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Last year's winner of the "worst project" award returns - printer spreads in InDesign
Posted by: M A V I C
Date: April 11, 2007 12:52PM
[forums.macresource.com]

That project is back. It got worse after the thread ended.

Now I have to do it again with a new design. Their design requirements are still the same - I have to provide printer spreads and they have to be in TIFF or EPS format.

Sure it's only 16 page, but it gets to be a real pain when there's changes after the files have been converted to TIFF and laid out in printer spreads. Plus I can foresee this being an annual project so I want to put it a format that I can reuse every year.

What's the best way to create printer spreads in InDesign CS2?




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Re: Last year's winner of the "worst project" award returns - printer spreads in InDesign
Posted by: spacescape
Date: April 11, 2007 01:12PM
My printer tried to "teach me" to do printer spreads. I told him that I was going to keep designing w/ layout spreads, mock up what the finished product needs to look like and THEY can do the printer spreads. I told them that they will handle this end of the job or I'll find a new printer. Lucky for me, it was the end of subject. I've been seeing more and more printers want PDF's which is ok by me. I just wish their pricing would get lower seeing they keep lowering their overhead by laying off all their preproduction people.

Bill
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Re: Last year's winner of the "worst project" award returns - printer spreads in InDesign
Posted by: bazookaman
Date: April 11, 2007 01:19PM
File>InBooklet SE. InDesign comes with InBooklet SE, a limited version of the defunct inBooklet that will create printer spreads. I've used it several times in the past.



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Re: Last year's winner of the "worst project" award returns - printer spreads in InDesign
Posted by: M A V I C
Date: April 11, 2007 01:30PM
This is the only printer I know of that requires printer spreads.

Quote
bazookaman
File>InBooklet SE. InDesign comes with InBooklet SE, a limited version of the defunct inBooklet that will create printer spreads. I've used it several times in the past.

Yeah, in my previous thread I noted that I tried that but for some reason it would not include some of the linked images.




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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/11/2007 01:31PM by M A V I C.
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Re: Last year's winner of the "worst project" award returns - printer spreads in InDesign
Posted by: bazookaman
Date: April 11, 2007 02:20PM
ah...sorry. I didn't look at the other thread.



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Re: Last year's winner of the "worst project" award returns - printer spreads in InDesign
Posted by: SLM
Date: April 11, 2007 02:58PM
Tiff or Eps... thats a big red flag right there.

Anyway, the only workaroundI can think of that would work for you would be to build the document as normal, save each page as an eps, create a second document in printer spreads and place the pages as images. Done this a few times with troublesome PDF's in Quark, quicker than setting up a Preps template.
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Re: Last year's winner of the "worst project" award returns - printer spreads in InDesign
Posted by: M A V I C
Date: April 11, 2007 03:04PM
Quote
SLM
Tiff or Eps... thats a big red flag right there.

Anyway, the only workaroundI can think of that would work for you would be to build the document as normal, save each page as an eps, create a second document in printer spreads and place the pages as images. Done this a few times with troublesome PDF's in Quark, quicker than setting up a Preps template.

That's exactly what I did last year. What's sad is their specs don't match what they actually need. So I did it to spec, and then they said "oh, you need to move this, that..." and it wasn't like they gave me measurements but just stuff like "a little bit. oh, too much, a little less." and each freaking time I had to go through the process of exporting as PDF, importing into PS and chopping it up.

I'm trying to find a solution that is more efficient. I'm currently talking to another printer to see if they can print something similar, without violating any of the patents the other company has.




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Re: Last year's winner of the "worst project" award returns - printer spreads in InDesign
Posted by: SLM
Date: April 11, 2007 04:13PM
That sounds crazy, if they have bleed requirements it should be a set value, the same with creep, ink density etc etc for any given press.

Don't understand why you would need to take a PDF into Photoshop, you basically should have one working document in ID, from that you create PDF that you use for your second imposition document, any changes would be made to the first document, then create an updated PDF and update that in the imposition and write the EPS spreads. No need for PS.

But it sounds like the printer/csr is jerking you about, get the specs in writing, do the job to those specs and submit it, if the printer complains then notify the customer that he will be charged for every little fix and that the onus is on him to get compensated from the printer... and that will be the last time he uses that PITA printer. FWIW, you won't be able to be more efficient until you get shot of the printer, the printer is an unknown quantity so to speak.
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Re: Last year's winner of the "worst project" award returns - printer spreads in InDesign
Posted by: M A V I C
Date: April 11, 2007 04:58PM
The client gets confused by the printer spreads. So my INDD doc is in reader spreads. That way we can proof it and such. I just send them a PDF and we're all good. With all of our other projects, they go to other printers which accept PDFs or INDD and we just send those files off.

I do have the specs in writing from these guys, and they specifically require printer spreads and they wont budge on it. They wont accept PDFs. Their spec says to make the documents the exact size of their spec, which doesn't account for bleed. I did that, and then they requested the files with bleed.

Since the design spans across pages, it's difficult to design it in printer spreads.

There's an area that gets cut, and they state that I have to keep the design 48pts from the top to account for it. I did that, and then they turned around and said no, it should be more like 72pts.

They also require that I create a mockup for them. That one really irritates me. The other printers I work with not only do the printer spreads, but they also have machines that automatically do the mockups and assemble them. I just sign off on it. I don't want to spend a couple hours of my time doing a mockup.




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Re: Last year's winner of the "worst project" award returns - printer spreads in InDesign
Posted by: SLM
Date: April 11, 2007 05:11PM
This isn't difficult stuff really. Like I said design in reader spreads, create single page pdfs, create a second document as printer spreads, once the single pages have been approved place the pdfs in the printer spread document and print.

Mocking up a 16 pager should take no more than 15 minutes, all you need is a lightbox, scalpel, stapler and a tin of spraymount. It should not take you hours.
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Re: Last year's winner of the "worst project" award returns - printer spreads in InDesign
Posted by: laarree
Date: April 11, 2007 05:49PM
My understanding of InDesign CS3 (coming up soon) is that you'll now be
able to place an INDD file in another layout, so conceivably, you can set
up a large INDD file with your printers' spreads as a template, place pages
from your readers' spreads INDD file in position as placed graphics, do revisions
on the source INDD file and it'll auto-update in the printers' spreads INDD file.
Then just export as EPS or whatever. That is, if you're inclined to update to CS3.




.................................................................................................
*We are just a quarantined people under an evil sun.*
--- Richard S. Shaver
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Re: Last year's winner of the "worst project" award returns - printer spreads in InDesign
Posted by: M A V I C
Date: April 11, 2007 05:56PM
Are you saying the second document would be an INDD?

Saving the approved reader spread PDFs and then placing them as printer spreads in another document is essentially what I have been doing. The difference is I've been doing it in Photoshop. The problems start occurring when they deviate from the spec and I have to adjust the files in ID and then export out the files and reassemble them. I just want a format where I can make changes and not have to change multiple documents and repeat a bunch of steps.

That's why I would like to do it all in one file in ID, and then just export it and be done.




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Re: Last year's winner of the "worst project" award returns - printer spreads in InDesign
Posted by: weapon
Date: April 11, 2007 06:09PM
why don't you take the project to another printer, pay there prepress to do the printer spreads and the mock up and then hand that to the jackasses that are not willing to do it themselves? My time is money and I pay my printer to do this stuff so I don't have to be bothered. I check proofs and then do the press check. Fullfilment is the printers job also.

If this were my job I would find a new printer or dump it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/11/2007 06:12PM by weapon.
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Re: Last year's winner of the "worst project" award returns - printer spreads in InDesign
Posted by: Big Daddy Cool
Date: April 11, 2007 06:10PM
The easy answer, and what seems to be the downfall of this entire job, is the printer.
Explain to the client how much time was wasted last year and that they are the only printer you know to require all this jumping through hoops. Any money they are saving with this printer they will end up paying you in extra time.
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Re: Last year's winner of the "worst project" award returns - printer spreads in InDesign
Posted by: laarree
Date: April 11, 2007 06:13PM
Yeah, INDD placed in INDD. Check it out, under the subhead "Placed InDesign files" : [www.adobe.com]

I've done many projects where this feature would have been useful, e.g. a catalog
which has needs to represent covers of other publications which are being
designed at the very same time. Would save the manual labor of creating revised
pdfs of the covers and relinking them in the catalog every time a cover changes.




.................................................................................................
*We are just a quarantined people under an evil sun.*
--- Richard S. Shaver
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Re: Last year's winner of the "worst project" award returns - printer spreads in InDesign
Posted by: weapon
Date: April 11, 2007 06:17PM
When did it become the job of the client to find the printer? The Designer chooses the printer based on price and quality not the client.

I would build in 20% upcharges on this client and make them pay either way.

Do you need this job that bad? If not, tell them that you will no longer work with their printer of choice. Do it now and they might not have time to find a qualified designer and you may break them.
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Re: Last year's winner of the "worst project" award returns - printer spreads in InDesign
Posted by: M A V I C
Date: April 11, 2007 07:00PM
Quote
laarree
Yeah, INDD placed in INDD. Check it out, under the subhead "Placed InDesign files" : [www.adobe.com]

I've done many projects where this feature would have been useful, e.g. a catalog
which has needs to represent covers of other publications which are being
designed at the very same time. Would save the manual labor of creating revised
pdfs of the covers and relinking them in the catalog every time a cover changes.

Ahhhh, that might be the ticket. Thanks!

I have already talked to my usual printer about doing this particular project. The problem is the piece is patented and slightly unusual. The client picked this printer because they are a vendor of specific supplies and they saw this piece and thought they could use something like it.

Last year the project dragged on and on and they said they weren't going to do it again. Now they want to, so I'm reminding them what a complete PITA it was last year.

The client is a good client, they just found this one piece they like and the printer is a pain. I'm on a retainer gig with them, get paid a flat fee every month regardless of how much they use me. I've worked with them for about seven years.

It's not worth getting fussy with the client about. And although I appreciate the ideas on how to deal with the client, I'm mainly looking for options on how to do this job better (eg laarree's suggestion) just in case I can't come up with a piece that's different enough that another printer can print it without patent infringements.

The client is very willing to work with me on anything we do. Together, we just won an award for the best design & marketing in their industry. They're also a lot of fun 99.9% of the time.




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Re: Last year's winner of the "worst project" award returns - printer spreads in InDesign
Posted by: Mike Sellers
Date: April 11, 2007 07:51PM
Here's a free ID imposition plugin: [www.rorohiko.com]

I haven't used it but it's supposed to be better than InBooklet.
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Re: Last year's winner of the "worst project" award returns - printer spreads in InDesign
Posted by: ArtP
Date: April 11, 2007 08:15PM
Quote
laarree
My understanding of InDesign CS3 (coming up soon) is that you'll now be
able to place an INDD file in another layout, so conceivably, you can set
up a large INDD file with your printers' spreads as a template, place pages
from your readers' spreads INDD file in position as placed graphics, do revisions
on the source INDD file and it'll auto-update in the printers' spreads INDD file.
Then just export as EPS or whatever. That is, if you're inclined to update to CS3.

Just saw this demoed last night.

ID CS3 supports ID documents inside of other ID documents so you can File>Place a ID document (just like a PDF or smart image) and can be edited right in ID (placed Doc), no more exporting to PDF or jumping to Photoshop. Also ID docs can be stored in the Bridge and used just like Images.

I am a ID Beginner but it seemed like a "big thing" to the Pros.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/11/2007 08:17PM by ArtP.
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Re: Last year's winner of the "worst project" award returns - printer spreads in InDesign
Posted by: M A V I C
Date: April 11, 2007 08:18PM
Quote
ArtP
Quote
laarree
My understanding of InDesign CS3 (coming up soon) is that you'll now be
able to place an INDD file in another layout, so conceivably, you can set
up a large INDD file with your printers' spreads as a template, place pages
from your readers' spreads INDD file in position as placed graphics, do revisions
on the source INDD file and it'll auto-update in the printers' spreads INDD file.
Then just export as EPS or whatever. That is, if you're inclined to update to CS3.

Just saw this demoed last night.

ID CS3 supports ID documents inside of other ID documents so you can File>Place a ID document (just like a PDF or smart image) and can be edited right in ID (placed Doc), no more exporting to PDF or jumping to Photoshop. Also ID docs can be stored in the Bridge and used just like Images.

I am a ID Beginner but it seemed like a "big thing" to the Pros.

Ack, if you hadn't quoted him, I would have missed that post. It showed up while I was replying sad smiley I thought he was talking about his last post.

Thanks Mike Sellers, I'll check that out.




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Re: Last year's winner of the "worst project" award returns - printer spreads in InDesign
Posted by: ArtP
Date: April 11, 2007 08:32PM
Not sure if you pros following this thread are aware of the Indesign User Group and the local chapters. The chapter in my area is fairly new (-Edit 6 meetings so far, about every 3 to 6 months) but a worthwhile way to spend an evening. Good for networking with other ID users:

[www.indesignusergroup.com]

Local Chapters: [www.indesignusergroup.com]

Membership is free (served cookies, pizza, juice, coffee) but you do have to pre register to attend the meetings. They gave away a copy of ID CS3 along with a bunch of O'Reilly Books and some T-shirts.

At the meeting last night we got a sneak peak at ID CS3. Lots of cool stuff was shown from the feature set posted in the link above.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/11/2007 08:40PM by ArtP.
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Re: Last year's winner of the "worst project" award returns - printer spreads in InDesign
Posted by: mediumcool
Date: April 12, 2007 07:35AM
If a designer/typesetter has to jump through hoops doing imposition because a client chose a printer who won't/can't do it (and who suggests bitmaps as an output file option!) then they should be able to recover costs of extra work from the client.

Must be a great client...
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Re: Last year's winner of the "worst project" award returns - printer spreads in InDesign
Posted by: smacks
Date: April 12, 2007 08:21AM
This thread is weirdly poignant - For the fist time in my career, I had a local printer tell me that it was OUR responsibilitiy to handle the pagination conversion to printer's spreads. I told the CSR to lump it, and sent their prepress department a linky to a $100 Quark plugin that will handle the pagination. Never heard back from them, and sent the job to a printer that didn't bitch about the reader's spreads...

Is this some kind of growing trend, or something?

J



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/12/2007 08:21AM by smacks.
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Re: Last year's winner of the "worst project" award returns - printer spreads in InDesign
Posted by: laarree
Date: April 12, 2007 12:19PM
Quote
smacks
This thread is weirdly poignant - For the fist time in my career, I had a local printer tell me that it was OUR responsibilitiy to handle the pagination conversion to printer's spreads. I told the CSR to lump it, and sent their prepress department a linky to a $100 Quark plugin that will handle the pagination. Never heard back from them, and sent the job to a printer that didn't bitch about the reader's spreads...
J

I've never had that request. The closest I ever have to do to printers spreads is
create INDD or Quark mechanicals with folds, flaps, pockets, diecuts, etc. for
multi-panel brochures/folders/covers. It's smart to do this inhouse anyway,
so you can create mockups and test that the construction of these doohickies
is correct. I did alot of packaging projects years ago, so this is a piece of cake.

My greatest frustration with printers is trying to pin them down about what they
recommend as far as color management practices, getting press ICC profiles from
them, etc. so we can do some inhouse rounds of photo proofing before releasing
jobs to them.




.................................................................................................
*We are just a quarantined people under an evil sun.*
--- Richard S. Shaver
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Re: Last year's winner of the "worst project" award returns - printer spreads in InDesign
Posted by: M A V I C
Date: April 12, 2007 12:40PM
Mike Seller's link turned out to do the trick. It's not a replacement for InBookletSE at all. Their site explains it clearly, though without trying it's not as apparent as it is when reading it:
The ImpositionCompanion Plug-In helps to overcome some limitations of InBooklet SE, which doesn't impose correctly when a document contains objects that overlap two or more pages.
The ImpositionCompanion Plug-In unlinks text threads and splits objects which overlap two or more pages. This allows the page order to be changed without problems.


Literally, all it does is unlink text threads and splits objects. Then you run InBookletSE and you can create files that InBookletSE would normally crap out on.

So I can now convert my INDD to printer spreads, to PDF and then to individual TIFFs all in three automated processes. Takes me a total of about three minutes.

Quote
mediumcool
If a designer/typesetter has to jump through hoops doing imposition because a client chose a printer who won't/can't do it (and who suggests bitmaps as an output file option!) then they should be able to recover costs of extra work from the client.

Must be a great client...

Yes, I would have no problem recovering the costs from the client. I just wanted to make sure that I had exhausted the other options. The plug-in Mike Sellers pointed out came out in September, several months after I last did this project.




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