Wow...

Well, it’s rusting out.

And the heat control dial kind of looks like a Dali painting.

Then there’s that extra (bonus!) red wire.

Should be good for another 10 years, at least.

The symptom is that the pilot goes out about once a day. So far, every "fix" for pilot-light-won't-stay-lit only describe pilot lights that won't stay lit after successful lighting (i.e., when you let up on the gas know and/or turn the knob over to "ON."

So this text is mostly a separate topic from the picture above, asking you to identify the visual issues, because it works just great ... for about a day.

The water heater is 27 years old, made back when water heaters could last 27 years (circa 1996).

This is not a backdraft issue. The water heater is a direct vent type, not normally affected by whatever negative pressure is in the house. Also, there are no known sources of other things sucking air out of the house: furnace also takes air from outside, dryer is ventless, range is electric, microwave is a table top model, vent above range doesn't vent outside ... we're not running the fireplace, there's no attic fan, so there's nothing really pulling inside out outside that would suck out the pilot light here.

--> So, I figured I'd replace the thermocouple and/or clean the rest while the burner assembly is removed.

The thing is ... you see that separate combustion chamber door, being held closed by the brick? I don't yet see how the burner assembly can be removed since it won't come out that door. So I'm hoping what looks like two screws on the left allow the assembly to come out with its mounting plate the tubes all go through.

And that's assuming I can get an answer from the maker which thermocouple to buy.

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pdq
Well, it’s rusting out.

And the heat control dial kind of looks like a Dali painting.

Then there’s that extra (bonus!) red wire.

Should be good for another 10 years, at least.

Bonus anomaly: When we first got here a couple weeks ago, I smelled gas in that area of the basement. But the water heater wasn't losing its pilot light. We called the gas company, and they came with their sniffer. One of the guys says, "Oh yeah I smell it already."

They sniffed every connection, every whatever, all over, at water heater, furnace, some other lines ... nothing. Zero leaks. "Call us if your CO2 alarm goes off."

Haven't really smelled the gas since except when lighting, once a day.

wow, it had a good run. If you manage to fix it, it may run for another 10 years.

If you can't fix it and need to replace it, good luck, whatever you buy you'll be lucky if it works more than 10 years.

This might be a good time to go tankless.

This water heater is a standard 40-gallon size, but instead of getting an equivalent here's what I'm thinking:

Relatively near the water heater (in feet, not location) are these items:

Basement: a bath sink, a utility sink (both seldom used), a washing machine (we typically use cold water, but hot water availability would be good).

Main floor: bathroom, kitchen with dishwasher


Relatively far away from the water heater are these items:
Upstairs: bathroom at opposite end
There's also a quasi shower (don't ask) at the opposite end of the basement seldom used.

--> I'm thinking replace the water heater with a tankless of less equivalency for just the items near it, and for upstairs bath plumb that for its own tankless (electric.) I already have some other plans for the upstairs bath, like running 220 to the wall closet behind it and moving our compact washer/dryer up there since the rest of the plumbing for that bath is already exposed in the long closet behind the bathroom.

mine is being replaced right now.
Heat-Flo indirect 40g.

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!#$@@$#!

proofraed by OwEn the c@t.

Keep in mind with the tankless: you'll have to run water a bit longer in order to get hot water.

I find I have to turn the shower on before I use it in order to get the hot water going - usually less than 5 minutes - I'll have to time it to be sure.

But then at the other house I have to run the water in order to get the hot water to the second floor and that's a tank.

5 minutes ??

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deckeda
This might be a good time to go tankless.
...

It might be, but do you have a location that you can run a large enough exhaust vent? Your existing flue will probably not be suitable for use with a tankless heater.

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deckeda
5 minutes ??

It's probably less than that but will time it...

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JoeH

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deckeda
This might be a good time to go tankless.
...

It might be, but do you have a location that you can run a large enough exhaust vent? Your existing flue will probably not be suitable for use with a tankless heater.

Direct vent gas water heaters use a 4" or larger fitting, because both intake and exhaust go through it (one pipe is inside the other.) It exits through a plate that used to be a 6x8" window pane.

deckeda,

The thermocouple is flaky, acting like a teenager. Replace it.

However, with the age of that heater, I'd replace the whole unit with another standard gas unit. It will still work if/when the power goes out, as there are no electrical connections.

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Ed (modelamac)

I think I will just put an OUT OF ORDER
sticker on my head and call it a day.

the new one went in with a Copper Tube Fittings Hydraulic Pipe Crimping Tool instead of sweating.
fittings supposedly have a longer life with this instead of sweat.
faster job, certainly.
cool tool.

---

!#$@@$#!

proofraed by OwEn the c@t.

I'm worried about the gas line. Is there a sediment trap on the main line before you get to the flex hose ? If not... you may have gunk buildup in the pilot gas nozzle. Heck, that may be the case anyway...

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modelamac
deckeda,

The thermocouple is flaky, acting like a teenager. Replace it.

However, with the age of that heater, I'd replace the whole unit with another standard gas unit. It will still work if/when the power goes out, as there are no electrical connections.

Not sure I'll be able to locate a replacement thermocouple prior to taking it out, assuming I can even take it out. I would enjoy trading this water heater for the $10 or whatever the local metal recycler will give me.

I was under the impression new gas models had electronic valves today? That's what I installed in our last hose we owned. Overall, electricity going out isn't much of an issue for us here. At least, not for very long.

I'm also considering electric, or heat pump electric if we can cough up the dough. We had electric in our last place and it worked well, except for an overflow that sometimes seeped. It would be very easy for me to run a new 220 line over to the location.

The local co-op has "a plan" that provides the non-serviceable Rheem Marathon (elements are not replaceable) with a warranty as long as you remain a customer. We swapped one out at another location by plopping it on their dock and taking a new one home.

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cbelt3
I'm worried about the gas line. Is there a sediment trap on the main line before you get to the flex hose ? If not... you may have gunk buildup in the pilot gas nozzle. Heck, that may be the case anyway...

Yeah it's got the sediment trap. Unless the pilot flame is weak --- to only sometimes talk to the thermocouple --- I don't suspect a supply issue of any kind.

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Lizabeth

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deckeda
5 minutes ??

It's probably less than that but will time it...

Just timed it - 1.5 minutes on full hot.

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deckeda
I was under the impression new gas models had electronic valves today? That's what I installed in our last hose we owned. Overall, electricity going out isn't much of an issue for us here. At least, not for very long.

Only if they use electronic ignition instead of a constantly burning pilot. Some are going that way for slightly better efficiency, but it really doesn't make that much difference. Unlike a gas stove, some of the heat from the pilot burning does get absorbed by the water in the tank.

Looking at the pictures posted here is a reminder that my state has some stringent codes related to gas installations. Black iron pipe for the gas supply line, not galvanized like I see in one picture. Then there is the flex line. For years they were not allowed other than as a short flex line to connect a stove. Then the use of CSST was allowed, then banned in 2008 for a period of time due to lightning strikes burning down a couple buildings. Lack of a consistent bonding method was called out, the thin walls of CSST did not stand up to the currents involved in a lightning strike. Individual cities and towns may have more stringent rules in place than the state still.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/08/2022 02:15PM by JoeH.

I am grateful for my no-AC-required gas-fired tank water heater w/ standing pilot.

Tankless are a huge boon to plumbers...cost twice as much installed plus you'll be calling them for the regular maintenance they need.

27 years old - that’s quite a feat. Most last about 15 years. I think it’s time to install a new one.

Quote
Bill in NC
I am grateful for my no-AC-required gas-fired tank water heater w/ standing pilot.

Tankless are a huge boon to plumbers...cost twice as much installed plus you'll be calling them for the regular maintenance they need.

If I go tankless I'll install and maintain it myself. I never maintained any tank heater, and they eventually fail as a result.

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deckeda
If I go tankless I'll install and maintain it myself. I never maintained any tank heater, and they eventually fail as a result.

When I asked about tankless, the plumber said he'd be happy to convert us to tankless, but once we factor in the price to run a larger gas line to the house it was unlikely to make sense.

---

Quote
deckeda
I was under the impression new gas models had electronic valves today? That's what I installed in our last hose we owned. Overall, electricity going out isn't much of an issue for us here. At least, not for very long.

There are 2 types of electronic valves:
One which uses line (120v) voltage, and needs to be plugged in, and, one which uses a piezo electric valve, which does not need line voltage, and doesn’t have a pilot light.

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deckeda
nothing. Zero leaks. "Call us if your CO2 alarm goes off."

Wouldn't that be going off constantly?

Quote
Bill in NC
I am grateful for my no-AC-required gas-fired tank water heater w/ standing pilot.

Tankless are a huge boon to plumbers...cost twice as much installed plus you'll be calling them for the regular maintenance they need.

Yeah, but the wife insisted.

Then, the price went up by $2K because the place she wanted it would have stuck pipes out into the driveway, and the place where it wound up required demolishing the concrete slop sink.

But, she can now take hour long baths and not run out of hot water.

So, there's that.

---

--------------

Embarassing myself on the Internet since 1978.

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raz
But, she can now take hour long baths and not run out of hot water.

So, there's that.

Has she considered employing the drain stop?

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mattkime

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raz
But, she can now take hour long baths and not run out of hot water.

So, there's that.

Has she considered employing the drain stop?

My impression from walking near the bathroom is that any water temperature below boiling is 'luke warm' and needs to be topped off.

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--------------

Embarassing myself on the Internet since 1978.

The pilot light going out every day, a 27 year old water heater, and obvious rust on the lower part of the combustion chamber!? This to me suggests that the tank may be rusting through (which would mean that the pilot light was going out due to water dripping from the base of the tank) and might give way at any time with a giant whooshing sound and a nonstop cascade of water from the tank contents and now completely open cold inlet pipe (ask me how I know about this!). Of course, it might just be a bad thermocouple, but these are very common symptoms of tank rust-through. It's pretty likely that the sacrificial anode in that tank is completely gone by now, which means its only a matter of time before tank failure. Get a new water heater now!

Also, tankless water heaters are not a panacea and they have significant cons (initial cost, maintenance, need for higher volume exhaust, inlet, gas service, poor efficiency [due to higher temperature differentials], etc.). They are good for plumber bottom lines though.

---

"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2022 09:33PM by davester.

I’m leaning towards a heat pump type, if I can stomach the initial cost. While not perfect (there’s still a tank, and the heat pump makes noise and a colder basement colder) everything else that matters most has advantages.