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Ever done a zipper merge?
Posted by: lost in space
Date: September 28, 2022 08:31PM
We were in an hour-long backup on an interstate, where two lanes went down to one for construction. It was aggravating, because when we got to where the "construction" was supposed to be happening, there were only traffic cones, no workers, no road work, no equipment. But I digress.

Made me wonder why zipper merging isn't in use in WA state. How about where you drive? Ever used it? Does it work?



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Re: Ever done a zipper merge?
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: September 28, 2022 08:40PM
Zipper merge works in places with civilized, selfless drivers. Here it would just create one moving lane and one long parking lot (at least until two cars collide when one tries to merge and both lanes become parking lots)



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.” -- François de La Rochefoucauld

"Those who cannot accept the past are condemned to revise it." -- Geo. Mathias
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Re: Ever done a zipper merge?
Posted by: Acer
Date: September 28, 2022 08:48PM
Here in western PA, they sometimes put up a "Merge here, Take Your Turn" sign only on roads that see heavy rush-hour traffic. But the signage leading up to that is very scant if present at all. If they want zipper merging, they should be telling you well in advance. People here tend to stack the open lane well before the actual closure.
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Re: Ever done a zipper merge?
Posted by: Don C
Date: September 28, 2022 08:55PM
It is encouraged here where two lanes of I-64 merge into one before crossing the Ohio River. Signs a mile or two before the merge say to use two lanes and then at the merger just say that one lane is closed.

There was some publicity on TV and print media before construction started telling us to do this.

ANY time you take two lanes down to one there will be a backup, of course. I have not heard of increased accidents. It does take retraining my brain from saying, "Oh no you don't! You aren't getting in front of ME after I waited dutifully."

Fortunately, I only go through there a couple of times a week.
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Re: Ever done a zipper merge?
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: September 28, 2022 09:00PM
Americans are not taught that. I do that, but it assumes that everyone knows how.

Americans also have super trouble with roundabouts.
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Re: Ever done a zipper merge?
Posted by: Speedy
Date: September 28, 2022 09:00PM
It works fine if the construction area is longer than a few hundred yards, the zipper is at the last moment and traffic can proceed to speed up as it moves through the zone and reaches the maximum designated speed limit while still within the zone.

It doesn’t work fine for shorter zones like a single bridge long zone that may only be 200 feet long. Then a zipper at the very beginning of the single lane means you cannot reach the designated speed by the end of the 200 foot long zone. In this case it is better/faster to slow down, even stop, to form a single line way before the zone and then traffic can speed up to the designated speed limit before you reach and through the zone.

The limiting factor should be the speed limit through the zone, especially the very end of the zone. If the designated zone limit is 50 MPH and cars are exiting the zone at 50 MPH, then that is the maximum possible (within the law) throughput. For the single bridge example, traffic is probably exiting the zone at 30 MPH or less where they may have Jersey barriers protecting workers and a speed limit of 50 MPH or more. Then the zipper is unnecessarily slowing traffic.

To increase throughput in the bridge example, make it a longer zone if you want a zipper merge. Otherwise, merge early and then speed up to the designated speed through the zone. Of course, not every driver would cooperate in an early merge. But most will cooperate to go the designated speed limit as they exit the zone sequentially and safely spaced.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/28/2022 09:04PM by Speedy.
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Re: Ever done a zipper merge?
Posted by: Markintosh
Date: September 28, 2022 09:03PM
It is encouraged here. It does not work. Even if I wait and try to do the late merge, there is always a dozen @#$%&, pushing farther and knocking down traffic cones trying to get even further before merging.

Pet peeve...when they start announcing the lane closure three miles early, so one lane gets backed up for miles. Just give people a speed warning, then like a half mile to do the zipper thing. It would work so much better.



“Live your life, love your life, don’t regret…live, learn and move forward positively.” – CR Johnson
Loving life in Lake Tahoe, CA
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Re: Ever done a zipper merge?
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: September 29, 2022 12:38AM
Quote
Markintosh
Pet peeve...when they start announcing the lane closure three miles early, so one lane gets backed up for miles.

Umm... that's when being a zipper merge provides the greatest benefit. Most people merge to the single lane as soon as possible, leaving the other lane open for us zipper mergers to move ahead as far as possible without merging.



It is what it is.
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Re: Ever done a zipper merge?
Posted by: Sam3
Date: September 29, 2022 03:41AM
They are working on encouraging that here in Michigan, lately by not mentioning which lane is closed, only that there is a lane closure ahead and to proceed in both lanes until the closure. Not mentioning which lane is closed seems to help.
Most people still don't get the idea of the zipper merge, read any car related subReddit and people will vehemently deny that zipper merges work and that people who go in the empty lane until the merge are entitled idiots who deserve to be blocked from merging.



The arts are not luxuries but assets that give way more than they cost.
--Ronald Tucker on YouTube

A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it is not open.
--Frank Zappa
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Re: Ever done a zipper merge?
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: September 29, 2022 06:39AM
What Speedy said, but bottom line is that it depends on volume of traffic. After a certain point (volume) all of the theoretical models break down and you get chaos.
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Re: Ever done a zipper merge?
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: September 29, 2022 08:14AM
….no……. but zipper has gotten caught in stuff…..



_____________________________________

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
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Re: Ever done a zipper merge?
Posted by: Acer
Date: September 29, 2022 08:22AM
A zipper merge into a roundabout would tear the space-time continuum.
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Re: Ever done a zipper merge?
Posted by: Markintosh
Date: September 29, 2022 08:23AM
This all good except for those long term projects...where you know it's always the right lane closed. It's just a matter of when...

And yes to volume of traffic ultimately causing chaos no matter what would work.


Quote
Sam3
They are working on encouraging that here in Michigan, lately by not mentioning which lane is closed, only that there is a lane closure ahead and to proceed in both lanes until the closure. Not mentioning which lane is closed seems to help



“Live your life, love your life, don’t regret…live, learn and move forward positively.” – CR Johnson
Loving life in Lake Tahoe, CA
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Re: Ever done a zipper merge?
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: September 29, 2022 08:26AM
Quote
cbelt3
Americans are not taught that. I do that, but it assumes that everyone knows how.

Americans also have super trouble with roundabouts.

Americans are taught about stop signs, but they still have "super trouble" with them!
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Re: Ever done a zipper merge?
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: September 29, 2022 08:38AM
Quote
lost in space
We were in an hour-long backup on an interstate, where two lanes went down to one for construction. It was aggravating, because when we got to where the "construction" was supposed to be happening, there were only traffic cones, no workers, no road work, no equipment. But I digress.

Made me wonder why zipper merging isn't in use in WA state. How about where you drive? Ever used it? Does it work?

Not sure what part of WA you were in but I lived in Seattle 22 years. Zipper merge was how everybody drove on the freeways. That's where I learned it. The on ramps are very long and designed for that.

Here in SC the on ramps are super short and you're expected to move into the left lane to allow cars to emter the highway. Very unsafe IMO.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/29/2022 08:38AM by Lemon Drop.
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Re: Ever done a zipper merge?
Posted by: lost in space
Date: September 29, 2022 08:44AM
Lemon Drop, this was on I90 just east of Snoqualmie Pass.

Quote
Lemon Drop
Quote
lost in space
We were in an hour-long backup on an interstate, where two lanes went down to one for construction. It was aggravating, because when we got to where the "construction" was supposed to be happening, there were only traffic cones, no workers, no road work, no equipment. But I digress.

Made me wonder why zipper merging isn't in use in WA state. How about where you drive? Ever used it? Does it work?

Not sure what part of WA you were in but I lived in Seattle 22 years. Zipper merge was how everybody drove on the freeways. That's where I learned it. The on ramps are very long and designed for that.

Here in SC the on ramps are super short and you're expected to move into the left lane to allow cars to emter the highway. Very unsafe IMO.



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Re: Ever done a zipper merge?
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: September 29, 2022 09:00AM
Quote
lost in space
Lemon Drop, this was on I90 just east of Snoqualmie Pass.

Quote
Lemon Drop
Quote
lost in space


There is nonstop construction up there in summer. Limited season to get it done. The crew are not there 24/7 but they need lanes closed to get equipmemt in, etc.

Sorry you experienced an inconvenience.
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Re: Ever done a zipper merge?
Posted by: pdq
Date: September 29, 2022 09:15AM
Quote
Sam3
They are working on encouraging that here in Michigan, lately by not mentioning which lane is closed, only that there is a lane closure ahead and to proceed in both lanes until the closure. Not mentioning which lane is closed seems to help.
Most people still don't get the idea of the zipper merge, read any car related subReddit and people will vehemently deny that zipper merges work and that people who go in the empty lane until the merge are entitled idiots who deserve to be blocked from merging.

Yeah, here in MN too. They have signs, billboards, ads, and people are still resistant to a zipper merge, to the point that I’ve seen cars in the long, slow lane make little sudden car movements as though to cut off people in the shorter lane who are trying to do as told.

It’s gonna take some time for driver reeducation. The most effective sign seems to me to be one that says “Take turns at merging” (leaving out the “…ya dumb @#$%&!” part.)
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Re: Ever done a zipper merge?
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: September 29, 2022 09:47AM
I want to merge this thread with the earlier one about doing the right thing -- [forums.macresource.com]

Americans are pretty much self-centered jerks by nature.



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.” -- François de La Rochefoucauld

"Those who cannot accept the past are condemned to revise it." -- Geo. Mathias
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Re: Ever done a zipper merge?
Posted by: testcase
Date: September 29, 2022 10:49AM
Far too many drivers really do NOT know how to properly drive. When I drive "down south", I thank God that BRAKE LIGHTS automatically illuminate when the brake pedal is pressed. I'd swear that, on vehicles delivered to southern dealers, the TURN SIGNAL LIGHTS have been disabled. angry villagers smiley

PROPERLY merging (zipper or otherwise) requires that the driver is PAYING ATTENTION to the job at hand. As more and more cars become "self driving", these knucklehead drivers will pay even less attention to their driving as they'll expect the vehicle to be "responsible". old fogey smiley
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Re: Ever done a zipper merge?
Posted by: ztirffritz
Date: September 29, 2022 10:51AM
Ever see the video of people trying to navigate the first roundabout in KY? There's a version on youtube with the Benny Hill theme music that's hysterical.



**************************************
MacResource User Map: [www.zeemaps.com]#
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Re: Ever done a zipper merge?
Posted by: lost in space
Date: September 29, 2022 11:22AM
Quote
ztirffritz
Ever see the video of people trying to navigate the first roundabout in KY? There's a version on youtube with the Benny Hill theme music that's hysterical.

Ever seen an American driver trying to navigate their first roundabout in England? Been there, done that. It was humiliating.



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Re: Ever done a zipper merge?
Posted by: wave rider
Date: September 29, 2022 11:36AM
My first thought was that the topic was about clothing. A zipper merge could be quite painful…



=wr=
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Re: Ever done a zipper merge?
Posted by: ztirffritz
Date: September 29, 2022 11:40AM
Quote
wave rider
My first thought was that the topic was about clothing. A zipper merge could be quite painful…

What I want to know is how'd you get the beans before the frank?



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MacResource User Map: [www.zeemaps.com]#
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Re: Ever done a zipper merge?
Posted by: Paul F.
Date: September 29, 2022 11:41AM
Quote
lost in space
Quote
ztirffritz
Ever see the video of people trying to navigate the first roundabout in KY? There's a version on youtube with the Benny Hill theme music that's hysterical.

Ever seen an American driver trying to navigate their first roundabout in England? Been there, done that. It was humiliating.

I've BEEN that driver in England... It would have been easy, if I wasn't on the wrong side of the road, going the wrong direction around the thing, AND sitting on the wrong side of the CAR!
I have no problem with them here in California... it's just making everything backwards makes it hard!



Paul F.
-----
A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.

--

--

--
Eureka, CA
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Re: Ever done a zipper merge?
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: September 29, 2022 11:56AM
Quote
Paul F.
Quote
lost in space
Quote
ztirffritz
Ever see the video of people trying to navigate the first roundabout in KY? There's a version on youtube with the Benny Hill theme music that's hysterical.

Ever seen an American driver trying to navigate their first roundabout in England? Been there, done that. It was humiliating.

I've BEEN that driver in England... It would have been easy, if I wasn't on the wrong side of the road, going the wrong direction around the thing, AND sitting on the wrong side of the CAR!
I have no problem with them here in California... it's just making everything backwards makes it hard!

[youtu.be]

(Nsfw)
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Re: Ever done a zipper merge?
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: September 29, 2022 01:38PM
…..has to at least buy one dinner first…..



_____________________________________

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
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Re: Ever done a zipper merge?
Posted by: lost in space
Date: September 29, 2022 05:11PM
Quote
Paul F.
Quote
lost in space
Quote
ztirffritz
Ever see the video of people trying to navigate the first roundabout in KY? There's a version on youtube with the Benny Hill theme music that's hysterical.

Ever seen an American driver trying to navigate their first roundabout in England? Been there, done that. It was humiliating.

I've BEEN that driver in England... It would have been easy, if I wasn't on the wrong side of the road, going the wrong direction around the thing, AND sitting on the wrong side of the CAR!
I have no problem with them here in California... it's just making everything backwards makes it hard!

I've been that driver too, and it was when rental cars were manual transmissions shifted with the left hand, so I got flustered and instead of grabbing the shifter to back up I turned on the windshield wiper stalk on the steering column. The other drivers were unbelievably kind; must have known I was a tourist.







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/29/2022 05:11PM by lost in space.
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Re: Ever done a zipper merge?
Posted by: Paul F.
Date: September 29, 2022 05:15PM
Quote
lost in space
Quote
Paul F.
Quote
lost in space

Ever seen an American driver trying to navigate their first roundabout in England? Been there, done that. It was humiliating.

I've BEEN that driver in England... It would have been easy, if I wasn't on the wrong side of the road, going the wrong direction around the thing, AND sitting on the wrong side of the CAR!
I have no problem with them here in California... it's just making everything backwards makes it hard!

I've been that driver too, and it was when rental cars were manual transmissions shifted with the left hand, so I got flustered and instead of grabbing the shifter to back up I turned on the windshield wiper stalk on the steering column. The other drivers were unbelievably kind; must have known I was a tourist.

I think they see a rental car, and they just KNOW... if it's not an American, it's someone else from a country that drives on the right. And yes, they are very tolerant... especially if you're quick with a nod-and-wave of "Sorry about that, my fault!".
I still ain't driving there again, though.



Paul F.
-----
A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.

--

--

--
Eureka, CA
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Re: Ever done a zipper merge?
Posted by: Wags
Date: September 29, 2022 07:22PM
People are actually capable of cooperative driving occasionally. Here in Portland the east bound entrance to the Ross Island Bridge is an example. There are two lanes coming through an S curve and just before the bridge two other single lanes merge, one on each side, staggered about 30 yards. One has a yield sign, the other is a stop sign. For a couple hours during evening commute when everything is jammed drivers begin the jippering at both merges, even though the oncoming lanes have the actual right of way.
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Re: Ever done a zipper merge?
Posted by: Fritz
Date: September 30, 2022 03:41PM
I learned roundabouts in Turks & Caicos.
It does not seem to "translate" well to NY.

In NY, people people drive even more recklessly than with stop signs.
If I had a nickel for every time I've been cut off while in the roundabout, the words would make me out 'n' out (see what I did there?).

But the important thing is that some contractor made a bundle putting them in and maintaining the flower bed in the middle when a drunk "misses the turn".

Zipper merge!? Hah!




!#$@@$#!

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Re: Ever done a zipper merge?
Posted by: Fritz
Date: September 30, 2022 03:45PM
I learned roundabouts in Turks & Caicos.
It does not seem to "translate" well to NY.

NY is too far from civilization.
People drive even more recklessly than with stop signs.
If I had a nickel for every time I've been cut off while in the roundabout, the words would make me out 'n' out (see what I did there?).

The red light means "drive faster than the camera". argh!

The important thing is that some contractor made a bundle putting them in (for a month) and maintaining the flower bed in the middle when a drunk "misses the turn".

Zipper merge!? Hah!


I wonder what kind of mileage I can expect from a tankette?



!#$@@$#!

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Re: Ever done a zipper merge?
Posted by: Speedy
Date: October 01, 2022 01:07PM
Fritz, maybe you could merge your two posts in some roundabout way.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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