooting come back to haunt him?

He also tweeted to Dana Loesch calling her a murder after the Parkland shooting in Florida. Even though she had nothing to do with it.



Portsmouth, Va
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Re: TMZ says Baldwin gun was used off-set for recreational target practice
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: October 24, 2021 05:51PM
We'll know more when the investigation is done, so I won't go there.

I would be interested to know what is the (previous) norm for actors handling firearms. Do they place trust in the armorer and crew or do they also check/clear the weapon themselves? I'm not asking what should be done, but what has been routinely done.

My uneducated guess is trust was placed and few checked for themselves. I would also guess that is a procedure that just changed. Alternatively, I could also see lawyers telling actors not to accept any responsibility for checking. Doing so could open the actor to liability if something goes wrong.



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.”
-- François de La Rochefoucauld

Growing older is mandatory. Growing up is optional.
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Re: TMZ says Baldwin gun was used off-set for recreational target practice
Posted by: graylocks
Date: October 24, 2021 07:07PM
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
Quote
prymsnap
Quote
Ammo
I don’t see how Baldwin could reasonably be held responsible for what happened. It’s not his job to make sure everyone is safe on the set

As an actor: no. As a producer: possibly.

This.

JSYK, in the movie industry more often than not the title of producer goes to those who put up the money. In live theater they are referred to as backers. I often chuckle as the credits roll on a film that lists a dozen or more people as "Producers."

They don't have any day-to-day oversight. Perhaps at best they approve the hiring of the major roles who are directly responsible for production. It's a bit more complex if Baldwin was investor and on the set as actor but if I was in that position I could see assuming I hired the best folks and then staying out of their way as they did their job instead of micromanaging.



"Success isn't about how much money you make. It is about the difference you make in people's lives."--Michelle Obama
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Re: TMZ says Baldwin gun was used off-set for recreational target practice
Posted by: Randalls
Date: October 24, 2021 07:30PM
I thought I did say it would not be a ‘reflex’ to fire a second time using a single action revolver. Also, been doing some reading that a safe solution is to use a lexan shield between actor and camera (to protect the lens and camera only) and use remote control, moving any personnel out of the line of fire and remotely monitoring the scene..

This from a member of the crew might shed some light if accurate info.

“ My vision of the RUST tragedy

I have received hundreds of calls, text messages, letters with words of support and condolences since the day of the tragedy with Halyna Hutchins, and I'm very grateful to everyone. Yes, I knew Halyna, not for a year. I worked with Her on almost all of her films. Sometimes we've shared food and water. We've been burning under the sun, freezing in the snow on the shoots. We took care of each other. Yes, I can say with 100% confidence she was my friend.
WAS!!!
I also received many calls from different mass media sources from multiple countries asking to tell what happened; also from numerous institutes and universities for the students to know what needs the most attention.
Yes, I was standing shoulder-to-shoulder with Halyna during this fatal shot that took her life and injured the director Joel Souza. I was holding her in my arms while she was dying. Her blood was on my hands.
I want to tell my opinion on why this has happened. I think I have the right to do it.
It's the fault of negligence and unprofessionalism.
The negligence from the person who was supposed to check the weapon on the site did not do this; the person who had to announce that the loaded gun was on the site did not do this;
the person who should have checked this weapon before bringing it to the set did not do it.
And the DEATH OF THE HUMAN IS THE RESULT!
I'm sure that we had the professionals in every department, but one - the department that was responsible for the weapons. There is no way a twenty-four-year-old woman can be a professional with armory; there is no way that her more-or-less the same-aged friend from school, neighborhood, Instagram, or God knows where else, can be a professional in this field.
Professionals are the people who have spent years on sets, people who know this job from A to Z; These are the people who have the safety on set at the level of reflexes; they do not need to be told to put the sandbag on a tripod, fix the ladder on the stage, or fence off the explosion site. They have it in their blood.
I'm calling out to the Producers!
We have a fascinating and amazing job, but it's also dangerous. We film in the mountains, in the open water, underwater. We have explosions, shooting guns, car crashes, electricity after all, and much more.
To save a dime sometimes, you hire people who are not fully qualified for the complicated and dangerous job, and you risk the lives of the other people who are close and your lives as well.
I understand that you always fight for the budget, but you cannot allow this to happen. There should always be at least one professional in each department who knows the job. It is an absolute must to avoid such a tragedy, like the tragedy with Halyna.
I do not wish anyone to go through what I went through, what her husband @Matt Hutchins and her son Andros went through, and the actor Alec Baldwin, who has been handed a gun on set. He has to live with the thought that he took the life of the human because of unprofessional people.
Dear Producers, by hiring professionals, you are buying peace of mind for yourself and the people around you. It is true that the professionals can cost a little more and sometimes can be a little bit more demanding, but it is worth it. No saved penny is worth the LIFE of the person!
And finally, dear Producers, please remember that it's not you who are giving the opportunities to the people you hire make their money; it's the people you hire who help You make Your money. Remember this!
I also want to thank the camera operator @Ried Russell, who was with us and helped save Halyna. Thank you to the set medic @Cherlyn Schaefer who did everything she could to save Halyna's life.
We all loved Halyna.
May God Bless her soul.
Rest in Peace.
And God protect Us All.”
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Re: TMZ says Baldwin gun was used off-set for recreational target practice
Posted by: graylocks
Date: October 24, 2021 07:47PM
And, in case we think for a second that any topic is safe from conspiracy theories, I just found this on my Facebook feed.

This is someone commenting on the feed of one of my Facebook Friends. If she was actually on my friends list i would have unfriended her. Life is to short for nut jobs.

Alec Baldwin is an Admiral in the royal Naval Academy. He knows how to handle a gun.
(As are all the main actors and directors royal military. We just don't disclose this.)
How do you "accidently" shoot TWO people - with two rounds?
I believe they staged the shooting and its purpose is to get us talking about gun control.
Hollywood - the military - often stages the deaths of operatives when they are changing positions.
They call it "Witness Protection" in the movies. Protection from the "mob". The "mob" they mean is the public - the dangerous crowd that won't leave celebrities alone. WE are the deadly mob to them they need protecting from.
So I don't think anyone was really hurt.
It's NOT "conspiracy" when NO ONE GETS HURT.
I worked in legal and entertainment in Century City / Beverly Hills for 40 years.
EVERYONE in Hollywood is royal military intelligence.
Hollywood was founded by the King's cousin - the fake killed Romanovs.
They fake kill people all the time. They do it for military strategy and they do it for safety.
It's not a 'conspiracy' because no one gets hurt. Look up words before you toss them around.
Every mainstream actor and director is multi-generational Hebrew royalty.
Jesus's relatives - the man who STARTED the whole "fake kill" as strategy / safety thing.
And he was military too. He "rose" as Augustus Caesar.
All the gun talk in the coming weeks will be as a result of Alec Baldwin's fake shooting.
They are ACTORS. When they are in the news, they are ACTING.
Hollywood is the creator of 'fake news'. Open your eyes! Wise up.




"Success isn't about how much money you make. It is about the difference you make in people's lives."--Michelle Obama
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Re: TMZ says Baldwin gun was used off-set for recreational target practice
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: October 24, 2021 08:17PM
Quote
graylocks
And, in case we think for a second that any topic is safe from conspiracy theories, I just found this on my Facebook feed...

Report it.



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Re: TMZ says Baldwin gun was used off-set for recreational target practice
Posted by: graylocks
Date: October 24, 2021 08:21PM
Quote
Sarcany
Quote
graylocks
And, in case we think for a second that any topic is safe from conspiracy theories, I just found this on my Facebook feed...

Report it.

Seriously? Not that I doubt you but this is so far out there to me I wouldn't even think it rises (or sinks) to the level of needing to be reported.



"Success isn't about how much money you make. It is about the difference you make in people's lives."--Michelle Obama
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Re: TMZ says Baldwin gun was used off-set for recreational target practice
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: October 24, 2021 08:51PM
Quote
graylocks
Quote
Sarcany
Quote
graylocks
And, in case we think for a second that any topic is safe from conspiracy theories, I just found this on my Facebook feed...

Report it.

Seriously? Not that I doubt you but this is so far out there to me I wouldn't even think it rises (or sinks) to the level of needing to be reported.

It's turning up in your feed. It could be copy/pasted all over Facebook and turning up in thousands or millions of feeds.

Facebook relies on reporting to identify false/deceitful posts. Their AI doesn't know what fake news and conspiracy/hoaxes are without people reporting it.

Report it.



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Re: TMZ says Baldwin gun was used off-set for recreational target practice
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: October 24, 2021 08:54PM
I thought I did say it would not be a ‘reflex’ to fire a second time using a single action revolver.


That is absolutely unambiguous.


What you said:

I doubt if the first round went off it would not be a knee jerk reaction to cock and fire a second time.


In my mind:

I doubt if the first round went off it would be a knee jerk reaction to cock and fire a second time.

made sense, but

I doubt if the first round went off it would not be a knee jerk reaction to cock and fire a second time

didn't.

For the record, I thought you meant that a second shot wouldn't be a 'reflex' action, and just wanted to be sure, hence my comment.





Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody matters or nobody matters.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: TMZ says Baldwin gun was used off-set for recreational target practice
Posted by: Randalls
Date: October 24, 2021 09:28PM
I understand, confusing wording.
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Re: TMZ says Baldwin gun was used off-set for recreational target practice
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: October 25, 2021 08:34AM
I doubt there was second shot (and none from a grassy knoll either)

The director already said he was leaning over the back of the victim. I've read that the revolver was Colt .45 Single Action Peacemaker. A round from that weapon would easily pass through a person's torso and into another if it did not strike any formable bone. Striking a rib would deflect it, not stop it. That would explain how a chest shot could also strike the second person in the shoulder.



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.”
-- François de La Rochefoucauld

Growing older is mandatory. Growing up is optional.
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Re: TMZ says Baldwin gun was used off-set for recreational target practice
Posted by: Lux Interior
Date: October 25, 2021 09:20AM
Why was he aiming at the cinematographer?

I mean, he shouldn't have been pointing it at anybody, but why her? Was she standing in for another actor?
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Re: TMZ says Baldwin gun was used off-set for recreational target practice
Posted by: Lux Interior
Date: October 25, 2021 09:22AM
Quote
Mr645
Anyone handing a gun should have basic training on how to safely handle it.

No way.

My RKBA is absolute from God.
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Re: TMZ says Baldwin gun was used off-set for recreational target practice
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: October 25, 2021 09:39AM
Quote
Lux Interior
Why was he aiming at the cinematographer?

I mean, he shouldn't have been pointing it at anybody, but why her? Was she standing in for another actor?

We can only guess. I suspect that he wasn't deliberately pointing the gun at anyone in particular. They were probably trying to get a good angle on the gunfire and she ended up in front of it with the camera operator next to her and the director behind her.

One might better ask, why wasn't she behind a lexan/perspex shield if they were going for an angle where the gun *might* be pointed in her direction.

...

Wondering how many armorers and pro masters are receiving apologies now for being called "crazy" and "too strict" and "over-cautious" on set.







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2021 09:40AM by Sarcany.
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Re: TMZ says Baldwin gun was used off-set for recreational target practice
Posted by: Blankity Blank
Date: October 25, 2021 09:58AM
Quote
Sarcany
Quote
Lux Interior
Why was he aiming at the cinematographer?

I mean, he shouldn't have been pointing it at anybody, but why her? Was she standing in for another actor?

We can only guess. I suspect that he wasn't deliberately pointing the gun at anyone in particular. They were probably trying to get a good angle on the gunfire and she ended up in front of it with the camera operator next to her and the director behind her.

One might better ask, why wasn't she behind a lexan/perspex shield if they were going for an angle where the gun *might* be pointed in her direction.

With only a “cold” gun supposedly on set, not hard to imagine safety procedures slipping for ‘just a second’ while this or that got done or a shield not put in place until it’s sure where a camera is going to be set up.

Human nature. I won’t lie, I could even imagine myself doing it ‘this one time’.



National Suicide Prevention Hotline tel:1-800-273-8255

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
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Re: TMZ says Baldwin gun was used off-set for recreational target practice
Posted by: Paul F.
Date: October 25, 2021 11:28AM
I keep coming back to one thing; that was a live round. Not a blank. Not an obstructed bore with a primer behind it.
A real, full charge, .45 Colt (?) round.

Between any "prop" firearm being used on a movie set, to being used for target practice, back to being put in the "rack" to be used for filming, to being put in the Actors hands... there are SO MANY levels of complete and utter safety failure there, it's ridiculous.

A lexan shield SHOULD have been in front of any human who was to be in front of the muzzle of anything that goes "bang" on set. In the case of a REAL round being loaded, it wouldn't have helped much. It still should have been there.

There is no reason it should have been pointed at people. If you need that camera angle, then put the people on one side of the camera, and an "aiming spot" on the other.

I won't even get into the number of people that should have checked that firearm every time it was picked up between using it for target practice and the moment it went into Baldwins hand.

If Baldwin had hiring authority over the Armorer, he should be part of any negligence charge or suit. If he didn't, then, as much as I detest him personally, the failure here wasn't his (except perhaps hiring people that were clueless...).

I've said it before; just the fact there was a live round anywhere on the set is grounds to shut down production and do a FULL safety review including a full strip/clean/inspect/safety check of all firearm props (real or "prop").



Paul F.
-----
A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.

--

--

--
Eureka, CA
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Re: TMZ says Baldwin gun was used off-set for recreational target practice
Posted by: Paul F.
Date: October 25, 2021 11:36AM
Quote
Blankity Blank

With only a “cold” gun supposedly on set, not hard to imagine safety procedures slipping for ‘just a second’ while this or that got done or a shield not put in place until it’s sure where a camera is going to be set up.

Human nature. I won’t lie, I could even imagine myself doing it ‘this one time’.

I was a gunsmith... I handled guns 6-10 hours a day. I understand the temptation.
But this is why we have those rules and follow them religiously, sometimes to the point of seeming absurd... "I JUST WATCHED YOU clear it, before you handed it to me, why do I have to clear it again?"...

Because safety is a habit - you either do it every single time, or this is what happens when you don't.

In a bad way, this reminds me of an industrial accident at one of the lumber mills about 25 years ago... Two experienced workers and one "newbie" were killed. Nobody knows exactly the order things happened, but they bypassed SEVERAL safety lockouts, and safety procedures.... It appeared that one was injured in a debarking machine, and other two failed to lock out the machine, failed to lock the brake, and failed to call for help... they tried to rended aid, and... the machine rotated. (I won't describe it... suffice to say it was a bad end). They were found when the next shift arrived.
MULTIPLE LAYERS of safety rules were ignored to cause that accident. Just like this one.
If just ONE of those had been followed, it wouldn't have happened. Just ONE. Instead, NONE of them were followed.



Paul F.
-----
A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.

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Eureka, CA
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Re: TMZ says Baldwin gun was used off-set for recreational target practice
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: October 25, 2021 12:22PM
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Blankity Blank
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Sarcany
One might better ask, why wasn't she behind a lexan/perspex shield if they were going for an angle where the gun *might* be pointed in her direction.

With only a “cold” gun supposedly on set, not hard to imagine safety procedures slipping for ‘just a second’ while this or that got done or a shield not put in place until it’s sure where a camera is going to be set up.

Human nature. I won’t lie, I could even imagine myself doing it ‘this one time’.

EXACTLY the sort of thing that is ABSOLUTELY not supposed to happen on set - not even once.



It is what it is.
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Re: TMZ says Baldwin gun was used off-set for recreational target practice
Posted by: Randalls
Date: October 25, 2021 01:17PM
It is a rough trade.
[en.m.wikipedia.org]
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Re: TMZ says Baldwin gun was used off-set for recreational target practice
Posted by: Blankity Blank
Date: October 25, 2021 01:27PM
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N-OS X-tasy!
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Blankity Blank
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Sarcany
One might better ask, why wasn't she behind a lexan/perspex shield if they were going for an angle where the gun *might* be pointed in her direction.

With only a “cold” gun supposedly on set, not hard to imagine safety procedures slipping for ‘just a second’ while this or that got done or a shield not put in place until it’s sure where a camera is going to be set up.

Human nature. I won’t lie, I could even imagine myself doing it ‘this one time’.

EXACTLY the sort of thing that is ABSOLUTELY not supposed to happen on set - not even once.

In full agreement with the sentiment, but I’m also aware of the foibles of human (including me) nature.

That said, I will give myself (partial?) credit for having a sense of when I’m crossing or pushing boundaries. In an instance like this, if I were to relent or unable to stop the breaking procedure, I will go into a sort of preemptive damage control. Become hyper vigilant of where the threat lies, insist that if it’s going to happen danger is at least mitigated (eg insisting all guns down or holstered, etc.).

None of that makes the infraction “okay” or even less stupid. It is a part of myself cultivated to, along with luck, hopefully ratchet a ‘Darwin Award’ situation down to a Stupid Human Trick. Even given that, I would have nothing to say in my defense were I, rightfully, appropriately disciplined.



National Suicide Prevention Hotline tel:1-800-273-8255

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
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Re: TMZ says Baldwin gun was used off-set for recreational target practice
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: October 25, 2021 03:44PM
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N-OS X-tasy!
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Sarcany
One might better ask, why wasn't she behind a lexan/perspex shield if they were going for an angle where the gun *might* be pointed in her direction.

With only a “cold” gun supposedly on set, not hard to imagine safety procedures slipping for ‘just a second’ while this or that got done or a shield not put in place until it’s sure where a camera is going to be set up.

Human nature. I won’t lie, I could even imagine myself doing it ‘this one time’.

EXACTLY the sort of thing that is ABSOLUTELY not supposed to happen on set - not even once.

In full agreement with the sentiment, but I’m also aware of the foibles of human (including me) nature.

Methinks you're missing the point. There are people on set whose ONLY REASON for being there is to ensure something like this NEVER happens. These people get paid GOOD MONEY to ENSURE nothing like this ever happens. They are expected to be perfect 100% of the time - it is understood that "human nature" is to PLAY NO PART in the preparations for these shoots.

To bring "human nature" into the discussion is pretty much the same as saying "@#$%& happens," shrugging one's shoulders and calling it a day.



It is what it is.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2021 03:45PM by N-OS X-tasy!.
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Re: TMZ says Baldwin gun was used off-set for recreational target practice
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: October 25, 2021 04:06PM
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N-OS X-tasy!
Methinks you're missing the point. There are people on set whose ONLY REASON for being there is to ensure something like this NEVER happens. These people get paid GOOD MONEY to ENSURE nothing like this ever happens. They are expected to be perfect 100% of the time - it is understood that "human nature" is to PLAY NO PART in the preparations for these shoots.

Yeah, at least three people from what I'm reading: Armorer, prop-master, 1st assistant director.

They all failed.

Off the top of my head...

Shouldn't have both the blanks and live ammo on site at all, let alone in the same room. Shouldn't have let anyone take the guns out to go target-shooting. Should have checked in every weapon and emptied them when they came back. Shouldn't have been a loaded weapon on-site. Shouldn't have put them on a cart in the open without checking/tagging. Shouldn't have left a cart with guns unsupervised. Shouldn't have grabbed a gun without checking with the armorer or prop-master. Shouldn't have called it "cold" without knowing it was cold. Shouldn't have had it on-set without protection and supervision. Shouldn't have let the actor bring anyone into line of fire.



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Re: TMZ says Baldwin gun was used off-set for recreational target practice
Posted by: Blankity Blank
Date: October 25, 2021 04:19PM
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N-OS X-tasy!
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Blankity Blank
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N-OS X-tasy!
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Blankity Blank
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Sarcany
One might better ask, why wasn't she behind a lexan/perspex shield if they were going for an angle where the gun *might* be pointed in her direction.

With only a “cold” gun supposedly on set, not hard to imagine safety procedures slipping for ‘just a second’ while this or that got done or a shield not put in place until it’s sure where a camera is going to be set up.

Human nature. I won’t lie, I could even imagine myself doing it ‘this one time’.

EXACTLY the sort of thing that is ABSOLUTELY not supposed to happen on set - not even once.

In full agreement with the sentiment, but I’m also aware of the foibles of human (including me) nature.

Methinks you're missing the point. There are people on set whose ONLY REASON for being there is to ensure something like this NEVER happens. These people get paid GOOD MONEY to ENSURE nothing like this ever happens. They are expected to be perfect 100% of the time - it is understood that "human nature" is to PLAY NO PART in the preparations for these shoots.

To bring "human nature" into the discussion is pretty much the same as saying "@#$%& happens," shrugging one's shoulders and calling it a day.

Not at all. At no point have I suggested “calling it a day”.

In examining the situation, I am simply making note that expectations of perfection 100% of the time, no matter how warranted, will, and have, failed numerous times due to the persistence of human nature.

It is a given that procedures need to be in place and that we must learn from these instances of failure and continue to try and find ways to refine the procedures, even to the point of re-examining whether there even are any set of procedures that will suffice for the task as we’d like it to be or whether the very need for the task be continued if it cannot be done with an agreed level of safety.

That has really been at the core of the entire discussion the entire time.



National Suicide Prevention Hotline tel:1-800-273-8255

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
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Re: TMZ says Baldwin gun was used off-set for recreational target practice
Posted by: Randalls
Date: October 26, 2021 01:14AM
So if the person who’s job it is to maintain gun safety fails by announcing the gun is ‘safe’ and hands it over to the talent are they liable for manslaughter charges?
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Re: TMZ says Baldwin gun was used off-set for recreational target practice
Posted by: Paul F.
Date: October 26, 2021 10:14AM
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Randalls
So if the person who’s job it is to maintain gun safety fails by announcing the gun is ‘safe’ and hands it over to the talent are they liable for manslaughter charges?

If I am responsible for maintaining a hydraulic press, and fail to repair it, sign off on it as being repaired, then tell the operator it's repaired, and it blows up and kills the operator, I would be charged with manslaughter. So, yes. He should be. Whether he WILL be or not is another question.



Paul F.
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A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.

--

--

--
Eureka, CA
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Re: TMZ says Baldwin gun was used off-set for recreational target practice
Posted by: macphanatic
Date: October 26, 2021 12:37PM
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Randalls
So if the person who’s job it is to maintain gun safety fails by announcing the gun is ‘safe’ and hands it over to the talent are they liable for manslaughter charges?

A well known self-defense attorney has publicly stated that under the law in New Mexico and almost all States would not preclude Alec from being charged. Ultimately, he is responsible for pulling the trigger. He went on to state that because all of the previous safety issues on set, there was even more reason for Alec to be even more cautious.
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