Nope, no pictures!

Yes the house has working gutters that mostly aim water away from the house. And after about 80 years we believe all settling has settled. Ground water is coming in; I do not see larger cracks that hint at structural problems.

And I don't intend to dig a moat and seal from the outside. So I'm researching methods for the inside. There is evidence of past patches, some successful, some less so.

Here is a summary I copied from a business who does this repair (not local):

Temporary fixes
These methods are generally not recommended as a permanent solution as they wear out over time. They are good options when you need a quick temporary fix before repairing your basement wall cracks.
• Caulk crack repair: This simple method takes caulk and plugs it into the crack to fill the space. It is a good way to temporarily fill in cracks that are smaller to prevent water from entering basement.
• Hydraulic cement crack fillings: With this method, contractors chisel an inverted-V groove into the basement wall cracks. It is then filled with rigid, hydraulic cement to plug the hole. The bond with the cement is not always strong, so this is should only be used as a temporary method.
• Epoxy crack injections: The epoxy seals are a much stronger and rigid method of repairing basement wall cracks. This method must be applied on a dry surface. Since it is rigid, if the concrete in the basement walls expands or contracts over time, the plug can fall out.
 
 
More permanent fixes
These permanent repair methods are a better way to fix most basement wall cracks.
• Polyurethane polymer: Using a high-viscosity polyurethane polymer is one of the best ways of sealing basement wall cracks. This is stronger and more durable than an epoxy, and it can be applied even if the wall is wet. The polymer can expand and contract with the wall, so you don’t have to worry about further cracks.
• Urethane sealing: While not as strong as polyurethane polymer, this is better able to expand and shrink than an epoxy. It has a maximum expansion limit, so it is not useful on wide cracks.


My take on this is that epoxy would work if it ever stops raining here (!) or polyurethane, which according to the description above doesn't seem to have drawbacks unless it's miserable to apply or whatever.

>Nope, no pictures!

There are leaks and then there are leaks. How much water are we talking about? Is the basement finished?

>And I don't intend to dig a moat and seal from the outside

Do you have a rough idea of how much that might cost? I'm sure my house would benefit from something similar but its been too low on the priority list for me to investigate.

Obviously the temporary fixes are hardly worth considering. My concern with the permanent fixes would be that you might plug one spot and find another, repeat forever.

Have you examined the grading around your home? Do you have a sump pump and is it working well?

---

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2022 09:17AM by mattkime.

Is it poured concrete or concrete block?
You could try the DryLock stuff and see if that helps, if the water is coming through the walls.
It also depends if it is coming from a crack or weeping though the blocks, if it is block construction.
Is the water coming through the walls or from where the wall meets the floor?
We do need more info
I had a problem basement for years. Ours was poured concrete, which usually means cracks and water from where the floor meets the walls. I sealed the joint from floor to wall, and all cracks with hydraulic cement.

---

Roswell, GA (Atlanta suburb)

Agree with mattkime. Seems like even a permanent approach with the polymer will result in a leak somewhere else.

The primary reason water is coming in is because it is not flowing away from the house.

Invest your time and efforts into extending your downspouts to carry the water farther away from the foundation.

How much water are we talking about? Is the basement finished?

3 of the 4 sides are leaking at various locations. It's rained all week, and I can how hear water exiting a floor drain. It's flowing. The basement is unfinished. Cement slab with cement walls. The cement seems to be much better shape than 80-yr old cement has any right to be.


Do you have a rough idea of how much [external sealing[ might cost?

My imagination doesn't go that high. Anyway, we have water coming in some areas where digging above isn't an option.

My concern with the permanent fixes would be that you might plug one spot and find another, repeat forever.

It is true water will find the easiest path and possibly enter via a crack that isn't currently leaking after others are sealed. But I don't actually see that happening "forever."


Have you examined the grading around your home? Do you have a sump pump and is it working well?

No sump. The grade is essentially level (flat). I was told a similar house next door had a sump pump, but I don't know what determines that. That grade is also flat. The house on the other side (all same era) does not have a sump pump, either. It's been a while since I was in that basement. That other house was built with a channel in the floor surrounding most of the basement, leading to a drain.

You haven't mentioned what the basement walls are constructed from. Poured concrete, concrete block, stone, etc? That makes a difference. Some of the methods applied to the interior wall would just be setting them up for future failures if there is a continuing pressure from ground water outside the walls. That would also depend on the wall material.

You need to install a sump pump. My house is 95 years old and had one installed in the past decade - the triggering event was a failed gutter system that dumped a ton of water next to the foundation, eventually flooding the basement. (at least thats why I think the basement walls were painted) The failed gutter fiasco happened under the previous owners.

I'm not 100% certain that it will fix your problem but its a great starting point. A quick google search says it would cost about $2k to have a sump pump installed but I have no idea how accurate that is.

Your house becomes a boat, and a leaky one at that, once the foundation is surrounded by water.

---

While we're on the topic, do you have a dehumidifier in your basement? If not, you probably need one. Does your basement smell musty?

---

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2022 09:55AM by mattkime.

Quote
deckeda

My imagination doesn't go that high. Anyway, we have water coming in some areas where digging above isn't an option.

Not to belabor the point, but if you create a lower or more distant point for the water to drain towards then it will cease to leak in through these existing areas. No need to dig and seal the exterior.

Is the water coming in via the seam between the basement walls and floor? If so, there are two main ways to deal with this: 1) Did a trench around the interior perimeter and install a footer french drain that drains into a sump with pump; 2) a simpler but less effective method is to install a plastic half-pipe along that seam that is glued to the walls and floor and also terminated at a sump with sump pump. If it truly is groundwater (do you know for sure that the water table is that high in your area?) then localized patches will never work because they will just send the water to another entry point.

---

"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan

1. Pile dirt against The house so that it slopes away from the house and leads water away from the house.
2. We have had good luck with our internal French drain and a sump pump. Also, are there any external drains like for a sub level stairwell, that might need to be cleared out?

Depending on your situation, you might be best served by a french drain - a channel is cut in the floor, next to the wall(s) (this is inside, not outside), drain tile placed in the channel and then routed to a sump pump (as mattkime mentioned), which the ejects the water out and away from the house.

Grading should be checked also.

we have a sump pump, exterior Fr drain on the "uphill" side of the house, and ss gutter guard screens. We also had stonework done a decade ago to redirect water coming in from the drive.
the stonework, pump and gutter screens do most of the heavy lifting.
The drain is there coz of how the property & foundation are laid out.
More preventative than "working".

But if you feel you have ground water coming in, do you know that you have a high water table?
If so, dunno how you can get by without some digging.
And as you said, water can be a sneaky bastid.

As others have said and we experienced, the sump pump did lots of work until the stone work was done. Of course you want the sump pump to have a path to it.

In my past experience in another house, inside work got me nowhere.

---

!#$@@$#!

proofraed by OwEn the c@t.

Quote
deckeda
Yes the house has working gutters that mostly aim water away from the house.

Elaborate on this. When was the last time anyone was up on the roof to check the gutters? It is early December. Autumn leaves are a pain. How many feet do your downspouts extend from the house? During the next major rain storm, go outside and do a slow walk around the perimeter of your home. Check for any "waterfalls" off the roofline due to clogs.

---

>During the next major rain storm, go outside and do a slow walk around the perimeter of your home. Check for any "waterfalls" off the roofline due to clogs.

Excellent advice. You have no idea what your gutters are doing until you look at them in the rain.

So now you're telling us that the water heater rusted from the outside inward.

I'll try to tackle a few comments here.

I'm not sold on the idea of a sump pump, because my understanding is that it is not answer to a leaking house. Is it not instead an answer to a known issue with a high water table?

do you have a dehumidifier in your basement? If not, you probably need one. Does your basement smell musty?

It's musty, yes, because there's water standing on the floor from coming in the walls There's no dehumidifier and I have no plans for one, ever. I live in a conditioned space, where sealing the envelope will obviate that need. Houses that "need" dehumidifiers have not been adequately sealed, yet curiously still use an HVAC ... these two circumstances are not compatible.

You haven't mentioned what the basement walls are constructed from. Poured concrete, sorry I thought I'd mentioned that.

1. Pile dirt against The house so that it slopes away from the house and leads water away from the house.

2. We have had good luck with our internal French drain and a sump pump. Also, are there any external drains like for a sub level stairwell, that might need to be cleared out?

The elevation is already level, slightly sloping away as far as I can tell. But mostly level. The basement has 2 drains and they both work.

you might be best served by a french drain

I wouldn't rule that out, however my assumption is that water can just as easily be coming from farther away of the house ... because the water is coming in lower. For all I know there could be underground gaps in the soil that no french drain above could address.

Elaborate on this.

The house was built featuring cast iron drains for gutters at several corners. Many decades ago, all of that of course became clogged/inoperable and all the drains were cemented over.

Fast forward, the house has modern aluminum gutters and no nearby trees to clog them. They work, however the downspouts exit water only a few feet away. I'd like to extend that in some fashion, possibly with french drains that offer a path away.

The only way I can do a live audit during rainfall is for it to happen on a weekend.

Quote
GGD
So now you're telling us that the water heater rusted from the outside inward.

Ironically, a smaller area of the basement (one corner) is bone dry. Water heater, laundry, furnace, circuit panels are all there. And yet that is not a "high ground area" necessarily.

Another vote for a sump pump.

---

Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.

Quote
deckeda
Houses that "need" dehumidifiers have not been adequately sealed

I was under the impression that we were discussing an older home.

Where are you located?

---

Couple more thoughts.

If the sump pump is on the uphill side of the house, it's probably missing most of the water, no? Doesn't the sump pump need to be on the low side of the house?

The french drains in our house are on the inside of the house, and run to the downhill corner of the house, where the sump pump is.

There are gutter downspout extensions that can run a number of feet away from the house. If you have downspouts in front, you could run them yards away to get water awy from the house.

Quote
mattkime

Quote
deckeda
Houses that "need" dehumidifiers have not been adequately sealed

I was under the impression that we were discussing an older home.

Where are you located?

Upper middle TN and yes the house is 80 years old, but old or new, humidity comes from the air unless you have a water leak. Seal off the air sneaking in and you eliminate humidity. That's why it's a complete waste of time and money to insulate a basement that isn't first sealed off from outside air intrusions.

I started that project a few years ago when my inlaws bought the house, by sealing the inoperable metal basement windows. I reglazed all the window panes and splooged Great Stuff around the window perimeters. There's currently a basement door that isn't even remotely sealed from the outside, but that's a project for another day ...

... One of these days I'll post pics or shoot a video to show you guys. The house has a cement tunnel under the back porch area from the basement to stairs that exit outside. Behind the house you see what looks like an entrance to what might be a little room, except it's stairs, then a 50-ft or whatever tunnel-of-doom, then another doorway into the basement. It's bizarre.

I keep trying to imagine the workflows and how they used the house when new! I think they washed clothes in the basement, then took laundry through the tunnel of doom to the backyard, which still has clothesline posts. That's a trek; the clotheslines are not next to the house. Supporting this theory is a small laundry shoot built into the closet inside the main floor bathroom. On nice days I'd like to use the clothesline ... but we have 4 dogs who will destroy the clothes if given the chance, because for some stupid reason it's better to have 4 dogs you can barely maintain than it is to attempt sane clothes drying. Don't get me started on how they've taken over what could otherwise be a perfect mud room in the back of the house.

A week or so ago when it was 20-degrees outside we learned this laundry shoot (basically an open hole into the basement) is an opportunity to suck cold air up from the basement into the main floor ... because the HVAC return vent is just down the hall on the main floor.

It might be neat to use the laundry shoot, however it's pretty damn small and larger things like towels might not even go down, and we need to make a door for it so that cold air stops getting sucked up.

Now consider that basement door that isn't sealed ... and by not sealed I mean the "door" doesn't fit the opening and the "gap" up top is actually about 10" by 3ft. BIRDS could fly in if they wanted to. I owed my sister a phone call about Xmas plans ... I told her, each day we think we have our first priority with what to fix, and then the next day there's a new priority.

I haven't even mentioned yet the outside brick wall that leaks, with ceiling partially removed in one 1st floor room with pans and buckets lining the wall to catch rainfall. It rained all week. That room, yeah, it's cold and humid of course. Meanwhile I'm looking at the wife and asking, how did your mom put up with all this? Did I mention each 2nd floor room has bird @#$%& on the floor, on window sills? WTF.

re: humidity
A few years ago I talked about the basement I was working on across town at another house, the one we just moved out of. That house was almost as old, but very different construction. I sealed the rim joists at the top of the basement wall, sealed up the basement vents to the outside ... and was able to eliminate the THREE dehumidifiers that were down there.

Take a guess what it costs to run a dehumidifier.

Quote
anonymouse1
Couple more thoughts.

If the sump pump is on the uphill side of the house, it's probably missing most of the water, no? Doesn't the sump pump need to be on the low side of the house?

The french drains in our house are on the inside of the house, and run to the downhill corner of the house, where the sump pump is.

There are gutter downspout extensions that can run a number of feet away from the house. If you have downspouts in front, you could run them yards away to get water awy from the house.

Yeah that's the thing with sumps ... I don't think they're intended to divert water, but rather a mitigation strategy against issues related to the water table ... not overt wall leaks from cracks. Yes all of that is related. If you've got a channel in your basement that's a form of "French drain," yes.

And I'll be looking at the outside downspouts also. There was one gutter off the back corner of the garage (garage is a separate structure, common to pre-war houses.) It didn't drain away and that corner washed out, sank and effed-up the brick wall when it settled. Today, the gutter has a custom exit going into a large container, because most everything my inlaws did was "custom." What they don't do it fix correctly.

Quote
deckeda
Upper middle TN and yes the house is 80 years old, but old or new, humidity comes from the air unless you have a water leak. Seal off the air sneaking in and you eliminate humidity. That's why it's a complete waste of time and money to insulate a basement that isn't first sealed off from outside air intrusions.

In a basement from that era, even with poured concrete, often a large source of humidity will be from water vapor traveling through the concrete itself. It is not just coming from the air infiltrating elsewhere. One way to tell if your concrete is porous to water vapor is to seal plastic to a section of dry appearing wall for a while. If condensation appears between the plastic and the wall, moisture is also coming in that way.

Properly done waterproofing on the outside of the foundation wall and under the slab will keep moisture from wicking through the concrete. But that was often not done at all decades ago, or not done correctly. There were concrete mixes that also would limit this, but they were not used often due to extra costs.

Fixing the air leaks and water leaks will lessen the problem of humidity in the basement, but not eliminate it.

Joe I don't disagree.

>I sealed the rim joists at the top of the basement wall, sealed up the basement vents to the outside ... and was able to eliminate the THREE dehumidifiers that were down there.

I'm interested to see your method of sealing up rim joists.

I guess I'm generally skeptical of the ability to seal up an old house. Maybe thats unwarranted. Maybe I'll know better once I insulate my rim joists. But of course air can leak in from the first floor too. At very least I doubt my wood floors are air tight, just looking at the gaps.

JoeH makes some excellent points about concrete permeability. I suspect I have a small amount of moisture coming through my basement walls, made visible by peeling paint. Its not bad, but its not something I'd build over without fixing.

I'm taking a belt and suspenders approach to this. It costs very little to run a dehumidifier when humidity is within the proper range - because its not running. Once you get that basement so the dehumidifier never runs, then you can take your victory lap.

---

Quote
deckeda
Elaborate on this.

The house was built featuring cast iron drains for gutters at several corners. Many decades ago, all of that of course became clogged/inoperable and all the drains were cemented over.

Fast forward, the house has modern aluminum gutters and no nearby trees to clog them. They work, however the downspouts exit water only a few feet away. I'd like to extend that in some fashion, possibly with french drains that offer a path away.

Well there's your problem right there! "A few feet away" is not sufficient if you have a basement. There's almost certainly granular material filling in adjacent to the basement walls which will be the path of least resistance for water being deposited only a few feet away. Also, you need to have your downspouts emptying into impermeable drain lines, NOT french drains, to take the water much further from the house. The purpose of a french drain is to collect groundwater present in the soil so that it can be sent elsewhere through solid (i.e. not perforated) pipes. A downspout should NEVER be directed into a french drain because then it simply becomes a method of injecting water into the soil.

---

"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2022 08:37PM by davester.

for water being deposited only a few feet away.

I hear you, and yet most houses do not drain gutters 20 ft away or whatever. They just don't.

I was able to stop almost all the water coming through the basement walls of this pre-1900 house by running extenders from every downspout underground to a popup valve well away from the foundation.

Patching leaks in the brick walls helped too. Seeing the setting sun through the wall under the window was a clue that I had a problem in that room and explains why guys clearing out the crawl space reported that mushrooms were growing under that window.

The day we closed on the house, we bought a bottle of champaign and sat on the front porch and celebrated. Then I drove to Lowes and bought a dehumidifier.

Someday I'll tell you about MY brick lined tunnel.

Quote
mattkime
>I sealed the rim joists at the top of the basement wall, sealed up the basement vents to the outside ... and was able to eliminate the THREE dehumidifiers that were down there.

I'm interested to see your method of sealing up rim joists.

I guess I'm generally skeptical of the ability to seal up an old house. Maybe thats unwarranted. Maybe I'll know better once I insulate my rim joists. But of course air can leak in from the first floor too. At very least I doubt my wood floors are air tight, just looking at the gaps.

JoeH makes some excellent points about concrete permeability. I suspect I have a small amount of moisture coming through my basement walls, made visible by peeling paint. Its not bad, but its not something I'd build over without fixing.

I'm taking a belt and suspenders approach to this. It costs very little to run a dehumidifier when humidity is within the proper range - because its not running. Once you get that basement so the dehumidifier never runs, then you can take your victory lap.

It's actually both sill plate and rim joist to consider, if they exist and are accessible. I'll see if I can dig up a picture, which may not apply to your house. But picture a standard cement block, it's open at the top, and the sill plate may or may not cover the holes.

Random internet picture (sorry it's huge) showing a sill plate that's way too narrow to cover the holes:



If for any reason something gets into the block, it can get in the basement unless that's patched. We had wasps in the basement that way, dunno how they got into the block. This was the previous house, not the one I'm in now with the poured wall. I did what I could to squirt Great Stuff there; the gaps were less than 2" in size.

Sealing the rim joists is a combination of hard foam and expanding foam, like so:

[www.youtube.com]

I took the same approach to sealing off the basement vents. With no HVAC they're OK for letting air swoosh through the basement. With HVAC present, you're pulling moist, hot air into the house during summer or pushing warm air out in winter. That's expensive; it's literally a hole in the side of the house and they're still made this way. It's dumb.

Notice that just shoving insulation in rim joists isn't effective. If the house was like where I was, pulling out the old fiberglass revealed bugs and huge gaps where air could come in. Seal, then put insulation back. I don't yet know if any of this is needed for where I am now. I don't actually know if it has modern rim joists/sill plates.

Quote
Don C
I was able to stop almost all the water coming through the basement walls of this pre-1900 house by running extenders from every downspout underground to a popup valve well away from the foundation.

Patching leaks in the brick walls helped too. Seeing the setting sun through the wall under the window was a clue that I had a problem in that room and explains why guys clearing out the crawl space reported that mushrooms were growing under that window.

The day we closed on the house, we bought a bottle of champaign and sat on the front porch and celebrated. Then I drove to Lowes and bought a dehumidifier.

Someday I'll tell you about MY brick lined tunnel.

Don I wanna hear about the popup valve thing and the tunnel!

But of course air can leak in from the first floor too. At very least I doubt my wood floors are air tight, just looking at the gaps.

I don't think you'd want floors to be "air tight," especially wood floors. They gotta breathe and move. There is sometimes discussion about sealing one level from another, but that's not what this is about and not really related. If you can heat your basement, the upstairs is helped a bunch unless not well insulated.

Most people won't do that, but we were in a position to run a smaller propane heater in the basement the last 2 years at the other place. The basement was always too warm, but the main floor was fine on all but the coldest days. And a warm wood floor is great. Our alternate was running the heat pump 24/7 and they aren't designed to run below about 45 degrees outside; that house doesn't have a furnace.

Quote
deckeda
Sealing the rim joists is a combination of hard foam and expanding foam, like so:

[www.youtube.com]

I had already planned this out although I've failed to take action. It will happen eventually.

---