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Equal pay
Posted by: RgrF
Date: April 07, 2022 08:19AM
from a Twitter thread...

My daughter has worked for a place (won’t name it here) for almost 5 years and only makes $12.50. Her brother interviewed there today (they didn’t know that he was her brother) and offered him $16.50. He has less experience and would be reporting to her...

...I should have added the rest. My son refused the offer and told them why. My daughter put her notice in and found out that 2 other male employees that were hired in 2021, that they make $16.50. She asked a female employee what she makes, since she is leaving too, and it’s $12.50


I'm long out of the labor market or its environs, is this sort of 1950s thought/behavior even possible these days?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2022 08:21AM by RgrF.
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Re: Equal pay
Posted by: Zoidberg
Date: April 07, 2022 08:24AM
All too common, and I've heard similar stories from female friends and relatives before. The industry I work in primarily (engineering) is absolutely rife with it.



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Re: Equal pay
Posted by: mspace
Date: April 07, 2022 08:31AM
All. The. Time.
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Re: Equal pay
Posted by: Robert M
Date: April 07, 2022 08:35AM
Rgrf,

Not to defend the company but there is a factor that is missing in the conversation. The daughter was hired 5 years before the brother interviewed. Starting salaries differed noticeably 5 years ago. To properly assess this scenario, another woman would have had to interview at the same time as the daughter's brother and see what she was offered. If the salary was significantly lower then what was offered to the brother, that would confirm there is a serious issue at the company. And, unfortunately, that unequal pay is an issue is all too likely.

Robert



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2022 09:07AM by Robert M.
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Re: Equal pay
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: April 07, 2022 09:38AM
Ignoring gender, the overall practice of NOT valuing employee's labor has caused the "Great Resignation". With a labor shortage, workers have broken the code and are leaving to get better pay, benefits, etc...

And I applaud that.
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Re: Equal pay
Posted by: Paul F.
Date: April 07, 2022 10:13AM
Quote
cbelt3
Ignoring gender, the overall practice of NOT valuing employee's labor has caused the "Great Resignation". With a labor shortage, workers have broken the code and are leaving to get better pay, benefits, etc...

And I applaud that.

As much as I don't like the higher prices this brings, all I have to say is ABOUT F-ING TIME! This is the "solution" that they should have used years, or decades, ago!



Paul F.
-----
A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.

--

--

--
Eureka, CA
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Re: Equal pay
Posted by: Pam
Date: April 07, 2022 11:41AM
Pay gaps due to gender and race never went away. These days new employees may be offered more than current employees, even those with additional duties, due to the market. Managers have no incentive to raise pay for existing employees. Some employers have clauses that make pay discussion a fireable offense for that reason.
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Re: Equal pay
Posted by: Ammo
Date: April 07, 2022 11:51AM
Legal options?



Where is there dignity unless there is also honesty? - Cicero

Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a battle you know nothing about. —Wendy Mass
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Re: Equal pay
Posted by: Paul F.
Date: April 07, 2022 11:57AM
Quote
Pam
Some employers have clauses that make pay discussion a fireable offense for that reason.

I can't imagine that having a coworker fired for that would do ANYTHING but spark instant discussion among everyone else about pay... The Streisand Effect...



Paul F.
-----
A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.

--

--

--
Eureka, CA
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Re: Equal pay
Posted by: rgG
Date: April 07, 2022 12:47PM
Would she be interested in pursuing an EEOC complaint against them?
Not sure if she could get certified, but if she could document what the other three people told her, maybe it would punish the company and force them to not only make changes, but be under EEOC oversight for a while.
She probably won’t think it is worth it, but depends on how pissed off she is.





Roswell, GA (Atlanta suburb)
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Re: Equal pay
Posted by: Robert M
Date: April 07, 2022 01:08PM
rgC,

That's the thing. She was hired 5 years prior. This is a critical factor that cannot be dismissed. Starting salaries (and benefits) have changed in the last 5 years. They've changed in just the last 2 years. A new hire could very well command a higher starting salary than someone who's been on the job for a number of years.

Something I'd be intrigued to know is the starting salary of the daughter. Meaning, what was her salary as a new hire and how much has she received in raises in the last five years. She can't complain nearly as much if she had what was the typical starting salary of the time and received typical raises for the times over the last five years.

I'm looking at the salaries and benefits offered by lots of places these days and I'm saying, "Dang! I wish I could've gotten that back in the day!". Higher salaries. Big honkin' signing bonuses. Payment for college tuition. You name it!

Robert
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Re: Equal pay
Posted by: freeradical
Date: April 07, 2022 02:10PM
My local WalMart Neighborhood Market is offering $17/hour to stock shelves. No experience required.
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Re: Equal pay
Posted by: AllGold
Date: April 07, 2022 02:16PM
Quote
freeradical
My local WalMart Neighborhood Market is offering $17/hour to stock shelves. No experience required.

Good, but I bet there's no benefits. It's probably purposely kept under the number of weekly hours so they don't have to provide any benefits.



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Re: Equal pay
Posted by: graylocks
Date: April 07, 2022 02:29PM
Quote
Pam
Some employers have clauses that make pay discussion a fireable offense for that reason.

It's actually illegal under the National Labor Relations Act for most businesses to make pay discussions a fireable offense. It's a labor law that goes back many decades.

Your Right to Discuss Wages



"Success isn't about how much money you make. It is about the difference you make in people's lives."--Michelle Obama
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Re: Equal pay
Posted by: graylocks
Date: April 07, 2022 02:32PM
Quote
AllGold
Quote
freeradical
My local WalMart Neighborhood Market is offering $17/hour to stock shelves. No experience required.

Good, but I bet there's no benefits. It's probably purposely kept under the number of weekly hours so they don't have to provide any benefits.

Most news stories in the last year have reported that in the interest of retaining workers Walmart has stopped doing that. A friend of mine in TN has a 16 year old who is getting $14 an hour to clear the parking lot of carts. She says the benefits are impressive.



"Success isn't about how much money you make. It is about the difference you make in people's lives."--Michelle Obama
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Re: Equal pay
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: April 07, 2022 02:35PM
the discrepancy among the sexes is most common at the low end of the scale. it's pretty rampant, and usually among immigrant communities, who often don't speak up about the unfairness of it all. I'm thinking of fast food, hotel work, cleaning, and other service jobs.
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Re: Equal pay
Posted by: anonymouse1
Date: April 07, 2022 03:11PM
Hiring someone at higher pay than the person they report to
Is wrong (barring certain exceptional circumstances, like someone who has a rare skill).
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Re: Equal pay
Posted by: macphanatic
Date: April 07, 2022 04:17PM
Quote
Robert M
Rgrf,

Not to defend the company but there is a factor that is missing in the conversation. The daughter was hired 5 years before the brother interviewed. Starting salaries differed noticeably 5 years ago. To properly assess this scenario, another woman would have had to interview at the same time as the daughter's brother and see what she was offered. If the salary was significantly lower then what was offered to the brother, that would confirm there is a serious issue at the company. And, unfortunately, that unequal pay is an issue is all too likely.

Robert

And this is why so many people leave jobs every few years. Companies have been giving out piss poor raises for years. Changing a job should result in a 10%+ raise.
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Re: Equal pay
Posted by: Racer X
Date: April 07, 2022 04:21PM
Quote
Pam
Pay gaps due to gender and race never went away. These days new employees may be offered more than current employees, even those with additional duties, due to the market. Managers have no incentive to raise pay for existing employees. Some employers have clauses that make pay discussion a fireable offense for that reason.

Many large companies have hard and fast HR guidelines that preclude raises above x% unless there is a promotion/job duties change. Essentially they WANT it the way it is. Even a 5% a year raise will take a decade to catch up to new hires, except THEIR pay goes up too.

These days the only way to get a correction is to leave and be the new hire somewhere else.



********************************************
“A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.” Seneca the Younger

The police have no duty to respond. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) or Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)

Judge Lee wrote that “we cannot jettison our constitutional rights, even if the goal behind a law is laudable." 9th Circuit Court of Appeals

[www.youtube.com]
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Re: Equal pay
Posted by: gadje
Date: April 07, 2022 04:41PM
Quote
anonymouse1
Hiring someone at higher pay than the person they report to
Is wrong (barring certain exceptional circumstances, like someone who has a rare skill).

I can see other exceptions, for example the direct report is located in a very expensive place (Silicon Valley) and the manager is on the East Coast.
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Re: Equal pay
Posted by: Pam
Date: April 07, 2022 07:01PM
Quote
mrbigstuff
the discrepancy among the sexes is most common at the low end of the scale. it's pretty rampant, and usually among immigrant communities, who often don't speak up about the unfairness of it all. I'm thinking of fast food, hotel work, cleaning, and other service jobs.

Heh. Nope. It’s common across the pay range and while immigrants may be more hesitant it occurs across the spectrum. It literally is the way businesses operate.
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Re: Equal pay
Posted by: Pam
Date: April 07, 2022 07:03PM
Quote
Racer X
Quote
Pam
Pay gaps due to gender and race never went away. These days new employees may be offered more than current employees, even those with additional duties, due to the market. Managers have no incentive to raise pay for existing employees. Some employers have clauses that make pay discussion a fireable offense for that reason.

Many large companies have hard and fast HR guidelines that preclude raises above x% unless there is a promotion/job duties change. Essentially they WANT it the way it is. Even a 5% a year raise will take a decade to catch up to new hires, except THEIR pay goes up too.

These days the only way to get a correction is to leave and be the new hire somewhere else.

Well aware as my daughter is caught up in this.
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Re: Equal pay
Posted by: vision63
Date: April 07, 2022 07:27PM
I'm "reporting" to someone that makes $12.50 an hour and I make $16.50. What the hell do we do for a living? Plus the jobs require "experience." What do the inexperienced make?
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Re: Equal pay
Posted by: Speedy
Date: April 07, 2022 07:32PM
Quote
graylocks
Quote
Pam
Some employers have clauses that make pay discussion a fireable offense for that reason.

It's actually illegal under the National Labor Relations Act for most businesses to make pay discussions a fireable offense. It's a labor law that goes back many decades.

Your Right to Discuss Wages

Yes, and you have the legal right to discuss working conditions.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Equal pay
Posted by: Pam
Date: April 07, 2022 08:07PM
Quote
Speedy
Quote
graylocks
Quote
Pam
Some employers have clauses that make pay discussion a fireable offense for that reason.

It's actually illegal under the National Labor Relations Act for most businesses to make pay discussions a fireable offense. It's a labor law that goes back many decades.

Your Right to Discuss Wages

Yes, and you have the legal right to discuss working conditions.

Who can afford a lawyer? Not worth the effort for most.
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Re: Equal pay
Posted by: graylocks
Date: April 07, 2022 08:50PM
Quote
Pam
Who can afford a lawyer? Not worth the effort for most.

it's the National Labor Relations Board who goes after them. You simply report it and start a case.



"Success isn't about how much money you make. It is about the difference you make in people's lives."--Michelle Obama
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Re: Equal pay
Posted by: Racer X
Date: April 07, 2022 11:53PM
Quote
graylocks
Quote
Pam
Who can afford a lawyer? Not worth the effort for most.

it's the National Labor Relations Board who goes after them. You simply report it and start a case.

most businesses gamble that you are ignorant, or too timid to step up and say anything. That tactic almost always works too.



********************************************
“A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.” Seneca the Younger

The police have no duty to respond. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) or Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)

Judge Lee wrote that “we cannot jettison our constitutional rights, even if the goal behind a law is laudable." 9th Circuit Court of Appeals

[www.youtube.com]
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Re: Equal pay
Posted by: Tiangou
Date: April 08, 2022 07:01AM
Quote
Racer X
Quote
graylocks
Quote
Pam
Who can afford a lawyer? Not worth the effort for most.

it's the National Labor Relations Board who goes after them. You simply report it and start a case.

most businesses gamble that you are ignorant, or too timid to step up and say anything. That tactic almost always works too.

Allegedly, one reason why women are often paid less than men for the same job is that women often accept job offers without countering and often don't ask for raises. Men are simply more likely to ask for higher wages. This is a social construct that may be weakening over time, but is still prevalent.

Add the "wage compression" factor (wages for current employees are stagnant or regular annual raises don't keep up with inflation, and higher wages are offered to new candidates to remain competitive) and this is not a surprising situation at all.

This is a big reason why there's so much churn in employment right now -- in a competitive marketplace, an worker can often make a whole lot more money with a new employer. (And the old-timers at a new employer may be making a whole lot less than you without realizing that.)

If the daughter liked the job and was good at it, I wonder why she put in notice instead of asking for a salary commensurate with her new supervisory duties. Seems that she never considered this option.



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Re: Equal pay
Posted by: Pam
Date: April 08, 2022 04:26PM
Quote
Tiangou
Quote
Racer X
Quote
graylocks
Quote
Pam
Who can afford a lawyer? Not worth the effort for most.

it's the National Labor Relations Board who goes after them. You simply report it and start a case.

most businesses gamble that you are ignorant, or too timid to step up and say anything. That tactic almost always works too.

Allegedly, one reason why women are often paid less than men for the same job is that women often accept job offers without countering and often don't ask for raises. Men are simply more likely to ask for higher wages. This is a social construct that may be weakening over time, but is still prevalent.

Add the "wage compression" factor (wages for current employees are stagnant or regular annual raises don't keep up with inflation, and higher wages are offered to new candidates to remain competitive) and this is not a surprising situation at all.

This is a big reason why there's so much churn in employment right now -- in a competitive marketplace, an worker can often make a whole lot more money with a new employer. (And the old-timers at a new employer may be making a whole lot less than you without realizing that.)

If the daughter liked the job and was good at it, I wonder why she put in notice instead of asking for a salary commensurate with her new supervisory duties. Seems that she never considered this option.

I hear this women don’t ask for raises like men with no context to back it up. Women are treated differently when they do ask! They ask, persistently, and get blown off. Sometimes being punished for asking. Stop blaming women! I am sick of women being blamed for their own lot when the structure and sexism is there to stop and hinder all attempts.
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Re: Equal pay
Posted by: Tiangou
Date: April 08, 2022 05:48PM
Quote
Pam
I hear this women don’t ask for raises like men with no context to back it up...

The people manning the check-in desk at my last employer included a mix of men and women. One day they decided to compare salaries and all of the men were paid more than the women.

The guys went to our boss collectively on behalf of the women. The boss was embarrassed. Said he never thought to check for discrepancies. Pay raises aren't automatic every year. You have to ask for one and there's sometimes a review. Not one of the women had ever asked for a raise. He matched all of their salaries and had a roundtable with them about our benefits. None of the women had opted into the 401K and none of them knew that the company matched their contributions by 50%. (Passing up free money!)



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Re: Equal pay
Posted by: Racer X
Date: April 08, 2022 08:05PM
Quote
Tiangou
Quote
Pam
I hear this women don’t ask for raises like men with no context to back it up...

The people manning the check-in desk at my last employer included a mix of men and women. One day they decided to compare salaries and all of the men were paid more than the women.

The guys went to our boss collectively on behalf of the women. The boss was embarrassed. Said he never thought to check for discrepancies. Pay raises aren't automatic every year. You have to ask for one and there's sometimes a review. Not one of the women had ever asked for a raise. He matched all of their salaries and had a roundtable with them about our benefits. None of the women had opted into the 401K and none of them knew that the company matched their contributions by 50%. (Passing up free money!)

Passing up the 50% matching is thousands in free money yearly, compounded. I need to check with my partner and see what se is doing at her new job.



********************************************
“A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.” Seneca the Younger

The police have no duty to respond. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) or Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)

Judge Lee wrote that “we cannot jettison our constitutional rights, even if the goal behind a law is laudable." 9th Circuit Court of Appeals

[www.youtube.com]
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Re: Equal pay
Posted by: Pam
Date: April 08, 2022 08:16PM
Quote
Tiangou
Quote
Pam
I hear this women don’t ask for raises like men with no context to back it up...

The people manning the check-in desk at my last employer included a mix of men and women. One day they decided to compare salaries and all of the men were paid more than the women.

The guys went to our boss collectively on behalf of the women. The boss was embarrassed. Said he never thought to check for discrepancies. Pay raises aren't automatic every year. You have to ask for one and there's sometimes a review. Not one of the women had ever asked for a raise. He matched all of their salaries and had a roundtable with them about our benefits. None of the women had opted into the 401K and none of them knew that the company matched their contributions by 50%. (Passing up free money!)

Did anyone ask the women why they didn’t ask for raises? Why were the women not informed of the retirement matching? Nice that the guys stepped up for the women but this all smells fishy.
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Re: Equal pay
Posted by: Tiangou
Date: April 08, 2022 08:59PM
Quote
Pam
Did anyone ask the women why they didn’t ask for raises?

Prrooobabbbly.

It was a decade ago, and I wasn't working the front desk.

I only saw a part of it and heard about the rest afterwards.

Quote
Pam
Why were the women not informed of the retirement matching?

They were.

Everyone got the same packet on their first day of work.

...It wasn't only the women. Lots of the men in the front of the office weren't enrolled in the 401K, either. But all of the backroom guys, senior techs and field techs (all male) were enrolled.

Quote
Pam
Nice that the guys stepped up for the women but this all smells fishy.

One of the front desk guys basically said "If you're not going to ask then I'm going to ask for you." The other guys followed him. I saw them parade into the boss's office.



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