Roughly 23 minute video [www.youtube.com]

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Ways to improve web conference image and sound quality. [forums.macresource.com]






Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/06/2022 05:17PM by pRICE cUBE.

This test for MotorTrend did not go so well.

[www.motortrend.com]

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So get back to work and sweat some more
The sun will sink, and we'll get out the door
It's no good for man to work in cages
Hits the town, he drinks his wages
You're frettin', you're sweatin'
But did you notice you ain't gettin'?

That is the smallest camper I have ever seen.

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C(-)ris
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Besides expense, I wonder what you’d give up by installing a bunch of batteries in towable RV trailers? Space, payload, etc? Outfit the thing with all electric appliances, pave the roof with solar panels (again expensive). It would probably take a long time to charge such a setup, but u could do it at the house before u leave (hell the rooftop solar will probably keep it fully charged in between uses). Then the trailer could provide supplemental energy to the tow vehicle, mitigating range issues (but of course it might be a pain to charge the whole combo enroute depending how far you’re traveling). I think it could be a good setup (even for boondocking). I can even see rollout shades (of the type you see often with these campers) significantly increasing tre already significant rooftop solar area. I’m sure engineering numbers could be put to this problem to answer my question.

I think you could mitigate the payload issue with additional wheels and a stronger frame. Locate the heavy batteries in the floor, forward of the wheels, and you'd be enhancing the overall safety and stability of the tow combination.

EV is not the right solution for all applications. There many situations where ICE are still (and probably will always be) a better choice. But EV are gaining momentum and will continue to grow faster than many people expect today.

“ Besides expense, I wonder what you’d give up by installing a bunch of batteries in towable RV trailers? “


[forums.macresource.com]

Quote
gadje
EV is not the right solution for all applications. There many situations where ICE are still (and probably will always be) a better choice. But EV are gaining momentum and will continue to grow faster than many people expect today.

Dave

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Welcome to Dave's BBQ!

Many have eaten here....

Few have died

I followed this adventure. They ended up taking this EV all the way to the North Shore of Alaska, but with another F150 Hybrid as a chase/photo/video vehicle.

A couple of time they had to charge the EV overnight from the Hybrid.


[www.youtube.com]

[www.youtube.com]

[www.youtube.com]

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San Antonio, TX (in the old city)


"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
“Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." - Eli Weisel

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." - Theodore Roosevelt (1918)

"I don’t want to see religious bigotry in any form. It would disturb me if there was a wedding between the religious fundamentalists and the political right. The hard right has no interest in religion except to manipulate it." - Billy Graham 1981

"Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise" - Barry Goldwater

Kind of a pia with all the stopping and I was surprised by how much it cost to charge up. I could do that trip in my Corolla Cross for about $160 at $5/gal, save several hours of charging time and sleep in the back with seats down. How much do those rigs cost?

Gotta love ICE trucks tooling around with one occupant. I guess it’s not much different for an EVT.

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Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.

Quote
gadje
EV is not the right solution for all applications. There many situations where ICE are still (and probably will always be) a better choice. But EV are gaining momentum and will continue to grow faster than many people expect today.

The comparisons between ICE and EV done today are a bit misleading as they only consider range on a single "fill-up". To get a better comparison we should probably be looking at max possible range and time spent doing "fill-ups" over a 24 hr period to get a usability value for the vehicle. For instance, a Ford Mustang has approximately a 300 mile range in either ICE or EV versions, but a fill-up of the ICE version takes less than 10 minutes while in the EV it can be as long as 12 hrs (depending on charger). So in 24 hrs the ICE version can go about 1,200 miles and spends less than 1 hr doing fill-ups. The EV version can go about 300 miles and spends 12 hrs doing fill-ups. That makes the ICE version usable 95% of the time while the EV version is usable 50% of the time. Now apply this to trucks (which only make money when they're in use) or emergency vehicles (which need to have a maximum usability time).

The immediate problems facing the EV adoption are fill-up time and cost in addition to their longer term contribution to the "environmental disaster" caused by their manufacturing and disposal.

But falling fuel prices are already slowing EV sales. Plus many which were sold 5 years ago or longer are now facing the dreaded battery replacement phase of use. Some manufacturers (like Ford) aren't allowing people who leased them to buy them at the end of the lease, mainly because of the battery replacement issue and because replacements aren't even available.

Everybody knows the range of EVs suck. They are not yet the right tool for the job of sustained trips. And we aren't suddenly all going EV overnight. But experiments like this one help suss out the possibilities.

For households where there are two vehicles, which is not every household but certainly a lot, one that's EV for around town and one ICE for long range is a viable and affordable strategy. Already many households do something similar...big chariot for family trips, while spouse keeps a rice-burner for commuting.

You’re comparing filling up a Mustang with a fuel hose to filling up an EV with a straw. Yeah the mustang EV is slower to charge but most people don’t drive 1500 miles without stopping to pee and eat. Also most people don’t charge on 120V while road tripping. CCS fast chargers dump massive energy into the batteries. It takes about 45min. Once you get an EV you realize it’s not really that much different. You charge in parallel with other activities. It’s not an exclusive activity like fueling is. You don’t complain about how slow you are at eating, or how long it takes for you to drop a load in the truck stop bathroom. The MachE will charge to 85% in less than an hour while you poop, get a snack or eat a meal. Road tripping in a Tesla is even better. Usually it’s done charging before you are done eating. No one charges their EV to 100% while road tripping and it shows your ignorance. EV sales are accelerating not declining. They’re greater than 50% in China, the worlds largest vehicle market. Larger than 20% in Europe, greater than 5% in the US and nearly doubling every year in the US despite US laws written to protect legacy auto companies from competition. People keep talking about this looming environmental disaster from EV batteries. Would you throw away oil or gold? That’s what those batteries represent. They’re valuable. Extremely valuable. They can be recycled into new batteries indefinitely. All the hard work has already been done to make them initially. Is there an environmental cost? Sure. But nothing like pumping oil, shipping it around the world, refining it, shipping it around the world again and burning it with nothing remaining to show for it afterward except for copious air pollution. Once the batteries are made they can be remade into new batteries for a fraction of the cost and environmental impact. There are absolutely edge cases where EVs aren’t ideal, but they’re few and far between. It does require a thought paradigm shift. Charging an electric semi can be done while loading and unloading the truck at the dock. The operational cost difference is so much that it’s more cost effective to buy 5 trucks driving 500mile segments of a cross country trip than to have 1 truck drive all the way across the country on diesel. Your EV can charge at the grocery store while you shop, usually it’s overnight while you sleep though. You don’t need dedicated fueling locations. It can happen anywhere while you’re off doing something else.

I’m an engineer. I like mechanical stuff. I like cars and engines and transmissions as a point of interest. But good engineers are inherently lazy. They’ll work twice as hard to make something more efficient. Imagine telling your boss that you’ve invented a new vehicle that has 70% fewer moving parts, is almost fully recyclable, operates at 80+% efficiency(compared to current 20-30%), is far more reliable, costs less to fuel and is better for the environment. You’d either get fired or promoted. Suddenly your Mustang looks like a steam engine with a grease covered engineer happily oiling and greasing it to keep it running while shoveling coal into a boiler.

It will take some time for the EV market to mature. Well designed EV batteries are lasting far longer than expected. Chevy Volts are coming up on 10+ years and just starting to show degradation. Tesla Model S batteries are similarly showing strong performance at 10 years. Having said that, 10 years ago, even 5 years ago, most EVs sold by legacy auto companies were compliance vehicles sold to satisfy California laws. The batteries were not designed to last long, survive heat or cold, and were generally simply bolted on to existing models with an electric motor replacing the ICE. Those crappy compliance vehicles are reaching end of life and Ford, Chryslantis, GM, VW…they all want those abominations off the road ASAP. They were a bandaid solution and we’re never serious entries into the EV market. 10 years ago the Volt and Model S were the only real EV options with proper battery management. The Nissan Leaf used passive cooling and those batteries died a premature death.

Quote
bobinmurphy

Quote
gadje
EV is not the right solution for all applications. There many situations where ICE are still (and probably will always be) a better choice. But EV are gaining momentum and will continue to grow faster than many people expect today.

The comparisons between ICE and EV done today are a bit misleading as they only consider range on a single "fill-up". To get a better comparison we should probably be looking at max possible range and time spent doing "fill-ups" over a 24 hr period to get a usability value for the vehicle. For instance, a Ford Mustang has approximately a 300 mile range in either ICE or EV versions, but a fill-up of the ICE version takes less than 10 minutes while in the EV it can be as long as 12 hrs (depending on charger). So in 24 hrs the ICE version can go about 1,200 miles and spends less than 1 hr doing fill-ups. The EV version can go about 300 miles and spends 12 hrs doing fill-ups. That makes the ICE version usable 95% of the time while the EV version is usable 50% of the time. Now apply this to trucks (which only make money when they're in use) or emergency vehicles (which need to have a maximum usability time).

The immediate problems facing the EV adoption are fill-up time and cost in addition to their longer term contribution to the "environmental disaster" caused by their manufacturing and disposal.

But falling fuel prices are already slowing EV sales. Plus many which were sold 5 years ago or longer are now facing the dreaded battery replacement phase of use. Some manufacturers (like Ford) aren't allowing people who leased them to buy them at the end of the lease, mainly because of the battery replacement issue and because replacements aren't even available.

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MacResource User Map: [www.zeemaps.com]#

... despite US laws written to protect legacy auto companies from competition.

Can you please be more specific? Thanks

I forgot to note at one point, Roman, the boss of the channel was talking to an Alaska Tour guide. He will usually play the role of EV-skeptic. But this time, he defended the Lighting, as a Model T.

"How much is your Gas pickup more advanced than a Model T? This is the beginning for EVs. Things will get better."

EVs win on
1.Accelleration
2.Confort/Quietnss
3.Efficiency
4.Cost to Recharge/Refill
5.Maintenance Costs

ICE wins on
1. Range (only useful in Long Trips)
2.Time to Refill/Recharge
3.Purchase Price (which is mitigated by EV Point 4 & 5)

To me, a Plug In Hybrid fixes a lot of these. Except youre carrying an ICE engine you don't use 90% of the time.
I still think a RENTABLE ICE Generator/Trailer would work for more people, all you need is standardized connections.

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San Antonio, TX (in the old city)


"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
“Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." - Eli Weisel

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." - Theodore Roosevelt (1918)

"I don’t want to see religious bigotry in any form. It would disturb me if there was a wedding between the religious fundamentalists and the political right. The hard right has no interest in religion except to manipulate it." - Billy Graham 1981

"Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise" - Barry Goldwater

Purchase price is rapidly becoming a moot point. Bolt EV starts at $26k. With a likely $7500 tax credit reinstated it will be $19k. A base Tesla Model 3 starts at just $2k more than the average new car price in the US, and that’s an artificially inflated price. Tesla are manipulating the price to quell demand. Of course a nice side benefit if this is a nearly 30% profit margin.

If the government ceased oil and gas subsidies gasoline would be conservatively around $8-$10/gal so EVs would be WAY more appealing. Those subsidies are obviously nice for the economy because it creates stability and makes budgeting easier. But it seems excessive to me.

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MacResource User Map: [www.zeemaps.com]#

Quote
Rolando
To me, a Plug In Hybrid fixes a lot of these. Except youre carrying an ICE engine you don't use 90% of the time.

depends upon your needs. with my Volt my ICE is not used 70% of the time.

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If you want to fix our country, work with us in the states. statesproject.org

"Success isn't about how much money you make. It is about the difference you make in people's lives."--Michelle Obama

Quote
Wags
Kind of a pia with all the stopping and I was surprised by how much it cost to charge up. I could do that trip in my Corolla Cross for about $160 at $5/gal, save several hours of charging time and sleep in the back with seats down. How much do those rigs cost?

The full up "Platinum edition" that MotorTrend tested was just south of $100K.

I agree with ztirffritz. How often does anyone take trips that long. The EV sweet spot is commuting and around errands, short trips, etc.
My Volt was designed to go to your daily commute, come home, plug into a 110 outlet, ready to go the next day. I've seen comments where the Volt is between $7 and $12 to fully charge, Thanks to my solar, essentially it's zero for me. Added benefit, the car is so quiet and comfortable, is is used anytime my wife and I go somewhere. Even when the ICE runs, it gets about 12-15 MPG more than my wife's Crosstrek.
Personally, the ultimate for me would be EV range over 300 miles, the Bolt would make me too nervous on a trip I like to do several times a summer that is about 250 round trip.
MOST applications EV s are becoming the less expensive way to go.

Dave

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Welcome to Dave's BBQ!

Many have eaten here....

Few have died

Quote
DinerDave
I've seen comments where the Volt is between $7 and $12 to fully charge,
Dave

Uh, no. I can't imagine where one would live in the US where 16Kwh would cost that much but i know here in georgia a full charge from empty is about $1.72 for my Volt.

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If you want to fix our country, work with us in the states. statesproject.org

"Success isn't about how much money you make. It is about the difference you make in people's lives."--Michelle Obama



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2022 06:55PM by graylocks.

Quote
Will Collier

Quote
Wags
Kind of a pia with all the stopping and I was surprised by how much it cost to charge up. I could do that trip in my Corolla Cross for about $160 at $5/gal, save several hours of charging time and sleep in the back with seats down. How much do those rigs cost?

The full up "Platinum edition" that MotorTrend tested was just south of $100K.

Yikes. Ironic how they stamp platinum on a tin banner to promote luxury.

My 2013 volt costs about $1.50 to fully charge. I charge overnight at 120V. Sometimes I’m able to charge at work if the parking space next to the outlet is available. I can have a full charge again by lunch time.

Quote
graylocks

Quote
DinerDave
I've seen comments where the Volt is between $7 and $12 to fully charge,
Dave

Uh, no. I can't imagine where one would live in the US where 16Kwh would cost that much but i know here in georgia a full charge from empty is about $1.72 for my Volt.

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MacResource User Map: [www.zeemaps.com]#

Dealers are a protected business segment. In several states Tesla is not allowed to sell vehicles within the state. Ironically, Texas is one of those states. Dealers are required by law in many states to be separate from the manufacturer and the only way cars can be sold new. While not directly benefiting legacy auto, it prevents Tesla from competing with them.
The US subsidizes oil and gasoline to the tune of about $650 billion annually. That’s more than the US defense budget. Imagine what the price of oil and gas would be without those subsidies.

How much would you drive if gasoline were $8+/gal?

In case Rolling Stone isn’t a good enough source, here’s a Forbes article about the same subject.

Quote
gadje
... despite US laws written to protect legacy auto companies from competition.

Can you please be more specific? Thanks

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MacResource User Map: [www.zeemaps.com]#



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2022 08:31PM by ztirffritz.

More like wearing gold chains outside a shirt. Its just bling. Its says:
"This truck will most likely will never do a day of truck work with its first owner, but it possibly could, and will with its second owner."

Quote
Wags
Yikes. Ironic how they stamp platinum on a tin banner to promote luxury.

Thanks for the sources! Always nice to have!

Quote
ztirffritz
Dealers are a protected business segment. In several states Tesla is not allowed to sell vehicles within the state. Ironically, Texas is one of those states. Dealers are required by law in many states to be separate from the manufacturer and the only way cars can be sold new. While not directly benefiting legacy auto, it prevents Tesla from competing with them.
The US subsidizes oil and gasoline to the tune of about $650 billion annually. That’s more than the US defense budget. Imagine what the price of oil and gas would be without those subsidies.

How much would you drive if gasoline were $8+/gal?

In case Rolling Stone isn’t a good enough source, here’s a Forbes article about the same subject.

Quote
gadje
... despite US laws written to protect legacy auto companies from competition.

Can you please be more specific? Thanks

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San Antonio, TX (in the old city)


"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
“Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." - Eli Weisel

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." - Theodore Roosevelt (1918)

"I don’t want to see religious bigotry in any form. It would disturb me if there was a wedding between the religious fundamentalists and the political right. The hard right has no interest in religion except to manipulate it." - Billy Graham 1981

"Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise" - Barry Goldwater

Of course, if you pull into a charging station and all the posts are full, you have to wait not only for one of the vehicles to finish charging, but you have to wait for the owner to finish lunch.

My recollection is that lead acid battery manufacturers left white an environmental mess when they closed manufacturing plants. I wonder what the environmental impact will be of the new battery plants like the ones Ford is building in KY and TN.

That said, I do covet the features of a new EV. Awfully hard to justify replacing the ~2009 Nissan Quest and MINI Clubman which could be the last cars we have to buy.

Substandard environmental oversight might have something to do with Ford's choice of locations.

Quote
Don C
My recollection is that lead acid battery manufacturers left white an environmental mess when they closed manufacturing plants. I wonder what the environmental impact will be of the new battery plants like the ones Ford is building in KY and TN.

As if there's no environmental damage from fossil fuels. [www.britannica.com]
[en.wikipedia.org]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/08/2022 12:37AM by AllGold.

Quote
Don C
Of course, if you pull into a charging station and all the posts are full, you have to wait not only for one of the vehicles to finish charging, but you have to wait for the owner to finish lunch.

I don’t know how other charging stations handle it, but not an issue with Teslas. The Tesla charger will start charging a minute by minute fee if the driver leaves their car plugged in beyond the time required to charge it.

Quote
Carnos Jax
Besides expense, I wonder what you’d give up by installing a bunch of batteries in towable RV trailers? Space, payload, etc? Outfit the thing with all electric appliances, pave the roof with solar panels (again expensive). It would probably take a long time to charge such a setup, but u could do it at the house before u leave (hell the rooftop solar will probably keep it fully charged in between uses). Then the trailer could provide supplemental energy to the tow vehicle, mitigating range issues (but of course it might be a pain to charge the whole combo enroute depending how far you’re traveling). I think it could be a good setup (even for boondocking). I can even see rollout shades (of the type you see often with these campers) significantly increasing tre already significant rooftop solar area. I’m sure engineering numbers could be put to this problem to answer my question.

Making a trailer heavier isn't a good thing. It impacts how much weight can go in the tow vehicle and may require going to a heavier duty tow vehicle. So, add batteries to the trailer and only be able to have one or maybe two people in the tow vehicle. Not exactly practical for a family.

I don’t doubt that there was an environmental mess left from Pb mining, but it is interesting to note that 95% of Pb is recycled. The lead in your 12V battery was likely the same lead in a 12V battery in the 60s or earlier. It just proves my point. The minerals can and will be recovered and recycled once they’ve been refined.

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**************************************
MacResource User Map: [www.zeemaps.com]#

Quote
RgrF
Substandard environmental oversight might have something to do with Ford's choice of locations.

that, possibly, and weak/strong union areas.

---

So get back to work and sweat some more
The sun will sink, and we'll get out the door
It's no good for man to work in cages
Hits the town, he drinks his wages
You're frettin', you're sweatin'
But did you notice you ain't gettin'?

Quote
Wags
How much do those rigs cost?

Depends.

I have seen at least one with a "Market Adjustment" of $40,000 on the sticker.

Quote
graylocks

Quote
DinerDave
I've seen comments where the Volt is between $7 and $12 to fully charge,
Dave

Uh, no. I can't imagine where one would live in the US where 16Kwh would cost that much but i know here in georgia a full charge from empty is about $1.72 for my Volt.

That makes sense, the one time, so far that I paid retail to top off my Volt at a ChargePoint it cost me $1.04 for about 30-40 miles of range.

Dave

---

Welcome to Dave's BBQ!

Many have eaten here....

Few have died

Quote
Don C
That said, I do covet the features of a new EV. Awfully hard to justify replacing the ~2009 Nissan Quest and MINI Clubman which could be the last cars we have to buy.

This link from Engineering Explained goes over the payoff time for an Electric car vs older gas vehicle, INCLUDING production costs.
[www.youtube.com]

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San Antonio, TX (in the old city)


"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
“Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." - Eli Weisel

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." - Theodore Roosevelt (1918)

"I don’t want to see religious bigotry in any form. It would disturb me if there was a wedding between the religious fundamentalists and the political right. The hard right has no interest in religion except to manipulate it." - Billy Graham 1981

"Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise" - Barry Goldwater