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Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: M A V I C
Date: January 10, 2022 01:15PM
Our car is getting too small for us. Two kids are growing and need more room, for them and their stuff.

Currently we have an Audi A6 wagon. It's been great. 300hp and 30mpg on the highway have been sweet. Everything besides electric these days either gets much lower mpg or has lower power. 33cf of cargo space.

In order to get more space, that basically means SUV or minivan. Although we've tried a minivan or two, they're just too lifeless and awkward. Going to sloppy SUV handling is going to be rough enough. I'm used to putting pressure on two fingers and swiftly changing lanes. The last minivan we tried was more like "crank it with both hands, take a sip of coffee, eventually it'll get over." (To be fair, our current car does have aftermarket suspension components, so it handles better than a typical Audi.)

Although we probably have some snooty requirements like dimming mirrors, key fobs that remember seat and mirror position and wirelessly being able to play music from two phones, the basic requirements are a bit simpler:

- AWD - we're on mountain highways too often in the winter to deal with chains and the conditions are often chains required for 2WD.
- 2nd row heated captains chairs + third row
- Telescopic steering wheel - we have never found a car that works for both my wife and I without one
- Tow hitch and wiring
- Good stereo system
- Comfortable seats, including front passenger seat
- Decent handling & throttle response, or ability to improve
- 45cf+ of cargo space behind the 2nd row

I didn't think I would ever buy a new car again, but the way the market is and some reliability issues across the board, we'll probably go new. For example, one car we're looking at is being listed by a dealer for $20k over MSRP, used. New vehicles are on a 6-8mo waitlist, so they're marking up vehicles they have on the lot. People are literally buying a new car, driving it for a year, then selling it for more than they paid.

Currently on our list are:
- Kia Telluride
- Subaru Ascent
- VW Atlas

Reliability seems like a wash between these. Subaru has had a bunch of transmissions issues. Kias are easy to steal and there's a big problem with that. There's also been some problems with them. The Atlas has a couple known issues but it seems like they all have updates (eg new wiring harness) available now.

Chevy isn't doing heated seats right now, plus their configs are horrible, so a Tahoe is out (plus it's a little big.) For its size, the Toyota Highlander is cramped inside and the seats aren't that comfortable. The 4Runner has a lot of quirks that can be fixed, but the 2nd row seats are a little rustic by current standards. The Rivian R1S is nice, but the waiting list is a bit long and the price is more than we want to plunk down right now. Hyundai has the Palisades, which isn't that different from a Kia Telluride (same platform, motor...) but it might be an option. The Audi Q7 doesn't have enough cargo space.

Are there any other vehicles I should be looking at? TIA




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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: January 10, 2022 01:23PM
I love my Infiniti QX70. It checks off the power and handling and space requirements on your list but not the mileage requirement. Plus, you'd have to buy used - they stopped making them a couple of years back.

EDIT: It does NOT meet your AWD requirement, which is probably a big one for you. It is rear-wheel drive, which you would probably consider a liability.

EDIT: It only meets your space requirements with the rear seats down. Scratch it off the list. smiling smiley



It is what it is.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2022 01:28PM by N-OS X-tasy!.
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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: Lew Zealand
Date: January 10, 2022 01:28PM
We're car shopping right now by necessity and markups on cars we're looking at (small SUVs) are in the 5-10K range but used cars are also marked up so a 5K markup seems almost tolerable. For now.

Yuk.
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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: jdc
Date: January 10, 2022 01:29PM
I get the handling thing and what you are used to... same here... but you got a family now. With them in car... thats a sacrifice. Set the cruise control and go.

Either the Kia or the Telluride IMHO. Might be a wait for those too? Plenty of stellar reviews. Not going to have the mileage you want, alhgouth I thought the might be offering a plug in hybr$$.

New Toyota minivans will get you the milage you want, think 40 MPG city/hwy. But kinda gutless now.

Ive never heard of rampant Kia SUV thefts, but assuming you did the research... that seems... weird?

Skip the rest. VW, never. And thats coming from an Volvo owner. Subaru, sure, but Ascent seems small?

Id say something like a used 2016 or newer XC 90 (my daily driver, except I only drive once a week), but prob more than you want spend, and honestly, not any nicer than the Kia/Hyundai. Id say the K/H have far more kid friendly features. My kids arent kids anymore, so not as important. But lack of cup holders is a thing. =)





Edited 999 time(s). Last edit at 12:08PM by jdc.
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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: jdc
Date: January 10, 2022 01:34PM
yeah, car buying note -- althought you are prob seeing this -- for used, maybe look at big cities. We promised our 17 year old a car late last year... after putting off for her 16th cause of coivd.

The year before covid, plenty to choose from at good prices.

We ended up driving over an hour to SF to find something. No price breaks, and if we didn't want it, not a problem, 40 more people right behind us...

2014 X3 with the 2.5i, 80K. Never hit, interior was pretty clean always serviced at the BWM dealer it was purchased from... which is where we bought it from. $15K. Easily only a 12K car.





Edited 999 time(s). Last edit at 12:08PM by jdc.
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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: Gareth
Date: January 10, 2022 01:41PM
When was the last time you tried a minivan? Some of them have gotten a lot more powerful, but the suspension might still be too soft for you.

Although in AWD form, you're limited to the Toyota Sienna and Chrysler Pacifica. I didn't realize until just now that Toyota has made all the Sienna's hybrids, including the AWD version.

Toyota Sienna Woodland Edition (AWD Hybrid):
MPG: 35/36/35
245 "Net" HP
Weight: 4625
Cargo Volume: 33.5/75.2/101
Towing 3500 lbs
Length: 203.7 in
Step up to the XSE for a "Sport Tuned Suspension" for whatever that's worth (I think the "Woodland" edition is supposed to cater to the "outdoors" crowd...).

Kia Telluride:
MPG: 19/24/21
291 HP
Weight: 4354 - 4482 lbs
Cargo Volume: 21/46/87
Towing 5000 lbs
Length: 196.9 in

Chrysler Pacifica AWD:
MPG: 17/25/20
287 HP
Weight: 4883 lbs
Cargo Volume: 32.3 - 140.5
Towing 3600 lbs
Length: 204.3 in

Personally, I think minivan is always the answer, even though most people don't want to hear it. Unless you need the ground clearance or extra towing capacity of the SUV.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2022 01:50PM by Gareth.
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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: jdc
Date: January 10, 2022 01:47PM
Quote
Gareth
Personally, I think minivan is always the answer, even though most people don't want to hear it. Unless you need the ground clearance or extra towing capacity of the SUV.

I agree with this 100%. After the kids are grown in 10 years or so, get something different.

Oen thing that always made me nervous with our little ones and our SUV was the parking lot and doors. "THUNK" was always an awful noise to hear =)





Edited 999 time(s). Last edit at 12:08PM by jdc.
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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: Bixby
Date: January 10, 2022 01:50PM
Agree with Gareth that minivans are just so much more practical than SUVs.

But, one you didn't list is the Acura MDX. I think it would check most of your boxes.

Also Volvo XC90.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2022 01:58PM by Bixby.
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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: January 10, 2022 01:50PM
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
I love my Infiniti QX70. It checks off the power and handling and space requirements on your list but not the mileage requirement. Plus, you'd have to buy used - they stopped making them a couple of years back.

EDIT: It does NOT meet your AWD requirement, which is probably a big one for you. It is rear-wheel drive, which you would probably consider a liability.

EDIT: It only meets your space requirements with the rear seats down. Scratch it off the list. smiling smiley

Isn't there an awd version of most of those cars?
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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: Gareth
Date: January 10, 2022 01:57PM
Quote
jdc
Quote
Gareth
Personally, I think minivan is always the answer, even though most people don't want to hear it. Unless you need the ground clearance or extra towing capacity of the SUV.

I agree with this 100%. After the kids are grown in 10 years or so, get something different.

I don't even have kids and I love minivans! If I wasn't such a stickler for manual transmissions and RWD bias, I'd be all over that Woodland Sienna. I have a much older Toyota Van instead ('87, manual transmission and RWD with 4WD).

Telluride Ground Clearance: 8 in
Sienna Woodland Edition: 6.96 in (up from 6.37 for the other trims)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2022 01:58PM by Gareth.
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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: January 10, 2022 02:01PM
Quote
mrbigstuff
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
I love my Infiniti QX70. It checks off the power and handling and space requirements on your list but not the mileage requirement. Plus, you'd have to buy used - they stopped making them a couple of years back.

EDIT: It does NOT meet your AWD requirement, which is probably a big one for you. It is rear-wheel drive, which you would probably consider a liability.

EDIT: It only meets your space requirements with the rear seats down. Scratch it off the list. smiling smiley

Isn't there an awd version of most of those cars?

There was for the G37, the sedan version of the vehicle - not sure about the SUV.

EDIT: Just did a quick Google search - yes, there is an AWD version. Good luck finding one, though.



It is what it is.
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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: Bernie
Date: January 10, 2022 02:11PM
Let me say that I have a 2011 Buick Enclave. Bought it new and still have it. Hasn't changed much over the years so there are plenty of them out there. New Buicks have 4 year warranty and they have certified used programs.

Articulating headlights

The 2011 that I have checked all those boxes ten years ago. Racing Cadillacs to the beach for summer vacation with four adults and all of their stuff on the INSIDE. I-81 to I-64 to I-95 to I-40.






Staunton, Virginia



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2022 02:46PM by Bernie.
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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: decay
Date: January 10, 2022 02:41PM
Would the Buick Envision be a fit?

[www.buick.com]
[www.buick.com]
[www.buick.com]

We have a 2016 and it wasn't even on our shopping list when we test drove and bought it (used).



---
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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: Bernie
Date: January 10, 2022 02:45PM
The Envision doesn't have the third row seating. The Envision is like a Lincoln Navigator. Nice car!




Staunton, Virginia
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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: davemchine
Date: January 10, 2022 02:53PM
Would a Toyota Highlander be large enough? They don't look like a lumbering vehicle but I've never driven one. Price is certainly attractive for all the features it offers. In the Lexus lineup the GX and LX appear to be the big rigs and I'm sure have amazing performance.

Once we are done with work and kids (on the horizon!) I'd like to move my wife to a Lexus RX (or similar) but I'm not sure if she can downsize from a GMC Yukon Denali to something of that size even if it does have a luxury feel. We will see.



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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: Fritz
Date: January 10, 2022 02:59PM
XC60



!#$@@$#!
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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: mattkime
Date: January 10, 2022 03:09PM
Have you considered the R63 AMG? [bringatrailer.com] :-)



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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: anonymouse1
Date: January 10, 2022 03:09PM
If the only real need is more cargo space, how about a rooftop cargo carrier?
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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: jdc
Date: January 10, 2022 03:10PM
Quote
Fritz
XC60

too small.





Edited 999 time(s). Last edit at 12:08PM by jdc.
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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: mikebw
Date: January 10, 2022 03:11PM
Quote
mattkime
Have you considered the R63 AMG? [bringatrailer.com] :-)

Ugh, one of the most atrocious land yachts I have ever seen!
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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: January 10, 2022 03:16PM
Quote
mattkime
Have you considered the R63 AMG? [bringatrailer.com] :-)

Oh, man. I've always lusted after the e63 wagon.
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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: rz
Date: January 10, 2022 03:21PM
I, personally, wouldn't own a Buick if you gave it to me. Oh, wait, I did for a while. I was given my uncle's Buick Regal. It was only driven a few months out of the year (snow bird). My aunt talked about it like it was this great luxury car. Biggest POS car I ever owned.
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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: Fritz
Date: January 10, 2022 03:26PM
have friend that has a Buick Enclave. She drives it all over the NY tri-state and loves it. Not a car maker I could see, but it's her 2nd.



!#$@@$#!
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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: Z
Date: January 10, 2022 03:36PM
Quote
rz
I, personally, wouldn't own a Buick if you gave it to me. Oh, wait, I did for a while. I was given my uncle's Buick Regal. It was only driven a few months out of the year (snow bird). My aunt talked about it like it was this great luxury car. Biggest POS car I ever owned.

One of the modern Buick wagons caught my eye, but yeah.

So again, if cargo hauling, Sienna isn't a bad choice. And you can probably save about $10k and skip the Platinum edition and add some aftermarket seat heaters to the second row for a couple hundred bucks...
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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: chopper
Date: January 10, 2022 03:43PM
Toyota anything.
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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: davester
Date: January 10, 2022 03:44PM
Is it out of the question to get a second car, say minivan for hauling kids and stuff, sports car or sporty car for other stuff? That's the way we've always done things.



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan
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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: DavidS
Date: January 10, 2022 03:45PM
We just bought a new, 2021 Toyota Sienna minivan. We needed a new wheelchair accessible van for my daughter after I was in an accident with our 2012 Honda Odyssey last month.

For the 10 days we've had it, I've been pretty happy. The hybrid engine definitely takes getting used to, but the 30 MPG with city driving is really nice. It checks off all the boxes on technology that I need with the XLE trim package. My wife wanted the Limited or Platinum, but there were none available nearby in the color we wanted.

My wife also wanted to get a Kia Telluride with their new wheelchair accessible conversion, but we'd have to get it from Michigan. It is a new conversion and no one in Atlanta will service it. However, I've heard good things about the Telluride overall.
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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: Bernie
Date: January 10, 2022 03:51PM
Let's highjack this thread and say get a TRUCK. My RAM has all dat. Okay no third row seating. But the back seats are heated and it has more back seat legroom than the Buick Enclave.





Staunton, Virginia



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2022 03:51PM by Bernie.
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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: DinerDave
Date: January 10, 2022 04:13PM
"Subaru sure, but Ascent seems small"

I have not driven one, but Subie has great space utilization, IMO.

Dave



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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: Fritz
Date: January 10, 2022 04:15PM
"and say get a TRUCK. My RAM has all dat. "

comes with a stocked cooler? damn!



!#$@@$#!
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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: Racer X
Date: January 10, 2022 04:25PM
You have always admired my Sable...........



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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: AllGold
Date: January 10, 2022 04:50PM
You know the old saying, "Good, fast, cheap. Pick any two."

Not quite applicable to a vehicle but you get the point: you won't find an 8-passenger vehicle that handles like a sports car.

BTW, I have absolutely no clue, but would one of the Sprinter models work?
[www.mbvans.com]



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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: davemchine
Date: January 10, 2022 05:07PM
davesters idea of splitting time between two cars is a good one if you can do that. I currently spend my summers in a Toyota Solara convertible and my winters in a Toyota 4Runner. Not fancy cars but it allows me to have fun in the summer and be safe and capable in the winter. You could split your time between two vehicles if it works for your schedule. Outside of the initial outlay the cost isn't too bad since I'm not putting alot of miles on either vehicle.



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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: January 10, 2022 05:17PM
No idea if it meets your criteria, but I've heard a number of good things about the Kia Carnival



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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: Gareth
Date: January 10, 2022 05:19PM
Quote
Ombligo
No idea if it meets your criteria, but I've heard a number of good things about the Kia Carnival

The Carnival is the new name (and styling) for Kia's minivan. They've done a good job of making it looks less "minivan" like, but it's lacking the AWD requirement for M A V I C.
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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: Fritz
Date: January 10, 2022 06:01PM
AWD. That was my issue with the Mavrick.
Hybrid don't come AWD.



!#$@@$#!
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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: Article Accelerator
Date: January 10, 2022 06:03PM
Quote
M A V I C
Currently on our list are:
- Kia Telluride
- Subaru Ascent
- VW Atlas

You may want to add one of Mazda's offerings to that list.

[www.mazdausa.com]

Great cars, great car company. Their vehicles espouse the philosophy that the driving experience matters.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2022 06:05PM by Article Accelerator.
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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: Gareth
Date: January 10, 2022 06:22PM
Quote
Article Accelerator
You may want to add one of Mazda's offerings to that list.

[www.mazdausa.com]

Great cars, great car company. Their vehicles espouse the philosophy that the driving experience matters.

We had a CX-9 (Mazda's largest offering) for an extended weekend mountain trip, and while it was certainly peppy enough and handled well enough for curvy uphill mountain roads and passed everything I wanted to with ease, I would say the cargo capacity leaves something to be desired. Granted, I pack heavy, and there were only 2 of us, but I had all the seats folded flat and used every inch of horizontal space so I didn't block the windows.

Cargo Capacity: 14.4 / 38.2 / 71.2



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2022 06:24PM by Gareth.
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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: Racer X
Date: January 10, 2022 07:05PM
Quote
Fritz
AWD. That was my issue with the Mavrick.
Hybrid don't come AWD.

Toyota makes AWD hybrids. I know for a fact that the Prius and RAV4 comes as AWD.

Does Toyota make a tiny hybrid AWD PU?



********************************************
The police have no duty to respond. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) or Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)

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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: jdc
Date: January 10, 2022 07:28PM
Quote
Article Accelerator
You may want to add one of Mazda's offerings to that list.
[www.mazdausa.com]
Great cars, great car company. Their vehicles espouse the philosophy that the driving experience matters.

No mazdas come close to his criteria. As a former owner of 3 different mazdas ... meh.





Edited 999 time(s). Last edit at 12:08PM by jdc.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2022 07:29PM by jdc.
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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: M A V I C
Date: January 10, 2022 08:05PM
Thanks all. I'm thumbing this one out, so sorry about the brevity.

Cargo box - already have a 21cf one. The cargo space requirements take this into account.

Minivan - We rented a Toyota Sienna about four years ago. Really hated it. Plus, TBH, the Mrs says no on a minivan. One reason is we plan to tow a relative's boat. The seats were painful.

CX-9, I'll take a look.

MPG is going to be what it's going to be. I mentioned what we have now as a reference. All of the petrol third two SUVs are similar to each other in MPG.

Two vehicles aren't an option. We don't have a place to park a second vehicle.

I know whatever we get won't handle like what I have. I test drove a Telluride and it's reasonable. A 4runner was horrible. I'm not sure if it or the Sienna were worse.

Sprinter vans are the incredibly expensive right now, and really too big for us to run errands in the city.

Buick Enclave. We rented one two years ago and rather liked it. Felt a little too much like a boat, but I could try one out again.

Subaru Ascent is the biggest Subaru they've ever made. The interior is bigger than a 4Runner.

Truck. Actually, I was thinking about this. Maybe we could put up with it in the city. I think the struggle would be hauling groceries and smaller items that might be too much when the cab is full of people but we don't want it in the bed.

Thanks for the ideas. Keep them coming!




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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: John B.
Date: January 10, 2022 08:13PM
I think you already nixed the Tahoe, and hate minivans. So none of this really matters, but I’ll throw out there that I had a project team that traveled weekly for a year using rental vehicles...I could get 6 adults and luggage into a (usually Chrysler) minivan, but we’d struggle to make that work in a Tahoe. There is virtually no cargo space behind the third row of a Tahoe.
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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: Bernie
Date: January 10, 2022 08:42PM
The truck is great for groceries. That ram boxes are for the cold things and the tailgate with the divider in place just past the interior Tailgate Light is a great distance for grocery bags and gas cans. I have a roll up Weather Tech that keeps everything out of sight. The tailgate and Ram Boxes lock with the doors.

Ah A Cowboy Cadillac.






Staunton, Virginia
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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: M A V I C
Date: January 10, 2022 09:09PM
Quote
John B.
I think you already nixed the Tahoe, and hate minivans. So none of this really matters, but I’ll throw out there that I had a project team that traveled weekly for a year using rental vehicles...I could get 6 adults and luggage into a (usually Chrysler) minivan, but we’d struggle to make that work in a Tahoe. There is virtually no cargo space behind the third row of a Tahoe.

Cargo space behind the third row isn't that important. I should see what's available for those on the used market.




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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: M A V I C
Date: January 10, 2022 09:10PM
Quote
Bernie
The truck is great for groceries. That ram boxes are for the cold things and the tailgate with the divider in place just past the interior Tailgate Light is a great distance for grocery bags and gas cans. I have a roll up Weather Tech that keeps everything out of sight. The tailgate and Ram Boxes lock with the doors.

Ah A Cowboy Cadillac.


The other thing here is also that the Mrs is not exactly tall, so putting things in the bed will be a chore.

Good to know about the cargo options though. There are a number of things I think a truck would be better at.




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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2022 09:11PM by M A V I C.
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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: January 10, 2022 09:31PM
If you were to get a truck, perhaps that would open up some camping options?
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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: Bixby
Date: January 10, 2022 10:07PM
Also the Genesis GV80. I hear they do well in a crash...

We're all just guessing, since the one crucial piece you haven't shared is budget.
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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: Cary
Date: January 10, 2022 10:18PM
I'll give a dissenting opinion - I like VWs, and would consider the Atlas. I'd also consider the Telluride. Great warranty, and good reviews.
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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: AllGold
Date: January 11, 2022 02:49AM
Regarding the Buick Enclave, I believe the Chevy Traverse and GMC Acadia are basically the same vehicle, but with different trim options (and obviously, a different badge). I'm not sure if it's still the case, but they used to all be built in the same factory (which happens to be just down the road from me).

If you want to go really big, I think the Chevy Suburban and the GMC Yukon are pretty much the same. Of course, the price tag gets really big with those as well.



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Re: Car shopping. Painful.
Posted by: Sam3
Date: January 11, 2022 04:11AM
How about the Ford Expedition?



The arts are not luxuries but assets that give way more than they cost.
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