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Official outline/timeline of the “Rust” movie shooting
Posted by: Blankity Blank
Date: October 26, 2021 05:42PM
Details at CNN.

”The cast and crew of "Rust" had just returned from lunch when it happened.

One minute, producer-star Alec Baldwin and a handful of others were rehearsing a scene in a wooden church on a dusty Old West movie set meant to look like 1880s Kansas. The next minute, two people were bleeding from gunshot wounds -- one of which would prove to be fatal -- and everyone was reeling from confusion and shock.”


According to the article,
  • The shooting occurred during an active rehearsal. They were not filming, but actors and technicians were present going through a scene, checking angles, etc.
  • The victims were behind the camera viewing the scene as Baldwin rehearsed drawing the gun in an atypical ‘cross draw’ fashion; drawing the gun with the hand on the side opposite the gun.
  • The scene required Baldwin to point the gun toward the camera.
  • The gun used, that discharged, was one of three in fact placed on the cart it was taken from by the armorer.
  • David Halls, the Assistant Director, exited the church where the rehearsal was taking place, and retrieved the gun from the cart outside. He returned and loudly announcing “cold gun” — standard, recognized industry jargon for “unloaded gun” — to those assembled.



    National Suicide Prevention Hotline tel:1-800-273-8255

    I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.



    Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2021 06:07PM by Blankity Blank.
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Re: Official outline/timeline of the “Rust” movie shooting
Posted by: testcase
Date: October 26, 2021 08:14PM
Oopsie............ facepalm
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Re: Official outline/timeline of the “Rust” movie shooting
Posted by: Racer X
Date: October 26, 2021 08:21PM
I'm sorry. I don't care that it was a movie set. I don't care what the protocols are. If Baldwin doesn't get charged with involuntary manslaughter, then no one should for an unintended fatal shooting.



********************************************
The police have no duty to respond. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) or Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)
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Re: Official outline/timeline of the “Rust” movie shooting
Posted by: macphanatic
Date: October 26, 2021 08:39PM
Quote
Racer X
I'm sorry. I don't care that it was a movie set. I don't care what the protocols are. If Baldwin doesn't get charged with involuntary manslaughter, then no one should for an unintended fatal shooting.

Agreed.

Hollywood should require that anyone who handles any type of firearm take a gun safety class.
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Re: Official outline/timeline of the “Rust” movie shooting
Posted by: Racer X
Date: October 26, 2021 08:45PM
Quote
macphanatic
Quote
Racer X
I'm sorry. I don't care that it was a movie set. I don't care what the protocols are. If Baldwin doesn't get charged with involuntary manslaughter, then no one should for an unintended fatal shooting.

Agreed.

Hollywood should require that anyone who handles any type of firearm take a gun safety class.

Or at least demand that the person handing them the firearm PROVE to the talent that it is unloaded. And have witnesses to showing it is cleared.



********************************************
The police have no duty to respond. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) or Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)
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Re: Official outline/timeline of the “Rust” movie shooting
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: October 26, 2021 08:56PM
Quote
macphanatic
Quote
Racer X
I'm sorry. I don't care that it was a movie set. I don't care what the protocols are. If Baldwin doesn't get charged with involuntary manslaughter, then no one should for an unintended fatal shooting.

Agreed.

Hollywood should require that anyone who handles any type of firearm take a gun safety class.

That stuff is spelled out in union contracts.

And the union employees walked off due to poor working conditions and contract-violations.



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Re: Official outline/timeline of the “Rust” movie shooting
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: October 27, 2021 06:56AM
So many levels of assumption and stupidity in this situation.
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Re: Official outline/timeline of the “Rust” movie shooting
Posted by: Paul F.
Date: October 27, 2021 12:22PM
Looking more and more like I was right a couple days ago.

A LONG chain of ignorant, or maliciously stupid, violations of safety rules they knew they should be operating under... the following of ANY ONE OF WHICH would have prevented the accident - and NONE of them were followed. None.

I can play both sides of the "actor should be trained" argument... For one thing, there are actors that I would not trust with anything safety related no matter how much training they've had, because they are too arrogant or incompetent to carry out the basic safety rules.
Now, that doesn't mean don't TRY to train them.... but, a trained and competent Armorer/Instructor should be the final safety authority, and the person that puts a "live" gun in the actors hand, or holster, and the last person to open that action and assure that it is loaded with what it's supposed to be loaded with, and nothing else.

I don't care if it's Keanu Reeves, or Alec Baldwin - an Assistant Director should never be the one handing them a functional firearm shaped object.

Sounds very much like the AD should be the one going to prison. Mr. Baldwin is already punishing HIMSELF for being incompetent. The AD was criminally negligent.



Paul F.
-----
A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.

--

--

--
Eureka, CA
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Re: Official outline/timeline of the “Rust” movie shooting
Posted by: Racer X
Date: October 27, 2021 12:33PM
I pulled this from a firearms forum where there are a LOT of lawyers and current/former LEOs, and a few magistrates and Judge Pro Tems

In New Mexico, these are the instructions to the jury in an involuntary manslaughter trial

Involuntary manslaughter

14-231. Involuntary manslaughter; essential elements.1

For you to find the defendant guilty of involuntary manslaughter [as charged in Count ________],2 the state must prove to your satisfaction beyond a reasonable doubt each of the following elements of the crime:

1. __________________ (name of defendant) ______________________________ (describe defendant's act);

2. ________________________ (name of defendant) should have known of the danger involved by ________________________'s (name of defendant) actions;

3. ________________________ (name of defendant) acted with a willful disregard for the safety of others;

4. ________________________'s (name of defendant) act caused the death of ________________________ (name of victim);

5. This happened in New Mexico on or about the ________ day of ______________, ________.

USE NOTES

1. This instruction is used in all involuntary manslaughter prosecutions.

2. Insert the count number if more than one count is charged.

[As amended, effective August 1, 1997.]

Committee commentary. — See Section 30-2-3B NMSA 1978. See generally LaFave & Scott, Criminal Law 586-94 (1972). Manslaughter committed by a lawful act done in an unlawful manner or without due caution and circumspection requires a showing of criminal negligence, i.e., conduct which is reckless, wanton or willful. State v. Grubbs, 85 N.M. 365, 512 P.2d 693 (Ct. App. 1973).


Yeah, he knew that if it had live rounds in it, and he pulled the trigger while pointed at a human, bad things would happen.

By accepting someone else's word, and not checking himself, he acted with willful disregard for the safety of others by not checking himself, and by pointing, and pulling the trigger.

It caused the death, and it was in New Mexico.

You can also see that, by changing the appropriate wording, the AD should be guilty too. The guilt of the person putting it ON the cart is kind of murky. Not really any info at this time.



********************************************
The police have no duty to respond. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) or Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/27/2021 12:39PM by Racer X.
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Re: Official outline/timeline of the “Rust” movie shooting
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: October 27, 2021 01:58PM
Quote
Paul F.
I can play both sides of the "actor should be trained" argument... For one thing, there are actors that I would not trust with anything safety related no matter how much training they've had, because they are too arrogant or incompetent to carry out the basic safety rules.

This is EXACTLY why I believe the actor should not be included as part of the process and procedures of ensuring the safety of an on-set weapon.

Suffice to say there are actors who would struggle to determine something as simple as which end of the weapon the bullet shoots from.



It is what it is.
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Re: Official outline/timeline of the “Rust” movie shooting
Posted by: rich in distress
Date: October 27, 2021 02:02PM
I think lines 2 and 3 become moot when the person in charge declared the weapons cold.
That’s the issue, and of course it’s only my pov.

Because he’s an actor, and he is supposed to be prancing around, doin’ the cowboy or whatever his part called for.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/27/2021 02:05PM by rich in distress.
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Re: Official outline/timeline of the “Rust” movie shooting
Posted by: Racer X
Date: October 27, 2021 02:16PM
Quote
rich in distress
I think lines 2 and 3 become moot when the person in charge declared the weapons cold.
That’s the issue, and of course it’s only my pov.

Because he’s an actor, and he is supposed to be prancing around, doin’ the cowboy or whatever his part called for.

If I told you a pistol wasn't loaded, you took it from my hand, pointed it at your wife and pulled the trigger, and she died, you think you are off the hook?

I'm not trying to be an ass, I am genuinely wanting to know. willful means it wasn't an accident, it was done on purpose, and disregard is you don't take circumstances into account. You pointed it and pulled the trigger on purpose. You intentionally didn't check yourself, and disregarded common sense by not checking yourself, or never asked me to prove to you it wasn't loaded.



********************************************
The police have no duty to respond. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) or Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)
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Re: Official outline/timeline of the “Rust” movie shooting
Posted by: rich in distress
Date: October 27, 2021 03:09PM
No no no… your question is well taken, and your opinions very much respected, and my opinions on the other hand, are primitive and most likely naive.
So I agree I wouldn’t be off the hook at all, and you’d probably be clear.
But the real situation is totally different IMO, because he was using a movies’ gun. There was a team of people that was supposed to prevent guns from being guns.
As silly as that reads, I hope my point can be seen.
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Re: Official outline/timeline of the “Rust” movie shooting
Posted by: Racer X
Date: October 27, 2021 03:44PM
I do see your point. Just as a bartender over serving you is at fault, you getting behind the wheel is YOUR fault. The bartender failed you, but you failed yourself. Diminished capacity, sure, but you chose to drive to the bar in the first place. You could have taken a Lyft/Uber. That's just protecting yourself. That's why its manslaughter instead of murder. You didn't mean to, but it still happened.

Checking the cylinder yourself, is protecting yourself in case others failed you. And it's protecting everyone around you as well.

No secret here I am pro personal firearm ownership. At no point do I ever say I don't think there shouldn't be some very reasonable , but inviolate, protections built into the system. One being if you are unsure, don't touch. Prove competency before ownership, through licensing. And in Baldwin's case, and everyone else in TV/Movies, go through some training before they ever get handed a functional firearm. Get certified by the Guild/Union. ON TOP OF all the things that were required to be in place that weren't.

Hey, my partner's brothers will still check a firearm that I hand them, even after they just watched ME clear it. Same with my partner, same with my shooting buddy, and the rangemaster at my range. Reagan was 100% right. Trust, but Verify. No shame or insult intended.

@#$%& across the country don't do this, and people needlessly die. Don't blame the firearm. 99.999% of the time, the firearm isn't at fault.

In this case, even if the revolver were damaged or defective, it should've been checked, and the rounds removed, and it was free to fall apart in Baldwin's hand without causing any harm.

I'm a hardass when lives are at risk, especially someone else's. If I do something stupid and die as a result, that's my problem. But if I take someone else out? That's EVERYONE'S problem.


Not only did that woman die, the other man was wounded, that woman's family will hurt for the rest of their lives. Those crew members will be deeply affected for years as well. The immediate effect is no one is working either. Baldwin hurting from this? Well, his own ignorance or hubris caused it.

Everyone screwed up. Especially Baldwin. Regardless of the culture on the set, regardless of union rules and procedures, he should have always checked every time he had a firearm in his hands. As a human being in possession of a firearm, HE had the ultimate responsibility. If he didn't know how, he should have learned. That's his personal responsibility to himself, and everyone around him.

Yahoos across the country who don't operate this way are the ones shooting others negligently or are letting it happen because they aren't holding accountable those around them operating unsafely. I say negligently, because unless it was the 0.001% of the time the firearm was actually at fault, it was no accident, it was negligence.

I should never be on a jury because I believe in personal responsibility.



********************************************
The police have no duty to respond. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) or Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)
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Re: Official outline/timeline of the “Rust” movie shooting
Posted by: Blankity Blank
Date: October 27, 2021 04:20PM
Baldwin was following established industry protocol of adhering to the guidance of more than one schooled professional — more than one weapons master has been quoted during this that maintaining safety protocols are a part of the AD’s portfolio — as to the state of the weapon. Only so many cooks in the kitchen. No second guessing, which can bring problems of its own.

That does not involve either hubris or ignorance. Finding fault with regard to that leans more toward having some type of personal bias towards Baldwin than an objective weighing of circumstances and the context within which they occurred.



National Suicide Prevention Hotline tel:1-800-273-8255

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
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Re: Official outline/timeline of the “Rust” movie shooting
Posted by: rich in distress
Date: October 27, 2021 04:29PM
Haha…I strongly agree with you, Racer.
But I think the precise analogy would be a bartender handing a glass with napalm instead of the expected H2O plus drops of color.
Anyway… so sad.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/27/2021 04:30PM by rich in distress.
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Re: Official outline/timeline of the “Rust” movie shooting
Posted by: Racer X
Date: October 27, 2021 04:38PM
When lives are at stake double or triple checking isn't a bad thing. We had 3 separate and distinct checks for shorting plugs when working on explosives. Plus a personal check we agreed on, that wasn't standard practice. We still had an unintended energetic event. A ground squirrel chewed a wire between safety checks and it shorted. No one got injured, but it could have been deadly.

I guess the situation is he wasn't required to check. I haven't seen or heard anything about not allowed to check. And everything revolves around is it prudent to check anyway, or negligent to not check anyway.

Lives CAN be lost by not checking. Lives CAN'T be lost by checking. What does a reasonable and safe person do?



********************************************
The police have no duty to respond. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) or Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/27/2021 04:47PM by Racer X.
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Re: Official outline/timeline of the “Rust” movie shooting
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: October 27, 2021 04:45PM
Still not knowing exactly what transpired, my current take on Baldwin's potential culpability is that

in any other situation, he could have taken the AD's advice in complete confidence.

Even without having firearms training (which I say needn't be a requirement) he should have been told and should be held responsible for pointing a firearm in the direction of people.

It requires no extensive training to obey the first rule of gun handling – keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction.

Practicing one's draw still needs to be done safely.

In this particular situation, with at least three huge red flags, I'm not sure a case can't be made that he was additionally negligent.

In which case, were it me I'd check the firearm's status.

In an environment where that's verboten, I'd call the armorer over and ask them to check it out while I observed.

No doubt some might bristle at the implied 'Are you sure you did your job right?' but I think a true professional might understand anyone's concern for reassurance and be happy to oblige.

I still say Baldwin has a tough row to hoe, and it doesn't appear to be undeserved.





Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody matters or nobody matters.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: Official outline/timeline of the “Rust” movie shooting
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: October 27, 2021 05:01PM
Quote
Blankity Blank
Baldwin was following established industry protocol of adhering to the guidance of more than one schooled professional — more than one weapons master has been quoted during this that maintaining safety protocols are a part of the AD’s portfolio — as to the state of the weapon. Only so many cooks in the kitchen.

And it is imperative that the cooks in this particular kitchen are highly trained and certified to be there. That excludes 99.99999999999999999% of all actors.



It is what it is.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/27/2021 08:30PM by N-OS X-tasy!.
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Re: Official outline/timeline of the “Rust” movie shooting
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: October 27, 2021 06:33PM
Quote
Racer X
Everyone screwed up. Especially Baldwin. Regardless of the culture on the set, regardless of union rules and procedures, he should have always checked every time he had a firearm in his hands. As a human being in possession of a firearm, HE had the ultimate responsibility...

He co-wrote it. He sold it. He described it as his "passion project."

It was his production company, El Dorado Pictures, that was making the film.

Whether or not he was actually making the decisions, he was the man on top.

He had everyone working 14+ hour days and pulled the budget for hotels and transportation.

He was responsible for the union workers walking out.

He hired the local/unskilled laborers to replace the union workers.

He was responsible for hiring an assistant director with a history of life-endangering recklessness.

And its his insurance that will probably pay for this whole thing to go away, including fixing his reputational harm by poisoning Google to make all of the records of the event fade back 20-pages in the search results a year from now.



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