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How to handle "Saltpocalypse" ?
Posted by: PeterB
Date: September 30, 2023 12:27PM
For those who don't know or who haven't heard, we're expected to have a "saltpocalypse" down here, likely beginning mid-late October, possibly lasting three months ... essentially a backflow of saltwater into the Mississippi because of the drought in the Ohio river valley area.

[www.axios.com]
[www.cnbc.com]

... the drinking water will probably be OK, or if not, then we can have bottled water, but... the real concern is the salt getting into pipes and causing corrosion and leaching of chemicals into the water. I've been looking into whole house RO systems, but they are super-expensive.

FYI, this isn't the first time it happened... the last time was in 1988, but only lasted a week or so.




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Re: How to handle "Saltpocalypse" ?
Posted by: gadje
Date: September 30, 2023 12:43PM
move to higher grounds?
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Re: How to handle "Saltpocalypse" ?
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: September 30, 2023 01:30PM




_____________________________________

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Re: How to handle "Saltpocalypse" ?
Posted by: PeterB
Date: September 30, 2023 02:22PM
Quote
gadje
move to higher grounds?

Thank you for that oh-so-useful suggestion, and for taking something seriously that has been already declared as a national emergency.




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Re: How to handle "Saltpocalypse" ?
Posted by: RgrF
Date: September 30, 2023 02:42PM
Read about that last week. This one has already effected a number of lower delta sites and, as I recall, they expect it to move further north than last time.
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Re: How to handle "Saltpocalypse" ?
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: September 30, 2023 05:53PM
yum smiley



Hurts like a bastid...
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Re: How to handle "Saltpocalypse" ?
Posted by: raz
Date: September 30, 2023 05:54PM
Short term ? No idea. If the pipes corrode they’ll leech lead into the water.

Longer term ? A climate change discussion which would get this moved to the other side



--------------

Embarassing myself on the Internet since 1978.
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Re: How to handle "Saltpocalypse" ?
Posted by: RgrF
Date: September 30, 2023 06:03PM
The amount of subject matter this side cant tolerate is disturbing, it's not a kids forum.
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Re: How to handle "Saltpocalypse" ?
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: September 30, 2023 07:47PM
I would note that Long Island has been dealing with this for decades.
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Re: How to handle "Saltpocalypse" ?
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: October 01, 2023 12:42AM
Quote
PeterB
Quote
gadje
move to higher grounds?

Thank you for that oh-so-useful suggestion, and for taking something seriously that has been already declared as a national emergency.

Although said in jest I'm sure, there's truth to recognizing the natural world and how we have artificially imposed our living standards. It was far easier to move from problems when we didn't build permanent structures, but the climate doesn't care if we do.



Hurts like a bastid...
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Re: How to handle "Saltpocalypse" ?
Posted by: gadje
Date: October 01, 2023 09:44AM
it was half jest, half serious. I can't understand those who build NEW settlements in low areas prone to floods, or who MOVE into existing settlements into such areas.

I realize you lived there for many years, so there is no easy solution to your problem. All I can say is "good luck and I hope it's not too bad". I know this also DOES NOT HELP.

So how about that whole house RO system? isn't that orders of magnitude cheaper than moving to higher grounds? Maybe bite the bullet and do it.
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Re: How to handle "Saltpocalypse" ?
Posted by: Tiangou
Date: October 01, 2023 11:04AM
[us.watergen.com]



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Re: How to handle "Saltpocalypse" ?
Posted by: PeterB
Date: October 01, 2023 10:30PM
Quote
Tiangou
[us.watergen.com]

Interesting, but way expensive ($2-3K) ... and doesn't really solve the problem of saltwater getting into the house's pipes.

Also, I kinda wonder if it isn't really just a glorified / very sophisticated version of a dehumidifier + water purifier.

Quote
gadje
it was half jest, half serious. I can't understand those who build NEW settlements in low areas prone to floods, or who MOVE into existing settlements into such areas.

I realize you lived there for many years, so there is no easy solution to your problem. All I can say is "good luck and I hope it's not too bad". I know this also DOES NOT HELP.

So how about that whole house RO system? isn't that orders of magnitude cheaper than moving to higher grounds? Maybe bite the bullet and do it.

It's really not an option for me to move at this point. One can argue that we should just let New Orleans sink into the ocean, but if we're going to argue that, then how about Florida? Or NYC? Or any of a number of other places that face environmental problems, just let them get wiped off the map?

As for the whole house RO system, these typically run $5-10K. That's a pretty hefty chunk of change...




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Re: How to handle "Saltpocalypse" ?
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: October 02, 2023 10:44AM
If you think you can survive on the bottled water distribution that *should* be set up for the emergency, turn off water at the utility valve as soon as you know the salt is in the local water utility system.

It's a tradeoff on cost. Pay for someone to install a RO system on your supply line, or pay for a re-pipe after it hits. There is a chance that you will be able to deduct it off taxes, or get it paid for through FEMA or similar.

I can think of another alternative (hire a cistern and water pump system), but it is likely massively inconvenient, and/or expensive.



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Re: How to handle "Saltpocalypse" ?
Posted by: PeterB
Date: October 02, 2023 01:53PM
Quote
Filliam H. Muffman
If you think you can survive on the bottled water distribution that *should* be set up for the emergency, turn off water at the utility valve as soon as you know the salt is in the local water utility system.

It's a tradeoff on cost. Pay for someone to install a RO system on your supply line, or pay for a re-pipe after it hits. There is a chance that you will be able to deduct it off taxes, or get it paid for through FEMA or similar.

I can think of another alternative (hire a cistern and water pump system), but it is likely massively inconvenient, and/or expensive.

Drinking bottled water is fine, but turning off the water valve isn't an option, since you still have to wash clothes, run a dishwasher, etc. Installing an RO system on the supply line is very expensive as I'd mentioned. (At least $5-10K, from what I can tell, and also apparently RO systems waste a LOT of water, which means water bills will be through the roof.) Repiping after it hits-- this may be how a lot of people go, though there's no guarantee that FEMA will cover it.

FYI, there has already been a fairly massive run on bottled water down here, despite local officials saying NOT to panic buy. It is true that people are stupid, and seemingly don't understand that you could be stocking up on tap water now, rather than buying up all the bottled water.

Something else that I'm now looking into: rather than a whole-house RO system, it might be good enough to have a whole-house carbon filtration system, since the main concern is the lead and other heavy metals getting into the pipes. Something like this maybe?: [radiantlifecatalog.com]




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Re: How to handle "Saltpocalypse" ?
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: October 02, 2023 02:47PM
Unless it's near RO level filtration, it won't remove dissolved lead. Another problem is this won't stop corrosion between the water filter and the faucet without some sort of conditioning. My impression is dissolved lead is usually the vector that people have to worry about. Removing particles would reduce the initial spike(s) of exposure, but would not come close to eliminating long term issues. A swing in pH and the high conductivity from salt water tends to strip off the 'protective' layer of compounds on the inside of pipes.

My impression is that it takes several years to reform the layer again. This is based on the Flint water crisis, which had high lead levels continue for at least 4 years. Pipe replacement was the thing that seems to have mostly ended it. There are still dozens of homes that have known or high likelihood of dangerous pipes.
https: //www.flintpipemap.org/map

Many years ago I worked in a lab with a relatively inexpensive ion removal system, but it was posted to not drink the water even though the input was from a 'drinking water' service. I would estimate it was $500, with $40 monthly consumables for 50 gpd with TDS below... 6(?). Good enough for everything we did, except for 800# steam condensate testing. I don't remember the manufacturer and have continued to wonder about residential applications.



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Re: How to handle "Saltpocalypse" ?
Posted by: PeterB
Date: October 02, 2023 05:15PM
Quote
Filliam H. Muffman
Unless it's near RO level filtration, it won't remove dissolved lead. Another problem is this won't stop corrosion between the water filter and the faucet without some sort of conditioning. My impression is dissolved lead is usually the vector that people have to worry about. Removing particles would reduce the initial spike(s) of exposure, but would not come close to eliminating long term issues. A swing in pH and the high conductivity from salt water tends to strip off the 'protective' layer of compounds on the inside of pipes.

My impression is that it takes several years to reform the layer again. This is based on the Flint water crisis, which had high lead levels continue for at least 4 years. Pipe replacement was the thing that seems to have mostly ended it. There are still dozens of homes that have known or high likelihood of dangerous pipes.
https: //www.flintpipemap.org/map

Many years ago I worked in a lab with a relatively inexpensive ion removal system, but it was posted to not drink the water even though the input was from a 'drinking water' service. I would estimate it was $500, with $40 monthly consumables for 50 gpd with TDS below... 6(?). Good enough for everything we did, except for 800# steam condensate testing. I don't remember the manufacturer and have continued to wonder about residential applications.

One problem I've seen with whole house RO systems is that apparently they just can't produce the kind of output or water pressure you need for routine tasks...

And as for removing lead -- so your argument is that all the companies that advertise lead removal through filtration (usually carbon filtration) are lying?

Replacing the pipes here is likely to be a massive infrastructure project ... replacing an individual house's pipes is one thing, but the city has likely miles and miles of lead pipes.

Ion removal systems -- maybe you're thinking of something like this, that again claims to remove heavy metals: [crystalquest.com]




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Re: How to handle "Saltpocalypse" ?
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: October 02, 2023 06:44PM
Quote
PeterB
Ion removal systems -- maybe you're thinking of something like this, that again claims to remove heavy metals: [crystalquest.com]

It doesn't say remove, it says reduces. Also doesn't guarantee removal of minerals/metals down to a specific level. It could be that a filter with multiple types of resin beds can remove other metal ions and lead down to less than 8 ppd, but it would need a guaranteed method of warning the user when to replace/regenerate the system when the adsorbtion capacity is used up.

ZeroWater supplies a tester to check when their filter is used up, but they state it does not work to test for Pb.

The system I used in the lab had an electrical power supply hooked up to the second of two half liter sized cartridges. I assumed the first was a filter(s). I am pretty sure the second had something like the zinc anode (or Mg?) in a water heater and added an electrical charge to force ions out of solution, then a resin bed designed to capture the sacrificial metal.

It was NOT like the snakeoil electrical/magnet powered water 'descaler' units in the big box stores.



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Re: How to handle "Saltpocalypse" ?
Posted by: PeterB
Date: October 02, 2023 06:59PM
Quote
Filliam H. Muffman
Quote
PeterB
Ion removal systems -- maybe you're thinking of something like this, that again claims to remove heavy metals: [crystalquest.com]

It doesn't say remove, it says reduces. Also doesn't guarantee removal of minerals/metals down to a specific level. It could be that a filter with multiple types of resin beds can remove other metal ions and lead down to less than 8 ppd, but it would need a guaranteed method of warning the user when to replace/regenerate the system when the adsorbtion capacity is used up.

ZeroWater supplies a tester to check when their filter is used up, but they state it does not work to test for Pb.

The system I used in the lab had an electrical power supply hooked up to the second of two half liter sized cartridges. I assumed the first was a filter(s). I am pretty sure the second had something like the zinc anode (or Mg?) in a water heater and added an electrical charge to force ions out of solution, then a resin bed designed to capture the sacrificial metal.

It was NOT like the snakeoil electrical/magnet powered water 'descaler' units in the big box stores.

While it's true that no level of lead is considered safe in water, it is a matter of getting it down to as low as possible... I wouldn't expect ANY system to completely remove, and would assume that you'll have to periodically test. (I've tested my water now, and it's undetectable or nearly undetectable for lead.)

If you have a specific suggestion of a system to look at, let me know. I'm also seeing much cheaper whole house systems like this one: [www.expresswater.com]




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Re: How to handle "Saltpocalypse" ?
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: October 02, 2023 07:13PM
I wish I had one to recommend.

Five years ago I was close to ordering a high capacity whole house RO system that was ~$2,200 at Home Depot, but having licensed plumber suffer in my crawlspace and cut the slab to run the pipes was going to double the cost. Currently my stomach/chest is about 1/2" too big to fit in that corner under the house.



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Re: How to handle "Saltpocalypse" ?
Posted by: PeterB
Date: October 02, 2023 09:40PM
Quote
Filliam H. Muffman
I wish I had one to recommend.

Five years ago I was close to ordering a high capacity whole house RO system that was ~$2,200 at Home Depot, but having licensed plumber suffer in my crawlspace and cut the slab to run the pipes was going to double the cost. Currently my stomach/chest is about 1/2" too big to fit in that corner under the house.

Considering that some of the whole house systems I'm seeing (not RO) are around $500, even if it doesn't remove 100% of the lead and iron, it may still be worth considering. Though I realize that the downside is the frequent filter changes, which could end up adding up quickly...




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Re: How to handle "Saltpocalypse" ?
Posted by: Speedy
Date: October 02, 2023 10:09PM
An article with a map showing the predicted advance:

[www.nytimes.com]



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Re: How to handle "Saltpocalypse" ?
Posted by: PeterB
Date: October 02, 2023 10:48PM
Quote
Speedy
An article with a map showing the predicted advance:

[www.nytimes.com]

Thanks, but already knew about this ... expected to hit most of the city in late October, assuming no other changes.




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