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Diameter is not circumference.
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: November 28, 2023 05:55AM
How is it that so many people/sites don't know this: diameter is not circumference.

I'm ordering a pie pan from AMZ and found pans listed as the same size were varied some in stated size.

This was bases on where the diameter was measured.

Checking a few baking sites to find the standard way to measure a tin (there is none) I found several sites that had a sentence almost identical to:

The width describes the circumference of a pie pan and serves as a measure of its size.

Huh?

Then they proceed to say "measure from one side to the other" or "across" or similar.

Pro Tip: Circles don't have sides.

Full disclosure: I am not a baker by any means, though I have baked a few pies, but in eons of pie consuming, I've never seen a pie listing circumference as it's dimension.

I'd like a 28" pie, please.

It's like all these people with web logs are not professional bakers and maybe slept through math class.

Or they write for somebody and have to meet a word count or get paid by the word.

Under how to measure, some never even tell you how to measure.

I check with ANSI, SAE, DIN, and a few others and didn't find a standard, just sites saying a 9" tin is the most common, so I suppose it's a de facto standard.

The question of where the diameter measurement is taken remains, so I've opted for the inside diameter measured from the upper edge of the pan.

It was really an exercise in curiosity, but not getting diameter and circumference right really bugged me.






I am that Masked Man.

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Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

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by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

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And hope is a lousy defense.

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Re: Diameter is not circumference.
Posted by: gadje
Date: November 28, 2023 06:16AM
I run into this when I buy my XXXXL condoms all the time.
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Re: Diameter is not circumference.
Posted by: Grateful11
Date: November 28, 2023 06:17AM
smiley-laughing001
I'm a retired Journeyman Machinist so it just comes natural to me. It should be basic knowledge IMO.

Maybe they need a Pi Tape. smiley-laughing001




Grateful11
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Re: Diameter is not circumference.
Posted by: Tiangou
Date: November 28, 2023 06:24AM
Quote
RAMd®d
Pro Tip: Circles don't have sides.

Depends on how you wanna do the math.

[en.wikipedia.org]



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Re: Diameter is not circumference.
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: November 28, 2023 06:29AM
....that's what she said.....!!!!



_____________________________________

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
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Re: Diameter is not circumference.
Posted by: Michael
Date: November 28, 2023 07:02AM
Duolingo just started a math course (for free if you want to put up with the ads!). I'd bet they'll have diameter/circumference module somewhere along the way.
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Re: Diameter is not circumference.
Posted by: Bernie
Date: November 28, 2023 07:09AM
All this MATH could get this post moved to the other side.
smiley-laughing001




Staunton, Virginia
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Re: Diameter is not circumference.
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: November 28, 2023 07:42AM
Quote
RAMd®d
Pro Tip: Circles don't have sides.

Sure they do.
- As you’re looking at it ,there’s a left and right side.
- If we’re splitting a pizza, there’s your side and my side.
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Re: Diameter is not circumference.
Posted by: macphanatic
Date: November 28, 2023 07:47AM
Circles have sides, inside and outside. smiley-laughing001

It's going to get worse. I don't know if it's our education system or people in general, but the increase in the lack of knowledge is unbelievable.
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Re: Diameter is not circumference.
Posted by: TheTominator
Date: November 28, 2023 07:51AM
Quote
RAMd®d
Pro Tip: Circles don't have sides.

Stopping for a rest break, a federal marshal transporting a prisoner in the old west uses a stick and draws a wide circle in the dirt.
The marshal says, "If you step outside that circle, I'll put a bullet in you."

I think it's understood that circles have sides: inside and outside.
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Re: Diameter is not circumference.
Posted by: Lux Interior
Date: November 28, 2023 07:52AM
Circle gets the square!
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Re: Diameter is not circumference.
Posted by: mattkime
Date: November 28, 2023 08:07AM
Circle diameter should always measured from the north side



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Re: Diameter is not circumference.
Posted by: gabester
Date: November 28, 2023 08:09AM
Diameter is not circumference, agreed. But if I tell you a circle's diameter, you had darn well better know how to calculate its circumference and area from it.

Diameter is a clear, consistent measurement to use for circles - and it's measured with a straight line, and gives you a dimension that is key to discerning the area needed to contain your circle.

If I tell you my circle has a 6" diameter, you can do something with that; you know your container has to be at least 6.x" to accommodate that circle.

If I tell you my circle has a 16" circumference, how wide does your container need to be?

If you're complaining that circles don't have size, I'd say it's you being insensible to common parlance of sides and ends and across. Could the speakers/writers be more syntactically exacting? Sure.



g=
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Re: Diameter is not circumference.
Posted by: TheTominator
Date: November 28, 2023 08:24AM
Quote
gabester
Diameter is a clear, consistent measurement to use for circles - and it's measured with a straight line, and gives you a dimension that is key to discerning the area needed to contain your circle.

There are situations where it is common to measure the circumference and deduce the diameter. The DBH (Diameter at Breast Height) of a tree is one example.
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Re: Diameter is not circumference.
Posted by: rz
Date: November 28, 2023 09:06AM
Quote
macphanatic
It's going to get worse. I don't know if it's our education system or people in general, but the increase in the lack of knowledge is unbelievable.

I think it's people in general. They still teach this stuff. Some people just don't care to learn it or remember it.

I always had a love/hate relationship with math. It always seemed like the math classes were the hardest, and I'd have to work twice as hard as other subjects to get good grades. But it paid off because once I reached college, with the exception of one class, math seemed easy. I was a comp-sci major, and at my school I only needed to take one extra math class beyond the required ones to get a minor in math. So 3 semesters of Calculus, Linear Algebra, Numerical Analysis, 2 semesters of Probability and Statistics, Diff Eq, and a couple others were a pretty large bulk of my course load. Sad part is that other than a few things from Linear Algebra and Numerical Analysis, I've never had to use any of the stuff from the other classes in my career.
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Re: Diameter is not circumference.
Posted by: ztirffritz
Date: November 28, 2023 09:07AM
They're bakers, not mathematicians.



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Re: Diameter is not circumference.
Posted by: datbeme
Date: November 28, 2023 09:24AM
This just sounds like typical poor English used in cheap Chinese products on Amazon—which should be no surprise.

As for a "standard size," a pie plate or pan will likely have several measurements of diameter such as the maximum external dimension (so you know the overall size), the interior diameter at the base, and the interior inside the lip. Height plays a role too. So one diameter measurement doesn't tell you much.

EDIT:

Ok, you're right. This had me wondering about basketball hoops. I know the diameter is 18", but I wasn't sure if this referred to the inside or outside diameter. I fount this somewhere which proves your point about people messing this up:

Quote

The size of a standard basketball hop is regulated by the National Basketball Association (NBA), which states that all hoops must have an inner rim or circumference of 18 inches in diameter...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2023 09:28AM by datbeme.
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Re: Diameter is not circumference.
Posted by: macphanatic
Date: November 28, 2023 10:25AM
Quote
ztirffritz
They're bakers, not mathematicians.

Good bakers need to understand some basic chemistry. Basic math is also kind of important in order to be able to adjust recipes.
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Re: Diameter is not circumference.
Posted by: Tiangou
Date: November 28, 2023 11:26AM
Quote
datbeme
Ok, you're right. This had me wondering about basketball hoops. I know the diameter is 18", but I wasn't sure if this referred to the inside or outside diameter. I fount this somewhere which proves your point about people messing this up:

Quote

The size of a standard basketball hop is regulated by the National Basketball Association (NBA), which states that all hoops must have an inner rim or circumference of 18 inches in diameter...

They didn't mess that up. It reads plainly to me.

A "circumference" is the arc length of a circle. As it defines a circle, it must have a diameter. The diameter of the inner rim of a regulation-hoop must be 18-inches.

The problem here is the flexibility of interpretation of the English language, not a misunderstanding of mathematics (or specifically geometry).



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Re: Diameter is not circumference.
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: November 28, 2023 11:44AM
Quote
DeusxMac
Quote
RAMd®d
Pro Tip: Circles don't have sides.

Sure they do.
- As you’re looking at it ,there’s a left and right side.
- If we’re splitting a pizza, there’s your side and my side.

There's also inside and outside.



It is what it is.
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Re: Diameter is not circumference.
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: November 28, 2023 11:46AM
Quote
gabester
If you're complaining that circles don't have size, I'd say it's you being insensible to common parlance of sides and ends and across. Could the speakers/writers be more syntactically exacting? Sure.

I believe the statement made was "circles don't have sides." Not sizes.



It is what it is.
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Re: Diameter is not circumference.
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: November 28, 2023 11:47AM
Quote
ztirffritz
They're bakers, not mathematicians.

There is a saying that goes "Cooking is an art, baking is a science."

Bakers definitely need to know math.



It is what it is.
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Re: Diameter is not circumference.
Posted by: gabester
Date: November 28, 2023 12:03PM
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
Quote
gabester
If you're complaining that circles don't have size, I'd say it's you being insensible to common parlance of sides and ends and across. Could the speakers/writers be more syntactically exacting? Sure.

I believe the statement made was "circles don't have sides." Not sizes.

I blame text autocorrection!



g=
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Re: Diameter is not circumference.
Posted by: Todd's keyboard
Date: November 28, 2023 12:18PM
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
Quote
DeusxMac
Quote
RAMd®d
Pro Tip: Circles don't have sides.

Sure they do.
- As you’re looking at it ,there’s a left and right side.
- If we’re splitting a pizza, there’s your side and my side.

There's also inside and outside.

Well, if we're sharing pizzas, I'll take the top side, please.

Todd's cheeseboard
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Re: Diameter is not circumference.
Posted by: PeterB
Date: November 28, 2023 12:33PM
Quote
DeusxMac
Quote
RAMd®d
Pro Tip: Circles don't have sides.

Sure they do.
- As you’re looking at it ,there’s a left and right side.
- If we’re splitting a pizza, there’s myyour side and my side.

FTFY.




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: Diameter is not circumference.
Posted by: kj
Date: November 28, 2023 01:08PM
People pick the wrong mathematical model to describe physical objects, then argue over the attributes of that wrong model. For example, people call a pizza a circle, then say it has no sides when in fact it is more of a cylinder, which would mean it has one. Unfortunately, a pizza isn't really a cylinder either because it's solid. So in reality it has three sides. But if you use the wrong model, you're going make odd conclusions, like a pie tin has no sides (a circle has no sides, but a pie tin is not really a circle).
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Re: Diameter is not circumference.
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: November 28, 2023 01:32PM
But if I tell you a circle's diameter, you had darn well better know how to calculate its circumference and area from it.


If I ask you for a circle's diameter, you darn well better know I don't GAF about circumference.

If I ask you about a circles diameter, and you know it, you darn well better not give me a circumference.



If you're complaining that circles don't have size

You really need to reread my post.


People pick the wrong mathematical model to describe physical objects, then argue over the attributes of that wrong model

The irrelevant pedantry is strong in this thread.


But there's been humor, so there's a plus.

That PiTape is a really interesting bit.

I had no idea there was such a thing, but its utility is obvious.






I am that Masked Man.

All you can do, is all you can do.

There’s trouble — it's time to play the sound of my people.

Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

I've been to the edge of the map, and there be monsters.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody counts or nobody counts.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: Diameter is not circumference.
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: November 28, 2023 01:52PM
Quote
kj
People pick the wrong mathematical model to describe physical objects, then argue over the attributes of that wrong model. For example, people call a pizza a circle, then say it has no sides when in fact it is more of a cylinder, which would mean it has one. Unfortunately, a pizza isn't really a cylinder either because it's solid. So in reality it has three sides. But if you use the wrong model, you're going make odd conclusions, like a pie tin has no sides (a circle has no sides, but a pie tin is not really a circle).

Nobody cares about the depth of a pizza, unless maybe you are talking about a deep dish pizza. Even then, nobody cares about the depth of a pizza because pizza size offerings are based on diameter and no other dimension. For all intents and purposes, a pizza is a circle.

Where did you get the idea that a cylinder can not be solid?



It is what it is.
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Re: Diameter is not circumference.
Posted by: GGD
Date: November 28, 2023 04:01PM
Quote
Bernie
All this MATH could get this post moved to the other side.
smiley-laughing001

[www.youtube.com]
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Re: Diameter is not circumference.
Posted by: kj
Date: November 28, 2023 05:31PM
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
Quote
kj
People pick the wrong mathematical model to describe physical objects, then argue over the attributes of that wrong model. For example, people call a pizza a circle, then say it has no sides when in fact it is more of a cylinder, which would mean it has one. Unfortunately, a pizza isn't really a cylinder either because it's solid. So in reality it has three sides. But if you use the wrong model, you're going make odd conclusions, like a pie tin has no sides (a circle has no sides, but a pie tin is not really a circle).

Nobody cares about the depth of a pizza, unless maybe you are talking about a deep dish pizza. Even then, nobody cares about the depth of a pizza because pizza size offerings are based on diameter and no other dimension. For all intents and purposes, a pizza is a circle.

Where did you get the idea that a cylinder can not be solid?

A solid cylinder is solid. A hollow cylinder is hollow. It can be, but isn't necessarily. A pizza is a solid cylinder. I momentarily forgot about the solid vs hollow thing. It seems like people usually assume hollow cylinder when they say cylinder, but I'll have to ask a mathematician about that.

No, a pizza isn't a circle, as far as I understand. If it was a circle, it would be more like just the crust and none of the good stuff. You can describe the size of a pizza nicely by stating the size of a circle that would outline it, but the actual geometric shape of a pizza isn't a circle at all, I don't think. So most of the things we call circles actually do have sides (because they aren't circles). If people are going to get pedantic, we might as well do it good.
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Re: Diameter is not circumference.
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: November 28, 2023 05:54PM
Quote
kj
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
Quote
kj
People pick the wrong mathematical model to describe physical objects, then argue over the attributes of that wrong model. For example, people call a pizza a circle, then say it has no sides when in fact it is more of a cylinder, which would mean it has one. Unfortunately, a pizza isn't really a cylinder either because it's solid. So in reality it has three sides. But if you use the wrong model, you're going make odd conclusions, like a pie tin has no sides (a circle has no sides, but a pie tin is not really a circle).

Nobody cares about the depth of a pizza, unless maybe you are talking about a deep dish pizza. Even then, nobody cares about the depth of a pizza because pizza size offerings are based on diameter and no other dimension. For all intents and purposes, a pizza is a circle.

Where did you get the idea that a cylinder can not be solid?

A solid cylinder is solid. A hollow cylinder is hollow. It can be, but isn't necessarily. A pizza is a solid cylinder. I momentarily forgot about the solid vs hollow thing. It seems like people usually assume hollow cylinder when they say cylinder, but I'll have to ask a mathematician about that.

No, a pizza isn't a circle, as far as I understand. If it was a circle, it would be more like just the crust and none of the good stuff. You can describe the size of a pizza nicely by stating the size of a circle that would outline it, but the actual geometric shape of a pizza isn't a circle at all, I don't think. So most of the things we call circles actually do have sides (because they aren't circles). If people are going to get pedantic, we might as well do it good.

Actually, I though my post was the opposite of pedantic - I used simple logic to generalize about the geometry of a pizza.

Yours, OTOH - well, let's just say I'll be addressing you as Professor Pedant from now on. grinning smiley



It is what it is.
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Re: Diameter is not circumference.
Posted by: Tiangou
Date: November 28, 2023 05:59PM
Quote
kj
No, a pizza isn't a circle, as far as I understand.

A circle is a shape consisting of all points in a plane that are at a specific distance from a point at the center.

A Platonically perfect pizza crust will be a circle, and as a solid object it can be described as a series of circles or as a cylinder, or if the crust is puffy at the edges then as a torus surrounding a cylinder.







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2023 05:59PM by Tiangou.
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Re: Diameter is not circumference.
Posted by: Lux Interior
Date: November 29, 2023 07:06AM
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
Nobody cares about the depth of a pizza

Now we begin the new phase of this thread:

Is a Chicago deep-dish pizza really a pizza or is it a casserole?
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Re: Diameter is not circumference.
Posted by: Ca Bob
Date: November 29, 2023 12:46PM
Consider the horse as a perfect sphere . . .

There would be a problem if you have a circle and you know nothing else about it, because you can pick any point on the circle and try to guess the point which is exactly opposite it, but you can only approximate that choice. On the other hand, if you drew the circle using a compass, you know to within your ability to measure distance what the radius is (just measure the length spanned by the compass against a ruler).

There is another issue, which is the question as to how perfect the circle is.

And no, the circumference is not the diameter, and I would attribute such errors to poor English.
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Re: Diameter is not circumference.
Posted by: kj
Date: November 29, 2023 07:07PM
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
Quote
kj
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
Quote
kj
People pick the wrong mathematical model to describe physical objects, then argue over the attributes of that wrong model. For example, people call a pizza a circle, then say it has no sides when in fact it is more of a cylinder, which would mean it has one. Unfortunately, a pizza isn't really a cylinder either because it's solid. So in reality it has three sides. But if you use the wrong model, you're going make odd conclusions, like a pie tin has no sides (a circle has no sides, but a pie tin is not really a circle).

Nobody cares about the depth of a pizza, unless maybe you are talking about a deep dish pizza. Even then, nobody cares about the depth of a pizza because pizza size offerings are based on diameter and no other dimension. For all intents and purposes, a pizza is a circle.

Where did you get the idea that a cylinder can not be solid?

A solid cylinder is solid. A hollow cylinder is hollow. It can be, but isn't necessarily. A pizza is a solid cylinder. I momentarily forgot about the solid vs hollow thing. It seems like people usually assume hollow cylinder when they say cylinder, but I'll have to ask a mathematician about that.

No, a pizza isn't a circle, as far as I understand. If it was a circle, it would be more like just the crust and none of the good stuff. You can describe the size of a pizza nicely by stating the size of a circle that would outline it, but the actual geometric shape of a pizza isn't a circle at all, I don't think. So most of the things we call circles actually do have sides (because they aren't circles). If people are going to get pedantic, we might as well do it good.

Actually, I though my post was the opposite of pedantic - I used simple logic to generalize about the geometry of a pizza.

Yours, OTOH - well, let's just say I'll be addressing you as Professor Pedant from now on. grinning smiley

I wasn't addressing your post as pedantic, someone had described a lot of the posts that way. I think many of us are being pedantic, I just find it interesting.
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Re: Diameter is not circumference.
Posted by: kj
Date: November 29, 2023 07:20PM
Quote
Tiangou
Quote
kj
No, a pizza isn't a circle, as far as I understand.

A circle is a shape consisting of all points in a plane that are at a specific distance from a point at the center.

A Platonically perfect pizza crust will be a circle, and as a solid object it can be described as a series of circles or as a cylinder, or if the crust is puffy at the edges then as a torus surrounding a cylinder.

A pizza is not a circle, I've been informed it would be more of a disc (a circle including all the points inside the circle), except that a disc has no height. A pizza is more of a solid cylinder, but as you're saying, there are still better models. At least calling it a solid cylinder allows you to arrive at the correct statement that the pizza has "sides". Calling it a circle would lead you to say it has no sides.
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Re: Diameter is not circumference.
Posted by: kj
Date: November 29, 2023 07:23PM
Quote
Lux Interior
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
Nobody cares about the depth of a pizza

Now we begin the new phase of this thread:

Is a Chicago deep-dish pizza really a pizza or is it a casserole?

It's a savory cake.
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Re: Diameter is not circumference.
Posted by: davester
Date: November 29, 2023 09:58PM
Quote
kj
Quote
Tiangou
Quote
kj
No, a pizza isn't a circle, as far as I understand.

A circle is a shape consisting of all points in a plane that are at a specific distance from a point at the center.

A Platonically perfect pizza crust will be a circle, and as a solid object it can be described as a series of circles or as a cylinder, or if the crust is puffy at the edges then as a torus surrounding a cylinder.

A pizza is not a circle, I've been informed it would be more of a disc (a circle including all the points inside the circle), except that a disc has no height. A pizza is more of a solid cylinder, but as you're saying, there are still better models. At least calling it a solid cylinder allows you to arrive at the correct statement that the pizza has "sides". Calling it a circle would lead you to say it has no sides.

What about a Detroit-style pizza (which is rectangular in shape, for those of you who don't know). Is it actually to be considered a pizza?



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan
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Re: Diameter is not circumference.
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: November 29, 2023 09:59PM
Quote
kj
Quote
Lux Interior
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
Nobody cares about the depth of a pizza

Now we begin the new phase of this thread:

Is a Chicago deep-dish pizza really a pizza or is it a casserole?

It's a savory cake pie.

FTFY
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Re: Diameter is not circumference.
Posted by: Tiangou
Date: November 30, 2023 12:02AM
Quote
DeusxMac
Quote
kj
Quote
Lux Interior
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
Nobody cares about the depth of a pizza

Now we begin the new phase of this thread:

Is a Chicago deep-dish pizza really a pizza or is it a casserole?

It's a savory cake pie pastry.

FTFY


FTFY.

Pastry.



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Re: Diameter is not circumference.
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: November 30, 2023 07:51AM
Pie is more specific; all pies are pastry, but not all pastries are pies.

“Pies are defined by their crusts. A filled pie (also single-crust or bottom-crust), has pastry lining the baking dish, and the filling is placed on top of the pastry but left open.”
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Re: Diameter is not circumference.
Posted by: Tiangou
Date: November 30, 2023 08:31AM
Quote
DeusxMac
Pie is more specific; all pies are pastry, but not all pastries are pies.

“Pies are defined by their crusts. A filled pie (also single-crust or bottom-crust), has pastry lining the baking dish, and the filling is placed on top of the pastry but left open.”

I'll give you that it CAN be considered a pie.

But consider that it also meets the definition of a savory TART.



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Re: Diameter is not circumference.
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: November 30, 2023 08:59AM
Quote
Tiangou
Quote
DeusxMac
Pie is more specific; all pies are pastry, but not all pastries are pies.

“Pies are defined by their crusts. A filled pie (also single-crust or bottom-crust), has pastry lining the baking dish, and the filling is placed on top of the pastry but left open.”

I'll give you that it CAN be considered a pie.

But consider that it also meets the definition of a savory TART.

We can agree it's definitely not a "cake".
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Re: Diameter is not circumference.
Posted by: kj
Date: November 30, 2023 08:34PM
It's to thick to be a pizza pie. It's a cake.
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Re: Diameter is not circumference.
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: December 01, 2023 09:29AM
Quote
kj
It's to thick to be a pizza pie. It's a cake.

smiley-signs006 Depth is NOT what differentiates a pie from a cake.

"Pies are defined by their crusts." X A cake does NOT have a crust.
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