[electrek.co]

Ford has announced that they will soon enable access for ALL Tesla charging locations and their vehicles will switch to using the Tesla NACS charging plug. This gives Ford access to 12k+ chargers making their EVs significantly more valuable, and viable.

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MacResource User Map: [www.zeemaps.com]#

Nice

I get a protectionist feeling from that, but then realize I've never used a supercharger. Good for EVs and good for Tesla, probably. Hopefully Tesla can build some more. We don't have near enough here.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2023 06:09PM by kj.

Elon needs $$$.

Nope, he’s got plenty already. Tesla’s charging network is a separate, for profit, business unit within Tesla. They see an opportunity to make money and they’re going for it.

This is an absolute game changer. Based on my experience with friends' and relatives' Teslas and other EVs, all EVs except Teslas are utterly useless for long distance travel because of the lack of reliable fast charge stations.

Hopefully all of the other makers will switch to the Tesla standard. Also, it's my understanding that the Tesla connector is an open standard so perhaps this will become a universal standard. The only down side that I see is that the Tesla supercharger stations will become overcrowded unless they accelerate building them, though that is likely to happen now that there are tax incentives for doing so.

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"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan

Tesla has been building Superchargers at a remarkable rest for the last 3 years. They are asserting "first mover" advantage, and have an over 99% uptime at the chargers.
[supercharge.info]
Tesla is leveraging solar and storage batteries to cut down their cost of electricity, giving a further advantage vs power utilities. They cannot fully generate the needed power, but hey can leverage the prices.

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all EVs except Teslas are utterly useless for long distance

Total BS.

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davester
This is an absolute game changer. Based on my experience with friends' and relatives' Teslas and other EVs, all EVs except Teslas are utterly useless for long distance travel because of the lack of reliable fast charge stations.

Absolutely true.

There are several brands of EVs that have fast DC charging, but coverage has been badly fumbled by the existing automotive press. Look for cars that use the SAE Combo (CCS1 in the US) and CHAdeMO charging ports. DC fast charging on the road is usually more expensive. Hopefully charging networks will merge and resolve these issues in the near future.

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In tha 360. MRF User Map

I think it's very much dependent on location. Here in the "northeast corridor" there are lots of options on the main highways. And all of them seem to be used when i pass by.

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Hurts like a bastid...

Fair enough. "wants", not needs.

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Carnos Jax
Nope, he’s got plenty already. Tesla’s charging network is a separate, for profit, business unit within Tesla. They see an opportunity to make money and they’re going for it.

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anonymouse1
Fair enough. "wants", not needs.

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Carnos Jax
Nope, he’s got plenty already. Tesla’s charging network is a separate, for profit, business unit within Tesla. They see an opportunity to make money and they’re going for it.

I think that's fair. Just to clarify though, Musk for the most part is not driven by money. It's a means to an end for him. Everything is geared to fund Mars.

Can we make a rule here? If you actually own an EV and have first hand knowledge of how well things work or don't work, then please, speak up.

But if you're just spouting off what you heard from your brother in law at Thanksgiving, who is repeating what he read on Yahoo, which is just pushing paid content FUD "articles" to create fear around EV ownership, please don't just repeat it like it is the ultimate truth.

EV owner coming up on 4 years now, all EV's that utilize the CCS Combo charge port. Let's state some real facts from my experience:

• I have never ever been stranded because I was unable to charge
• I have never had the experience to not find a CCS non-Tesla charger when I need it.
• I have occasionally run across a charger that is down. In almost every case, these are free chargers put in by CalTrans, and they have no interest in maintaining them.
• I do probably 90% of my charging at home, on a standard 110v outlet. My home energy bill has risen $20-50 because of that. Our hot tub uses far more energy.
• Our gas bill has dropped from $400 a month to about $100-150 a month for our other vehicles (not including when we use our camper van)

A huge amount of what you read online about negative experiences with EV's is FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) that is spread by the oil industry.

The charging industry is still in its infancy. The two largest non-Tesla provides, Electrify America and EVGo, began life not as a for profit company, but as a mitigation for car companies that did some shoddy environmental stuff and these companies are a part of that mitigation. It's going to take some time for more companies to jump in and start making the industry profitable. Both Shell and 7-11 are poised for rapid expansion in this area.

Can you imagine what it was like finding gasoline on cross country trips in the early years of automobiles?

Thank you for attending my TED talk.

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“Live your life, love your life, don’t regret…live, learn and move forward positively.” – CR Johnson
Loving life in Lake Tahoe, CA



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2023 08:31PM by Markintosh.

Great post Mark, thank you.

Can you imagine what it was like finding gasoline on cross country trips in the early years of automobiles?

You could always put a spare canister with a few gallons of gas in your trunk

are PHEV owners allowed to talk? I get around 500 400 MPG

EDIT: it's only 400, I actually looked it up.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2023 08:56PM by gadje.

Thanks for some reality, Mark.

Another point - how many actually need long distance charging options? AFAIK, most trips are within 50 miles of home. For the rare occasions (for most people) that an EV owner is taking a long trip, renting a gas or hybrid car exists as an option…

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gadje
are PHEV owners allowed to talk? I get around 500 400 MPG

EDIT: it's only 400, I actually looked it up.

I am dying to know what PHEV gets that sort of MPGe...because the best ratings I have seen run around 100 MPGe to 120 MPGe

Otherwise, yes. That said, PHEV owners already have some skepticism about living with an all EV car.

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“Live your life, love your life, don’t regret…live, learn and move forward positively.” – CR Johnson
Loving life in Lake Tahoe, CA

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Cary
Thanks for some reality, Mark.

Another point - how many actually need long distance charging options? AFAIK, most trips are within 50 miles of home. For the rare occasions (for most people) that an EV owner is taking a long trip, renting a gas or hybrid car exists as an option…

Yes, back when, I'd do almost all my driving as part of a commute. In this scenario, range or charging infrastructure would have never been a factor in my car buying decision. Even then, I took 2-3 road trips annually (Houston or Dallas). Would have been a relative non-issue in a Tesla. Worst case I would've rented a car, as the other 99% of the time the EV would come out far ahead in the economics and therefore dictate the car buying decision.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2023 09:15PM by Carnos Jax.

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Markintosh

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gadje
are PHEV owners allowed to talk? I get around 500 400 MPG

EDIT: it's only 400, I actually looked it up.

I am dying to know what PHEV gets that sort of MPGe...because the best ratings I have seen run around 100 MPGe to 120 MPGe

Otherwise, yes. That said, PHEV owners already have some skepticism about living with an all EV car.

Any PHEV, if you run on battery 99% of the time.

Edit: it’s not MPGe, I said MPG.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2023 10:18PM by gadje.

Gotcha Gadje.

Full BEV (battery electric) are rated in the 100-125 MPGe range, as that is the cost comparison of electricity cost versus gas cost. So even if you're not using gas, there is a cost for electricity.

That said our Ioniq 5 has two years of free charging.

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“Live your life, love your life, don’t regret…live, learn and move forward positively.” – CR Johnson
Loving life in Lake Tahoe, CA

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Can we make a rule here? If you actually own an EV and have first hand knowledge of how well things work or don't work, then please, speak up.

While I appreciate your frustrations, I learned long ago that people who have not done a particular activity are very able to understand the activity and make judgements about that activity. Was a meaningful life lesson for me.

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“There comes a point where we need to stop just pulling people out of the river. We need to go upstream and find out why they’re falling in."

Apparently not very often. I still talk to someone pretty much every day who thinks you have to charge an EV at a charging station. Almost everyone overestimates the number of miles they drive every day. Having an EV makes that a lot more clear. Almost no one realizes how easy it is to live with an EV until they have one. I've even talked to more people than I can count who thought EVs were severely underpowered. I talked to someone recently who told me it costs $60 to charge a Tesla. He was furious. Experience provides clarity that is unrivaled by other means (hearsay, reading with what appears to be a lack comprehension, etc.). It takes a lot of writing to explain things that are obvious with experience.

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gadje
Can you imagine what it was like finding gasoline on cross country trips in the early years of automobiles?

You could always put a spare canister with a few gallons of gas in your trunk

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It is what it is.

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kj
Apparently not very often. I still talk to someone pretty much every day who thinks you have to charge an EV at a charging station. Almost everyone overestimates the number of miles they drive every day. Having an EV makes that a lot more clear. Almost no one realizes how easy it is to live with an EV until they have one. I've even talked to more people than I can count who thought EVs were severely underpowered. I talked to someone recently who told me it costs $60 to charge a Tesla. He was furious. Experience provides clarity that is unrivaled by other means (hearsay, reading with what appears to be a lack comprehension, etc.). It takes a lot of writing to explain things that are obvious with experience.

That's perfectly fine. You don't want everyone switching from ICE to EV all at once, that would not be sustainable. The transition is actually faster than our expectations, and it seems to accelerate.

Another EV user here- in the DC area.

I've had my Tesla Model 3 for 4.5 years. Great car, solid, charging at home is a breeze.
I've had my BMW i4 for 6 months. Great car, solid, charging at home is a breeze.

I charge 1-2 times per week at home.
For long trips, we still have an ICE car that we use.

That being said, I have taken the Tesla on several 500 mile trips, and never had any problems. I haven't had the opportunity to take the i4 yet on a trip-- I have some trepidation because I know non-tesla chargers have a higher rate of being down, but I wouldn't hesitate to take a trip up the East Coast at all.

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Markintosh
Can we make a rule here? If you actually own an EV and have first hand knowledge of how well things work or don't work, then please, speak up.

I have had a Genesis GV-60 for about eight months.

I have had a Lucid Air for about two months. When I got it I sold my wife's ICE car. We still have one ICE car that my daughter drives.

Only long-distance driving in that time is a 400 mile round trip to fetch/drop-off daughter at college.

For that trip, I pass one EA station (both cars came with three years free EA charging). Last trip, I only needed to charge once.

I have a 48 amp L2 charger in my garage for everything else. Need to charge each car about once a week.

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kj
I still talk to someone pretty much every day who thinks you have to charge an EV at a charging station.

There are also EV owners who are not "smart" about charging.

My cars will charge very quickly from 10-80% (under 20 minutes). You drive a couple hundred miles and stop for a quick charge, then drive a couple hundred more. Yet many will charge to 100%. This takes much longer since charging slows considerably after 80%.

So, if an EV owner is telling you they spend an hour charging and hate it, then they are probably doing it wrong.

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kj
I get a protectionist feeling from that, but then realize I've never used a supercharger. Good for EVs and good for Tesla, probably. Hopefully Tesla can build some more. We don't have near enough here.

Super chargers and Other DC fast chargers are really only intended for highway travel. You don’t need that many of them. Most people should charge at home, at malls, at restaurants, etc. Chargers will become pervasive. Don’t think of them as electric gas stations. They don’t need to be located in a specific lot. They can be in an existing parking lot and you charge while you get groceries, eat lunch etc.

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MacResource User Map: [www.zeemaps.com]#

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August West
. I learned long ago that people who have not done a particular activity are very able to understand the activity and make judgements about that activity. Was a meaningful life lesson for me.

Simplistically put; I can’t play a violin, but I know when one’s being played off key.

I’m at just about 375MPG on my Volt. It’d be higher but I’m forced to burn some gas every 90days.

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MacResource User Map: [www.zeemaps.com]#

Most of us were around at the dawn of the Internet revolution, and then the smart phone revolution. Now we get to be around for the dawn of the EV one. What exciting times, and how lucky we are to experience both!

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Carnos Jax
Most of us were around at the dawn of the Internet revolution, and then the smart phone revolution. Now we get to be around for the dawn of the EV one. What exciting times, and how lucky we are to experience both!

I'm with you on the Internet and EV; the smart phone thing will prove a real downward turn in evolution, imo.

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Hurts like a bastid...

Yeah it could unfortunately, hopefully not.

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gadje

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kj
Apparently not very often. I still talk to someone pretty much every day who thinks you have to charge an EV at a charging station. Almost everyone overestimates the number of miles they drive every day. Having an EV makes that a lot more clear. Almost no one realizes how easy it is to live with an EV until they have one. I've even talked to more people than I can count who thought EVs were severely underpowered. I talked to someone recently who told me it costs $60 to charge a Tesla. He was furious. Experience provides clarity that is unrivaled by other means (hearsay, reading with what appears to be a lack comprehension, etc.). It takes a lot of writing to explain things that are obvious with experience.

That's perfectly fine. You don't want everyone switching from ICE to EV all at once, that would not be sustainable. The transition is actually faster than our expectations, and it seems to accelerate.

I suppose so. It may kid of prolong the "golden age" of owning one, which I think it is right now, at least in some ways.

"There are also EV owners who are not "smart" about charging.

My cars will charge very quickly from 10-80% (under 20 minutes). You drive a couple hundred miles and stop for a quick charge, then drive a couple hundred more. Yet many will charge to 100%. This takes much longer since charging slows considerably after 80%.

So, if an EV owner is telling you they spend an hour charging and hate it, then they are probably doing it wrong."

That's very true.

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ztirffritz

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kj
I get a protectionist feeling from that, but then realize I've never used a supercharger. Good for EVs and good for Tesla, probably. Hopefully Tesla can build some more. We don't have near enough here.

Super chargers and Other DC fast chargers are really only intended for highway travel. You don’t need that many of them. Most people should charge at home, at malls, at restaurants, etc. Chargers will become pervasive. Don’t think of them as electric gas stations. They don’t need to be located in a specific lot. They can be in an existing parking lot and you charge while you get groceries, eat lunch etc.

I think we've only got one on the whole section of the I-80 that goes through southern Idaho, and it is right down the street from me, so it does no good at all for me or anyone who lives in Boise. I'm not sure how one would go north-south in Idaho. We need more! We tested going to McCall and back, and it was no problem on one charge, thankfully. But we're still apprehensive about Sun Valley, as there's nothing in between, which means we would pretty much have to make sure we could charge where we stay there (iffy). A supercharger in Mt. Home might be really helpful. I see a billion Teslas going to Salt Lake City, so there must be a way to do that fairly easily, but I'm not sure what they're doing.

edit: not to mention Boise-Reno.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/2023 11:27AM by kj.

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Markintosh
Can we make a rule here? If you actually own an EV and have first hand knowledge of how well things work or don't work, then please, speak up.

But if you're just spouting off what you heard from your brother in law at Thanksgiving, who is repeating what he read on Yahoo, which is just pushing paid content FUD "articles" to create fear around EV ownership, please don't just repeat it like it is the ultimate truth.

Well, I'm not an EV owner yet, but I hope to be soon and my experience is in between those two end members. I have gone on numerous long trips (ski trips, camping, etc) with a close friend with a Tesla Model X and have experienced how great the supercharger network is. I also have experience with my brother's Leaf and another close friend's Chevy Bolt. Those guys mostly do only short trips but the Bolt recently did a long trip from San Francisco to Seattle. It was supposed to be a two day trip but turned into four days because so many chargers on the route were inoperable. I've been reading in various EV blogs that this is a common occurrence so it gives me pause with the idea of buying a non-Tesla EV (which I would want to use for long road trips). This is why I say that non-Teslas are not currently useful for long trips. For this reason, the availability of a widespread and reliable charging network is a big factor for me. I hope this issue gets resolved soon, either by other manufacturers adopting the Tesla standard or by Tesla accelerating the rollout of universal adapters for their supercharger stations.

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"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan

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davester
I also have experience with my brother's Leaf and another close friend's Chevy Bolt. Those guys mostly do only short trips but the Bolt recently did a long trip from San Francisco to Seattle. It was supposed to be a two day trip but turned into four days because so many chargers on the route were inoperable. I've been reading in various EV blogs that this is a common occurrence so it gives me pause with the idea of buying a non-Tesla EV (which I would want to use for long road trips). This is why I say that non-Teslas are not currently useful for long trips.

Yes, I hear this CONSISTENTLY from users out in the field.

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Carnos Jax

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davester
I also have experience with my brother's Leaf and another close friend's Chevy Bolt. Those guys mostly do only short trips but the Bolt recently did a long trip from San Francisco to Seattle. It was supposed to be a two day trip but turned into four days because so many chargers on the route were inoperable. I've been reading in various EV blogs that this is a common occurrence so it gives me pause with the idea of buying a non-Tesla EV (which I would want to use for long road trips). This is why I say that non-Teslas are not currently useful for long trips.

Yes, I hear this CONSISTENTLY from users out in the field.

I am in the process of researching an EV purchase and have also encountered a LOT of accounts of this exact experience from non-Tesla owners. I've also ready a number of articles by journalists who thought the experience of taking an extended road trip in a non-Tesla EV would make for a good story and who ended up experiencing the same frustrations.

For anybody who's interested, I've decided upon the Tesla Model Y LR and hope to purchase within the next couple of weeks. Very excited!

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It is what it is.

If your car uses gasoline, the world is already your oyster. Snag a new Prius, 57mpg, fuel stations everywhere, no waiting, no stress.

When people say, "hey, it's no stress," it's because they've totally changed how they use a car. They've built their lives around the limitations of the car. Your next car will be able to take advantage of much better batteries and charging.

Right now, charging stations and batteries are at this stage:

Not if you charge at home, in which case it’s more advanced and convenient than any modern gas station. For many charging isn’t an issue. For those they wonder how anyone could have lived with a gas car.

My wife’s PHEV gets gassed up once a year. vision63, that pump would be fine although I would have to operate it because she has forgotten how to pump gas because I’ve been filling that one tank/year for the last seven years (until just this year.)

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Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.

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Carnos Jax
Not if you charge at home, in which case it’s more advanced and convenient than any modern gas station. For many charging isn’t an issue. For those they wonder how anyone could have lived with a gas car.

Right. Works well for people that don't really use their car much. When I had my Bolt, I never stopped worrying. My buddy bought a Model 3 that he's extremely happy with.

I helped him buy it in California (he paid for it, I found it). Instead of driving it to Houston, he had it shipped. I almost took some time off the drive it myself, because shipping it is pu**y, when you don't have to. Now he's moved to South Pasadena (had the car shipped). He still loves his car and gladly drives it around. I'm happy he's back in his home area after 30 years of being away.

I came down to L.A. for the weekend and he wanted to hang out. I have a house near Gardena in L.A. It's nothing for me to go to South Pasadena, but he's more hesitant than I am to come to me. You can imagine the 110 freeway is unpredictable. Both our fathers' graves are in Riverside's National Cemetery. We went to go visit. Who drives out there, me or him?

Of course I do. Hella traffic, went to Portillo's in Moreno Valley for grub, came back to L.A. went to Redondo Beach to go out on the pier where we used to fish. Then I took him back to So Pas.

I told him next time I come back, you have to put that phuker on the road. That's what a car is for. To drive anywhere you want, anytime you want. I want to be the passenger.

We know it'll the right time when every car uses the exact same charger connections and charging takes 5 minutes. I know it's coming.

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kj
I think we've only got one on the whole section of the I-80 that goes through southern Idaho.

Did you mean I-84 or perhaps I-86?? "I-80" doesn't go into Idaho.

[en.wikipedia.org]

"The highway [I-84] originally served as a fork of I-80 to serve the Pacific Northwest, and was originally numbered Interstate 80N.... The highway was signed with the I-84 designation in 1980..."

This is great for Ford EVs considering how many non-Tesla Level 3 chargers are broken or simply don't work when you roll up to them.

Level 2 chargers are nowhere near ubiquitous, however.

I will be mostly charging at home whenever I buy an EV but that will take upgrading my current electric panel by at least 100A.

And having a new 240VAC circuit pulled from the breaker box on the back of my place, up into the attic, across the attic to the front, then down to the ground where it will then go through buried conduit up to the edge of the sidewalk where I'll have dual-240VAC outlets mounted on a pole.

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Carnos Jax

Yes, I hear this CONSISTENTLY from users out in the field.

You hear this consistently because the Internet is a place for complaining. People are quick to report on the internet that they had a bad day because a charger was down, or they had to wait in line.

Very few people take the time to post "I just charged successfully for the 34th time in a row!"

This is confirmation bias at its worst. We have a bad experience, so we go look at the internet to make sure everyone knows it and we see "Hey that guy had it happen too!"

This is why I am an EV cheerleader, on this site and elsewhere.

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“Live your life, love your life, don’t regret…live, learn and move forward positively.” – CR Johnson
Loving life in Lake Tahoe, CA

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kj
edit: not to mention Boise-Reno.

Salt Lake City to Sun Valley:
[www.tesla.com]

Boise to Reno:
[www.tesla.com]

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MacResource User Map: [www.zeemaps.com]#

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Markintosh

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Carnos Jax

Yes, I hear this CONSISTENTLY from users out in the field.

You hear this consistently because the Internet is a place for complaining. People are quick to report on the internet that they had a bad day because a charger was down, or they had to wait in line.

Very few people take the time to post "I just charged successfully for the 34th time in a row!"

This is confirmation bias at its worst. We have a bad experience, so we go look at the internet to make sure everyone knows it and we see "Hey that guy had it happen too!"

This is why I am an EV cheerleader, on this site and elsewhere.

I’m specifically referring to the non-Tesla chargers, mostly, the ones Volkswagen was involved with. These are not just one offs, but rather entire road trips, made unusable or severely inconvenienced because of it.

Obviously this varies with where you are and CA is pretty well covered...but the point is, here are Electrify America station statuses via PlugShare. Statewide there is one wrench (indicating under repair), and four grey ones that are "coming soon". Electrify America (VW sponsored) has come a long way in the last two years. You're looking at about 98% of stations "up" as of today.

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“Live your life, love your life, don’t regret…live, learn and move forward positively.” – CR Johnson
Loving life in Lake Tahoe, CA