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Howard Oakley: Using an M1 Mac: some basic principles
Posted by: numbered
Date: November 10, 2021 09:37AM
The discussion below about booting off an M1reminds me of the recent post about the difference in system architecture of the M series. This is not just the hardware, but the whole security/hardware/system and how it differs from our Intel expertise. The sealed system that we started to see with Big Sur is now a huge part of reality. I think we have touched on most of this in various forum posts, but this is the cleanest summary I have seen

His intro:
Quote

M1 series Macs are different in almost every respect from the Intel Macs which have preceded them. Most days, someone emails me asking whether it’s possible to clone macOS from their internal SSD and use it for recovery, or any of thousands of variations. This article explains the basics of using an M1 Mac, including how to provide for disaster recovery, so that you can decide how best to set yours up. Although M1 Macs have some unique restrictions, in many ways they’re among the most flexible of Apple’s recent models. Learning how not to come into conflict with their restrictions, and how to get the best of their flexibility, is essential if you’re going to get the most out of your M1 Mac.
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Re: Howard Oakley: Using an M1 Mac: some basic principles
Posted by: mikebw
Date: November 10, 2021 10:35AM
That was a good read, thanks for posting.
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Re: Howard Oakley: Using an M1 Mac: some basic principles
Posted by: rich in distress
Date: November 10, 2021 10:55AM
Good reminder (for others, I’m all in haha).
Thanks for posting!
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Re: Howard Oakley: Using an M1 Mac: some basic principles
Posted by: Spiff
Date: November 10, 2021 11:27AM
So what that tells me is that CCC, super duper and other cloning software have little to no role in the M1 architecture? It sounds like recovery is all in Time Machine, which I personally do not like. I have never gotten it to work correctly. Might be operator error, but it's been consistent through 4-5 computers.
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Re: Howard Oakley: Using an M1 Mac: some basic principles
Posted by: sekker
Date: November 10, 2021 11:36AM
Quote
Spiff
So what that tells me is that CCC, super duper and other cloning software have little to no role in the M1 architecture? It sounds like recovery is all in Time Machine, which I personally do not like. I have never gotten it to work correctly. Might be operator error, but it's been consistent through 4-5 computers.

I use CCC as a complement to TM for daily backups of data on my M1 Mac Mini. Works fine.
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Re: Howard Oakley: Using an M1 Mac: some basic principles
Posted by: jdc
Date: November 10, 2021 12:07PM
Im a TM and backblaze. I used to have CCC running, but it just seemed to eat up processing.

Backing up my 4 TB work drive to an 8 TB drive seemed to take CCC 20 minutes.... even if there was only a few things to backup. It scans everything?

Maybe I had it setup wrong, but for basic backup... it was more complicated than I needed I guess.





Edited 999 time(s). Last edit at 12:08PM by jdc.
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Re: Howard Oakley: Using an M1 Mac: some basic principles
Posted by: MrNoBody
Date: November 10, 2021 12:11PM
Excellent, "fresh" info; thanks numbered !
This explains it perfectly for me...

Quote
eclecticlight -
Contrary to some opinion, M1 Macs are straightforward to boot from an
external SSD, although you must never confuse that process with
booting an Intel Mac from an external disk. In the latter, the whole of the
boot process can run from the external SSD. M1 Macs invariably start
their boot process from their internal SSD, and only then transfer to the
external boot system.



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Re: Howard Oakley: Using an M1 Mac: some basic principles
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: November 10, 2021 12:19PM
It's a shame Time Machine sucks so bad.

Failure of the just the SSD, while very rare, means your Mac is unrepairable electronic waste.



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Re: Howard Oakley: Using an M1 Mac: some basic principles
Posted by: richorlin
Date: November 10, 2021 01:31PM
Quote
Filliam H. Muffman
It's a shame Time Machine sucks so bad.

Failure of the just the SSD, while very rare, means your Mac is unrepairable electronic waste.

Not really. Apple can always replace the internal SSD. If you have made a backup of your data drive, which CCC Super Duper do fine, then you can restore that and you are back in business.
It may take a little onger than with an Intel Mac, but it's do-able.



richorlin



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2021 01:32PM by richorlin.
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Re: Howard Oakley: Using an M1 Mac: some basic principles
Posted by: Zoidberg
Date: November 10, 2021 02:47PM
Quote
sekker
I use CCC as a complement to TM for daily backups of data on my M1 Mac Mini. Works fine.

This. I've always gone for Star Trek levels of triple redundancy. I've got two rotating CCC clones and a Time Machine backup running on my Mac.



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Re: Howard Oakley: Using an M1 Mac: some basic principles
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: November 10, 2021 05:07PM
Quote
richorlin
Quote
Filliam H. Muffman
It's a shame Time Machine sucks so bad.

Failure of the just the SSD, while very rare, means your Mac is unrepairable electronic waste.

Not really. Apple can always replace the internal SSD.

Apple has no infrastructure in place to do this themselves, and the companies that they have associated with in the past are terrible for quality and how they treat workers.



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Re: Howard Oakley: Using an M1 Mac: some basic principles
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: November 10, 2021 06:21PM
Quote
Filliam H. Muffman
Quote
richorlin
Quote
Filliam H. Muffman
It's a shame Time Machine sucks so bad.

Failure of the just the SSD, while very rare, means your Mac is unrepairable electronic waste.

Not really. Apple can always replace the internal SSD.

Apple has no infrastructure in place to do this themselves, and the companies that they have associated with in the past are terrible for quality and how they treat workers.

They do have the "infrastructure."

Not only has Apple replaced dozens of SSDs (and where the SSD was soldered to the logic board they have replaced the logic board) for me in the past, but so have several Apple Certified repair places.

Perhaps you're thinking of some other component?

Are you referring to some specific experience you've had or is this opinion from some anecdote you've heard?



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Re: Howard Oakley: Using an M1 Mac: some basic principles
Posted by: sekker
Date: November 10, 2021 08:13PM
Quote
Sarcany
Quote
Filliam H. Muffman
Quote
richorlin
Quote
Filliam H. Muffman
It's a shame Time Machine sucks so bad.

Failure of the just the SSD, while very rare, means your Mac is unrepairable electronic waste.

Not really. Apple can always replace the internal SSD.

Apple has no infrastructure in place to do this themselves, and the companies that they have associated with in the past are terrible for quality and how they treat workers.

They do have the "infrastructure."

Not only has Apple replaced dozens of SSDs (and where the SSD was soldered to the logic board they have replaced the logic board) for me in the past, but so have several Apple Certified repair places.

Perhaps you're thinking of some other component?

Are you referring to some specific experience you've had or is this opinion from some anecdote you've heard?

When Apple replaced the motherboard on this 13" 2018MBPR, they replaced the SSD at the same time. They did not give me the option to have my SSD transferred to the new motherboard (which I would have preferred).
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Re: Howard Oakley: Using an M1 Mac: some basic principles
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: November 10, 2021 08:41PM
Quote
sekker
Quote
Sarcany
Quote
Filliam H. Muffman
Quote
richorlin
Quote
Filliam H. Muffman
It's a shame Time Machine sucks so bad.

Failure of the just the SSD, while very rare, means your Mac is unrepairable electronic waste.

Not really. Apple can always replace the internal SSD.

Apple has no infrastructure in place to do this themselves, and the companies that they have associated with in the past are terrible for quality and how they treat workers.

They do have the "infrastructure."

Not only has Apple replaced dozens of SSDs (and where the SSD was soldered to the logic board they have replaced the logic board) for me in the past, but so have several Apple Certified repair places.

Perhaps you're thinking of some other component?

Are you referring to some specific experience you've had or is this opinion from some anecdote you've heard?

When Apple replaced the motherboard on this 13" 2018MBPR, they replaced the SSD at the same time. They did not give me the option to have my SSD transferred to the new motherboard (which I would have preferred).

The SSD and logic board are paired on a T2 Intel Mac and the data on the SSD is hardware-encrypted.

On those T2 Macs where the SSD is not soldered to the board, if you replace the logic board the SSD gets wiped and needs to be paired to the new logic board with a special tool.

On Macs like yours where the SSD is soldered to the board, you get a new SSD with the new logic board. There's no other choice.

M1 Macs use a system-on-chip. If the CPU/GPU/RAM or SSD fails, they have to replace the logic board to fix it, and this will replace all of those components.



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Re: Howard Oakley: Using an M1 Mac: some basic principles
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: November 11, 2021 11:37AM
Quote
Sarcany
Quote
sekker
Quote
Sarcany
Quote
Filliam H. Muffman
Quote
richorlin
Quote
Filliam H. Muffman
It's a shame Time Machine sucks so bad.

Failure of the just the SSD, while very rare, means your Mac is unrepairable electronic waste.

Not really. Apple can always replace the internal SSD.

Apple has no infrastructure in place to do this themselves, and the companies that they have associated with in the past are terrible for quality and how they treat workers.

They do have the "infrastructure."

Not only has Apple replaced dozens of SSDs (and where the SSD was soldered to the logic board they have replaced the logic board) for me in the past, but so have several Apple Certified repair places.

Perhaps you're thinking of some other component?

Are you referring to some specific experience you've had or is this opinion from some anecdote you've heard?

When Apple replaced the motherboard on this 13" 2018MBPR, they replaced the SSD at the same time. They did not give me the option to have my SSD transferred to the new motherboard (which I would have preferred).

The SSD and logic board are paired on a T2 Intel Mac and the data on the SSD is hardware-encrypted.

On those T2 Macs where the SSD is not soldered to the board, if you replace the logic board the SSD gets wiped and needs to be paired to the new logic board with a special tool.

On Macs like yours where the SSD is soldered to the board, you get a new SSD with the new logic board. There's no other choice.

M1 Macs use a system-on-chip. If the CPU/GPU/RAM or SSD fails, they have to replace the logic board to fix it, and this will replace all of those components.

My understanding is Apple had no in-house repair facilities in the US the last time a (somewhat) reliable news organization checked. They were all third party locations, usually with long histories of chronic management issues and/or abusive hiring/pay practices. Rossmann and others have documented this, and Apple's design choices that continually march towards hardware that is unrepairable by independent companies.

There is typically zero chance of getting your computer back with it's data intact.

If your computer is covered by AppleCare and you have a recent complete/valid Time Machine backup, it should take less than an hour to be up and running after your replacement arrives. In practice, this happens infrequently for people that are not both experienced with Time Machine and extremely conscientious about keeping backups current.



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Re: Howard Oakley: Using an M1 Mac: some basic principles
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: November 11, 2021 03:01PM
Quote
Filliam H. Muffman
My understanding is Apple had no in-house repair facilities in the US the last time a (somewhat) reliable news organization checked.

No. That's BS. Apple Stores and certified Apple Service Providers can do most repairs on-site. Apple overnights the parts via FedEx when there's an authorized repair.

Five minutes ago I was standing next to a guy who completed more than a half-dozen Apple authorized repairs before lunch today.

...There are nevertheless a lot of repairs that justify mailing a device out to a depot, and when COVID hit many stores were closed or under-staffed so they mailed out a lot more than usual to deal with the overflow.

Apple's depots are typically well-managed and inspected regularly. However, there's one depot in Houston that Apple shares with other companies -- Dell, Lenovo and others -- that has had some serious management problems and made the news last year for accusations that it was run like a sweatshop. I don't know whether all of the problems have been addressed. They're still using that depot.

Quote
Filliam H. Muffman
There is typically zero chance of getting your computer back with it's data intact.

Certainly low odds now. Because the data is encrypted and the SSD is logically tied to the logic board, swapping either one makes the other unusable without a special burn-in procedure, and in the case of recent laptops the SSD is soldered to the logic board so there's no swap to make in that case.

(Swapping a top-case, display, PSU, thunderbolt port, speaker, hinges, WiFi/BT modules and other components would not involve a logic board or SSD swap, so would not put your data at risk.)

But we were talking about retaining the SSD, not retaining the data.

...Also, Apple warns people that they should have a backup before checking in a device for a repair.
[support.apple.com]

Quote
Filliam H. Muffman
If your computer is covered by AppleCare and you have a recent complete/valid Time Machine backup, it should take less than an hour to be up and running after your replacement arrives.

I do a lot of Time Machine restores. A typical restore from a hard-disk Time Machine backup usually runs about 100GB/hr with a minimum of roughly a half hour, and potentially extends overnight if you have a lot of small files or an especially slow drive (notoriously Western Digital Blue 2.5-inch or Apple 2.5-inch or those "micro" 1.8-inch drives from Iomega).

Transferring from SSD is considerably faster (and from a Time Capsule is considerably slower), but few people back up to SSD.



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Re: Howard Oakley: Using an M1 Mac: some basic principles
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: November 11, 2021 04:25PM
Quote
Sarcany
Quote
Filliam H. Muffman
My understanding is Apple had no in-house repair facilities in the US the last time a (somewhat) reliable news organization checked.

No. That's BS. Apple Stores and certified Apple Service Providers can do most repairs on-site. Apple overnights the parts via FedEx when there's an authorized repair.

Five minutes ago I was standing next to a guy who completed more than a half-dozen Apple authorized repairs before lunch today.

ASP is not in-house. I may be a little dated on Apple Store back room workings, but they never do 'repairs' that involve soldering chips/components that are embargoed to independents.



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Re: Howard Oakley: Using an M1 Mac: some basic principles
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: November 11, 2021 07:36PM
Quote
Filliam H. Muffman

ASP is not in-house. I may be a little dated on Apple Store back room workings, but they never do 'repairs' that involve soldering chips/components that are embargoed to independents.

Nobody re-solders chips on the logic board in an authorized repair.

I think you're making stuff up now.



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Re: Howard Oakley: Using an M1 Mac: some basic principles
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: November 11, 2021 09:45PM
Quote
Sarcany
Quote
Filliam H. Muffman

ASP is not in-house. I may be a little dated on Apple Store back room workings, but they never do 'repairs' that involve soldering chips/components that are embargoed to independents.

Nobody re-solders chips on the logic board in an authorized repair.

Then how does a SSD on a motherboard get replaced? What does a repair involve these days? Is it blindly swapping components like a keyboard, battery, display, or a motherboard until the computer passes a hardware check (and then run the software to pair the new DRM module)? That hardly qualifies as repair, it's only slightly more complicated than something a trained monkey could do.



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Re: Howard Oakley: Using an M1 Mac: some basic principles
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: November 11, 2021 10:18PM
Quote
Filliam H. Muffman
Quote
Sarcany
Quote
Filliam H. Muffman

ASP is not in-house. I may be a little dated on Apple Store back room workings, but they never do 'repairs' that involve soldering chips/components that are embargoed to independents.

Nobody re-solders chips on the logic board in an authorized repair.

Then how does a SSD on a motherboard get replaced? What does a repair involve these days? Is it blindly swapping components like a keyboard, battery, display, or a motherboard until the computer passes a hardware check (and then run the software to pair the new DRM module)? That hardly qualifies as repair, it's only slightly more complicated than something a trained monkey could do.


Nothing is blindly/randomly swapped.

For obvious stuff like keyboard-damage or a liquid-spill, they replace the visibly-damaged components.

For other issues, they run an Apple Service Toolkit test suite which either queries chips on the various components for errors or checks for variance from baselines, and reports problems.

Components that can be replaced in an authorized repair will either screw or snap in or be secured with special adhesives.

If a SSD is not soldered to the logic board, it will usually secure in a slot with a screw to hold it down. If the SSD-component is defective and it's soldered to the logic board then the whole logic board will be replaced.

You seem to think that replacing a logic board is something a monkey could do. It's often a fiendishly complicated task.

Once the machine is together again, they run other tests such as trackpad-calibration (which certainly can get tedious) and a quick "MRI" test before it's ready to get handed back to its owner.

Repairs to a modern Mac laptop take skill and practice and patience and coordination to perform efficiently. You're ridiculing highly-skilled trained professionals. You could not do their job.



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Re: Howard Oakley: Using an M1 Mac: some basic principles
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: November 11, 2021 10:48PM
Quote
Sarcany
You could not do their job.

Easy peasy with exposure to the software and having the right spudgers to manipulate the ribbon connectors. I thought about starting a repair service like Rossmann 3 years ago but Apple has made chip level repair work almost impossible, and I am terrible at self motivation.



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Re: Howard Oakley: Using an M1 Mac: some basic principles
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: November 11, 2021 11:36PM
Quote
Filliam H. Muffman
Quote
Sarcany
You could not do their job.

Easy peasy with exposure to the software and having the right spudgers to manipulate the ribbon connectors. I thought about starting a repair service like Rossmann 3 years ago but Apple has made chip level repair work almost impossible, and I am terrible at self motivation.

Yeah, and I could be a heart surgeon with a EKG and the right knives.

RollingEyesSmiley5



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