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AppleCare Hell; Follow-Up, Part G – “The Participants Enter the Ring”
Posted by: Buzz
Date: January 24, 2006 12:19PM
Sorry for the delay in this update, but I fell down last night before the kid finished his homework, and my back is still sore this morning. Hazards of the rampant nerve damage in the old body. As noted, Apple & CUSA both responded on the same day yesterday! Olga (from Follow-UP, Part D [forums.macresource.com]), finally called me back, shortly before 4 PM yesterday, after she said AppleCare’s Ali finally reached her directly, and asked her to call. Olga stated that she hadn’t gotten any of the prior messages that both Ali and I had left for her. We spoke for about 20 minutes, and I gave her an overview of the history of this matter, and she wanted “to look into it”.

I thought this was quite odd, because all she kept asking was if I had the receipt, and if I was sure the AppleCare sale was part of the same MDD sale. Olga seemed oblivious to the fraudulent aspects of the sale, and to the privacy violations CUSA made by their unauthorized selling of the MDD w/ other people’s data on it. She was originally content just to offer to fix the MDD, to which I responded I expected a new machine, and people whose data they wrongfully shared to also be properly compensated. I had to ask her several times for her contact information, telling her I intended to send her all of the documentation, and the links to the record in this forum. Olga seemed preoccupied the entire conversation.

When I then spoke w/ AppleCare’s Ali about half an hour later, Ali stated that in fact she had not spoken w/ Olga directly, that she had only been able to leave messages for her previously. I gave Ali the details of my conversation w/ Olga, including the contact info, so that Ali could update the case file. I also told Ali of the Customer Relations survey I had received yesterday morning, and that I had taken that opportunity to empty both barrels at Apple’s lack of a proper resolution. Ali put me on hold, to speak w/ a superior in Customer Relations, and then came back, as apologetic as ever, saying that for the time being, AppleCare’s position was that this mess was entirely CUSA’s doing, and that AppleCare would only continue to help effect a resolution through CUSA.

I told her to visualize that it was her data on the MDD rather than the designer’s, and asked her if she would still be content w/ Apple’s handling of the situation, letting her data and privacy go unprotected in direct contradiction to Apple’s published Privacy Statement. Ali readily agreed that she would not be comfortable w/ it being her data in that situation. Double standards are everywhere.

I gave Ali another earful of why Apple should take responsibility, and asked if Apple condoned fraudulent sales of their products coupled w/ egregious, and wholly preventable, violations of their customers' privacy. She stated that while she personally wished she could more, her hands were tied, and that while she didn’t feel Apple condoned such transgressions, it was CUSA that actually made them. I stated that unless Apple made things right after reasonable attempts to resolve matters w/ CUSA, Apple was in fact condoning their reseller’s actions. It is my opinion that reasonable attempts have long since been exceeded.

I sensed Ali grappling w/ the magnitude of the whole thing after speaking w/ her superior while I was on hold, and then it dawned on me that she might not be totally up to speed on the details. I asked her what time we spoke on Friday, in our last substantive conversation, and whether she had yet followed the saga here. I then realized she didn’t know that I finally found “P.M.” after we spoke on Friday, and that the magnitude of the situation had actually grown. “P.M.” was able to account for his data and term of ownership, and the designer was able to account for her data. There is still additional data that is not accounted for, and I think Ali grasped the significance of that, which she said she also noted in the case file.

It left her thinking, and Ali said she was going to try again today to [really] reach Olga directly and would call me w/ an update. By then it was already a few minutes past the closing bell at Customer Relations, so that’s where we left it. I suspect once the designer’s privacy specialist gets through to CUSA and AppleCare this will get wrapped up. I kinda feel like I’m the Banderillero or Picador, to the privacy specialist’s Matador. I’m awaiting permission to send some of the more private documents to Olga, and hopefully she’ll be less preoccupied when she reads them,

Buzz
==

Part I – Beginning of Saga [forums.macresource.com]
Part VI – End of Saga w/ Replies [forums.macresource.com]
Follow-Up, Part A [forums.macresource.com]
Follow-Up, Part B [forums.macresource.com]
Follow-Up, Part C [forums.macresource.com]
Follow-Up, Part D [forums.macresource.com]
Follow-Up, Part E [forums.macresource.com]
Follow-Up, Part F [forums.macresource.com]



Sometimes it is what it is...
and then there's times when it's really better.



==
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Re: AppleCare Hell; Follow-Up, Part G – “The Participants Enter the Ring”
Posted by: WHiiP
Date: January 24, 2006 12:26PM
"WE" await the outcome . . . again . . . breath clean, not baited (sic) . . . grinning smiley

drinking smiley cheers





Bill
Flagler Beach, FL 32136

Carpe Vino!

Fermentation may have been a greater discovery than fire.
— David Rains Wallace
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Re: AppleCare Hell; Follow-Up, Part G – “The Participants Enter the Ring”
Posted by: Markintosh
Date: January 24, 2006 12:34PM
So what is the membership of MRPF these days? Are you pointing out these things out to Olga? There's a lot of people that are following this saga that will likely think 1000 times before spending another nickel at CUSA. I really avoid the place anyways...and with an Apple Store opening in Reno...I can avoid CUSA forever.
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Re: AppleCare Hell; Follow-Up, Part G – “The Participants Enter the Ring”
Posted by: anonymouse1
Date: January 24, 2006 12:34PM
Try some Aleve for that back. WAAAY better than aspirin or Tylenol.
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Re: AppleCare Hell; Follow-Up, Part G – “The Participants Enter the Ring”
Posted by: Buzz
Date: January 24, 2006 01:27PM
anonymouse1- actually, I'd prefer some good single malt scotch, but with the extent of my neurological damage, the docs have told me that will exacerbate my condition, so I've been dry for WAAAY too long. The docs have seen to it, however, that I have adequate medication available B)



Sometimes it is what it is...
and then there's times when it's really better.



==
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Re: AppleCare Hell; Follow-Up, Part G – “The Participants Enter the Ring”
Posted by: richorlin
Date: January 24, 2006 01:30PM
I'm having trouble understanding what you want Apple to do in this matter. They didn't sell you the computer. Even though the computer was not eligible for Applecare they have agreed to cover repairs on for the remainder of the Applecare contract. I think that's pretty reasonable on their part.
Based on the info that you have conveyed to us, it appears that CompUSA made a fraudulent sale and they misrepresented the computer. At this point, if it were me, I would contact my state Attorney General and the FTC and convince them to open cases on this. Perhaps you're not he first one to be victimized by CompUSA in this manner.
Also, I would not be fighting for the rights of P.M. and the designer. You've made them aware of what's happened and that's all you can be expected to do. Keep the resolution of your problem and compensation for them as two separate issues. It will be easier to get a satisfactory resolution to a single issue dealing with only one person (you).
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Re: AppleCare Hell; Follow-Up, Part G – “The Participants Enter the Ring”
Posted by: vicrock
Date: January 24, 2006 02:09PM
I agree with richorlin - your beef is with CUSA - and I'd be looking at the Attorney General, small claims court and contact with your local TV consumer advocate - negative publicity on network TV is something that businesses HATE with a passion - and usually make things right very quickly.

The other two injured parties in this should be seeking separate action against CUSA - and not be a part of this.
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Re: AppleCare Hell; Follow-Up, Part G – “The Participants Enter the Ring”
Posted by: GGD
Date: January 24, 2006 02:17PM
> Also, I would not be fighting for the rights of P.M.

From reading all of this, I think P.M. has the weakest argument of all. If he had important personal data on a hard drive, he should have taken some reasonable steps to protect it before selling the computer back to CUSA, like at least dragging it to the trash, and possibly even emptying the trash, and ideally zeroing the drive and reloading from the restore disk. His actions were really no different than all of the people whole sell used computers on ebay, donate to Goodwill, or dump at the curb. They are responsible for keeping their private data private.

The website privacy policies apply to personal information that these companies request from you, not personal data that is abandoned on their doorsteps, and it's a huge stretch to claim that Apple's privacy policy would somehow apply to this situation, since they never requested, had possession, or knew of the existence of P.M's data.

I long ago decided that I would never buy an Apple product from CUSA after one time when I had to wait 20 minutes for the one person in the store that had the key to a locked display case that contained the $10 item that I wanted to purchase, and while I was waiting I looked around at their Apple stuff for sale. They wanted $149 for an Apple PowerBook battery, when the Apple list price was $129. At that price, I suspect that the battery wasn't very "fresh" either.

Good luck with this, I think CUSA is where the entire problem lies, although their final position might not be anything more than to cheerfully refund your entire purchase price and allow you to return the computer long after their return policy allows, and not charge a restocking fee. If you really want to go after them for fraud, then it's probably not a good idea to be talking or negotiating with them.
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Re: AppleCare Hell; Follow-Up, Part G – “The Participants Enter the Ring”
Posted by: prof
Date: January 24, 2006 02:24PM
I would think one of the local news consumer advocate segments would be chomping at the bit at the opportunity to report CUSA's fraudulent dealings & mistreatment of a disabled customer.
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Re: AppleCare Hell; Follow-Up, Part G – “The Participants Enter the Ring”
Posted by: Paul F.
Date: January 24, 2006 02:57PM
I don't think Buzz is wrong for contacting Apple on this one...

CUSA is selling an Apple product, as an Apple AUTHORIZED RESELLER, and advertising and selling the APPLE extended warranty.
In this arangement, they are acting as a direct agent of Apple.
CUSA's problem is Apple's problem in this case because the agreement between CUSA and Apple makes it that way.






Paul F.
-----
A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.

--

--

--
Eureka, CA
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Re: AppleCare Hell; Follow-Up, Part G – “The Participants Enter the Ring”
Posted by: Buzz
Date: January 24, 2006 03:07PM
richorlin- Apple allows CUSA to sell Apple products. I presume the agreement that allows CUSA to do so provides clauses governing fraudulent sales, terms of sales, and privacy issues related to sales; all of which CUSA violated. For Apple to to not step after reasonable notice, is Apple's acquiescence to the violations, and since Apple has benefited from CUSA's fraudulent sales, at some point they become equally guilty.

vicrock/prof- I'm giving it a few more days for this matter to get high enough up the food chain on its own, then the pertinent documentation and the links to here will be forwarded to the local TV consumer advocates. After that, then maybe the other routes you mentioned.

GGD- I'm not fighting for the rights of the others per se, as much as making light of the fact that both CUSA and Apple have been advised that in addition to CUSA's patently fraudulent sale, both companies are ignoring the rights of those others that have been violated. Their corporate duties are not to be ignorant, but rather to protect the privacy of their customers at all levels. You also assume "P.M." was a sophisticated enough user that he knew, or should have known, enough, and how, to protect his data when he returned the machine. The preservation of "P.M.'s" privacy falls squarely on CUSA's expertise, and collaterally on Apple's to maintain the sanctity of their reseller agreement. He didn't leave it on the curb, or donate it, he paid a $300 restocking fee for a computer that was subsequently sold "as new"; a situation where the new buyer (me) would not expect expect to find a prior, non-disclosed owner's data on it. CUSA's and Apple's options to "cheerfully refund [my] entire purchase price and allow [me] to return the computer long after their return policy allows, and not charge a restocking fee..." expired as soon as they tried to conceal the true history of the machine.



Sometimes it is what it is...
and then there's times when it's really better.



==
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Re: AppleCare Hell; Follow-Up, Part G – “The Participants Enter the Ring”
Posted by: MartyStickle
Date: January 24, 2006 03:07PM
Buzz, when this is all done, I don't know what I'm going to do with my time!
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Re: AppleCare Hell; Follow-Up, Part G – “The Participants Enter the Ring”
Posted by: JPK
Date: January 24, 2006 03:45PM
I have been following the saga.

I too think you should focus your efforts on CUSA. Apple's culpability here is peripheral at best. From my take, this is not Apple's problem to fix. While CUSA is an authorized reseller by contract, Apple cannot control what CUSA employess do or say or don't do or don't say.

In a perfect world, Apple should pull there agreement, but for much bigger reasons than this. The truth is, your story isn't even a pimple on the ass of Apple's wave of ipod mania. CUSA has a long standing rep of localized ethical lapses. Like on "Earl" last week, I think CUSA management is happier not knowing the widespread ineptness that occurs every day at their stores. I wish Apple would have pulled out of CUSA years ago, but the truth is, they still move a lot of Apple stuff through CUSA.

CUSA is very very bad. I learned long before your saga that they are bad.

Luckily I have a MicroCenter close by for my immediate needs that cannot be fulfilled from ecommerce.

It sounds like you have lots of time to spend on this, actually too much. You have given CUSA ample opportunity to step up. Like other have previously said, find a lawyer friend and file a small claims case or call you local tv news consomer "fixer" and shine some spotlight on it. This is a bigger deal now than when you first started the saga. Fraud seems pretty clear to me. Clearly the breach of privacy is also a very big issue. While you are reaching an audience here, it is time to push this into the mainstream. This will get their attention.
JPK
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Re: AppleCare Hell; Follow-Up, Part G – “The Participants Enter the Ring”
Posted by: h'
Date: January 24, 2006 06:06PM
It sounds like you have lots of time to spend on this, actually too much. You have given CUSA ample opportunity to step up. Like other have previously said, find a lawyer friend and file a small claims case or call you local tv news consomer "fixer" and shine some spotlight on it. This is a bigger deal now than when you first started the saga. Fraud seems pretty clear to me. Clearly the breach of privacy is also a very big issue. While you are reaching an audience here, it is time to push this into the mainstream. This will get their attention.
-----
I agree with this.

So much good could be done in the world with all the phone and e-mail time you're spending on this-- do you think anything's going to change when they finally offer you a replacement, or whatever?

Do you have any other causes dear to your heart? What about disability rights? Isn't there a business around your part of town you can't physically access?

I also think you're crossed the line too many times in your communication to Apple (as you describe it) and they're thinking they're dealing with a nut job and waiting for you to go the rest of the way off your meds and dissapear off their radar. If your Apple gal seems to be filing her nails, well-- she probably is and I'm not sure I blame her. In my job, I have a strong sense of wanting to present the best possible image, but when it starts to seem like an unhappy client just can't be satisfied-- there's plenty of other work piling up.





I suffer from the same sensitivity that you do. A few nuggets of wisdom were shared with me and I'm "trying" to incorporate them into my life. First, remember that nobody can hurt your feelings unless you let them. You can always reject what is being forced on you emotionally.
Second, nothing changes unless you change it. If you don't want the behavior to be repeated then you need to take action. Otherwise the kid has learned that his behavior is the way to get things done, because everyone lets him get away with it.
In the meantime I sympathize because I've been there.
-beerman
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Re: AppleCare Hell; Follow-Up, Part G – “The Participants Enter the Ring”
Posted by: bruceko
Date: January 24, 2006 07:36PM
I just don't see your plight. Yes Compusa is worse than worthless but for you to be made whole should only require refunding you money.
As far as Pm's data that you found you have no standing. You can not demand damages for his injury.
You in your own frenzy you seem to trying to extort product from Apple and Compusa.
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Re: AppleCare Hell; Follow-Up, Part G – “The Participants Enter the Ring”
Posted by: Ken Sp.
Date: January 24, 2006 07:40PM
Can you imagine if the computer contained Microsoft or Adobe retail programs-they would be all over this and have the SPA (Gestapo-Software Publishers Alliance) go after CUSA.
Hey--just tell the RIAA there are downloaded songs on there--they will hire 12 attorneys to sue someone :-)
I agree--Apple is far removed-they "sold" the computer to CUSA--CUSA resold this a few time.
This is not right-and I have bought a few CUSA demos and have found the same thing--and I enjoyed the additional software included winking smiley
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Re: AppleCare Hell; Follow-Up, Part G – “The Participants Enter the Ring”
Posted by: Buzz
Date: January 24, 2006 07:56PM
JPK/h'- if my body worked, I'd be playing ball w/ my kid, or walking along the beach w/ my wife, or playing golf if they weren't available. I will be turfing this to the local TV consumer "fixers" next week, if this hasn't been resolved satisfactorily. In the mean time, which apparently I have too much of, I will continue to pound occasionally on CUSA and Apple, primarily from the confines of my articulating desk chair. I'm keeping a record here on a public forum, so that CUSA and Apple can't claim I didn't do enough to let them know.

As I noted before, if Apple and CUSA had gotten their heads around this thing early on, I would be fat dumb and happy, and have a working MDD now, under AppleCare, that had no remnants of prior use that I would have ever been able to find. Instead, Apple is stonewalling me and CUSA has been trying to conceal their own fraud. BTW, the Apple gal is attentive, clearly not filing her nails, but is not high enough up the food chain to right this ship by herself. I'm easily satisfied; when people do the right thing, or even what appears to be the right thing as I just noted above.

There is no justification for CUSA's or Apple's positions, this is simply a case of getting the grease to the right cog. In that vain, After Olga called back, I got permission to send the balance of the documentation to her, which I did, and I have since gotten a quick reply back from her acknowledging the problem. The designer's privacy specialist has also ferreted out what is apparently the correct legal department at CUSA and is expecting contact tomorrow.

So, as this continues to play out, I'll continue to wonder who else's data is sitting here; if you've ever been to a CUSA store, maybe it's even yours..., if not, pretend it's yours while thinking about your next reply ;)



Sometimes it is what it is...
and then there's times when it's really better.



==
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Re: AppleCare Hell; Follow-Up, Part G – “The Participants Enter the Ring”
Posted by: Racer X
Date: January 24, 2006 08:22PM
Ken Sp. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I agree--Apple is far removed-they "sold" the
> computer to CUSA--CUSA resold this a few time.
> This is not right-and I have bought a few CUSA
> demos and have found the same thing--and I enjoyed
> the additional software included winking smiley


Ken, the fact that CUSA made the purchase of Applecare mandatory as part of the deal in and of itself probably violates the agreement between Apple and CUSA allowing CUSA to be an authorized reseller.

Apple should get involved, if only to protect their percieved public image.
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Re: AppleCare Hell; Follow-Up, Part G – “The Participants Enter the Ring”
Posted by: JTman
Date: January 24, 2006 09:41PM
Where can I find saga part IV?

Thanks,

JT
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Re: AppleCare Hell; Follow-Up, Part G – “The Participants Enter the Ring”
Posted by: h'
Date: January 25, 2006 01:32AM
I keep forgetting to ask-- shouldn't you have wiped that hard drive, or at least not looked at it, when you realized you had someone else's data at your disposal? Instead you studied it and preserved it. I wonder if you could be implicated for violating the designer's privacy? What would you want done if someone found your data on their computer?



I suffer from the same sensitivity that you do. A few nuggets of wisdom were shared with me and I'm "trying" to incorporate them into my life. First, remember that nobody can hurt your feelings unless you let them. You can always reject what is being forced on you emotionally.
Second, nothing changes unless you change it. If you don't want the behavior to be repeated then you need to take action. Otherwise the kid has learned that his behavior is the way to get things done, because everyone lets him get away with it.
In the meantime I sympathize because I've been there.
-beerman
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Re: AppleCare Hell; Follow-Up, Part G – “The Participants Enter the Ring”
Posted by: Buzz
Date: January 25, 2006 01:55AM
Ken Sp. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I agree--Apple is far removed-they "sold" the
> computer to CUSA--CUSA resold this a few time.
> This is not right-and I have bought a few CUSA
> demos and have found the same thing--and I enjoyed
> the additional software included winking smiley

Ken- I hope the winky doesn't mean you copied the drive from the iMac I gave you last year before sending the drive back... btw, that was a slick trick folding the Maxtor box inside out to send it back in. btw2, said iMac was one of the four machines that went down and were replaced w/ eMacs that I alluded to earlier in the saga...

Racer- agreed.

bruceko- You should really check w/ your clergyman or probation officer before posting. CUSA committed fraud in the real world, they're not a two year old that spilled his milk and blamed it on the family cat. They don't get a "do over" just because their fraud was discovered. They "sold" me an "as new" PowerMac tower w/ 3 years of AppleCare. When I discovered, at great length, what they "sold" me wasn't what they really sold me, and it was obviously not just an honest mistake that CUSA has now gone out of their way NOT to make right; I am entitled to a current new PowerMac w/ 3 years of AppleCare from when it is finally made right. The privacy violations only go to validate the wrongness of their actions towards me, and support my claim. Monetarily, the privacy violations likely outweigh my basic claim, and those claims certainly belong to those whose privacy was violated. CUSA's and Apple's actions in stonewalling and concealment, however, add to my claim.

h'- when I first decided to put the MDD into service for personal use after Thanksgiving, I didn't know what was on the machine. I saw some stray data, and was going to back it up DVD to take back to CUSA without poking through it. The MDD started acting up rather quickly, so I tried to stabilize it w/ DiskWarrior and OS updates, which only served to confirm that the MDD was more messed up than I thought. I took it into MacMall, fully expecting the drive to be replaced, and whatever else was needed, and that I'd never see whatever had been on the drive again. 24 days into the saga, without resolution, and the machine still sitting idle at MacMall, AppleCare ratted out "P.M." to substantiate not fixing the MDD even though I had been sold AppleCare w/ it.

What they really did, was to confirm CUSA's fraud. When I got the MDD back over 5 weeks after dropping it off at MacMall, I backed up the drive to protect my claim, and to see what additional evidence of CUSA's fraud might be there. The MDD itself was not stable enough to work from. Had the MDD worked as it should have when I tried to put it into service, I would have given the DVD(s) to CUSA and erased the drive; it's always best to start w/ a fresh drive. With the backup that I made, I have only looked deep enough to discern the identities of "P.M." and the designer, and the presence of what appears to be sensitive data; I have no intention of looking at the contents of the data itself, as contacting "P.M." and the designer has confirmed that the data is theirs, which is all that is at issue.



Sometimes it is what it is...
and then there's times when it's really better.



==



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/25/2006 02:36AM by Buzz.
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Re: AppleCare Hell; Follow-Up, Part G – “The Participants Enter the Ring”
Posted by: Ken Sp.
Date: January 25, 2006 12:02PM
Nope-Buzz
That Drive went out the same hour I took it out-ASAP
The CUSA demo I got was a Powerbook Titanium that was the CompUSA Demo machine that had Broken Hinges--I fixed the laptop and sold it to a friend, but I Mirated all the "Demo" apps to my PowerBook 17"
I had a small issue one time, and took it to the Apple Store genius--he wondered why my username was CompUSA :-)
I got an older G4/400 Giga Ethernet from CompUSA that needed a new Processor--It had some stuff on the drive---but I am sure it was a machine they did a warranty on for a customer. It didn't boot-so they thought Motherboard-I bought it for $69 while it was still lamost a current model, and just put another G4/400 processor in it. Still going strong-but slow :-)
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