Feeling a bit on edge with the latest Being 737 news. There have been two 737 crashes in the last few years that was due to the plane malfunction. Now poorly installed door caps are bing discovered after one just fell off a 737. Is this just a 737 model thing? A Boeing safety thing? Is it paranoid and knee-jerk to be choosing flights that use Airbus planes this year? Should one be concerned with airline safety or is it all just random luck?

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I bet your odds are still better than driving.

I don't see a connection between the plane you're potentially flying on and the planes that have been grounded.

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mattkime
I bet your odds are still better than driving.

I don't see a connection between the plane you're potentially flying on and the planes that have been grounded.

Isn't the Boeing 737 the model that has had two crashes recently and the wonky door caps?

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Post your flight info here so we will know what happened to you if there is a crash and you stop posting.

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Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.

I think the Max is a different aircraft than the other 737s, no? (paging Carnos)

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Speedy
Post your flight info here so we will know what happened to you if there is a crash and you stop posting.

I have a designated poster to inform the forum if I can no longer post.

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mrbigstuff
I think the Max is a different aircraft than the other 737s, no? (paging Carnos)

The Max is the 4th gen of the 737 according to wikipedia. There are many variants of the Max model. I am still reading and trying to educate myself. Lots of info to intake and process. [en.wikipedia.org]

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/09/2024 09:10PM by pRICE cUBE.

Accidents [en.wikipedia.org]

Following the crashes of two 737 MAX 8 aircraft, Lion Air Flight 610 in October 2018 and Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 in March 2019, which caused 346 deaths, civil aviation authorities around the world grounded the 737 MAX series.[84] On December 16, 2019, Boeing announced that it would suspend production of the 737 MAX from January 2020.[85] Production of the MAX series resumed on May 27, 2020.[197]

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You are overthinking it. 120 peeps die in auto accidents every *day* in the US. Using that logic, and then the math from "flying" deaths, you would want to fly everywhere.

fast search: Global passenger volume in 2023 is expected to reach 8.6 billion passengers, which is 94.2% of the 2019 level...

and: [www.youtube.com]

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Edited 999 time(s). Last edit at 12:08PM by jdc.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/09/2024 09:23PM by jdc.

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jdc
You are overthinking it. 120 peeps die in auto accidents every *day* in the US. Using that logic, and then the math from "flying" deaths, you would want to fly everywhere.

fast search: Global passenger volume in 2023 is expected to reach 8.6 billion passengers, which is 94.2% of the 2019 level...

and: [www.youtube.com]

ehhhh... not really comparable, this statistic is pretty worthless. one can control one's destiny a WHOLE LOT more by riding in a car than by strapping into a metal tube traveling 500mph at five miles altitude.

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High on a threshold yearning to sing
Down with the dancers having one last fling

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pRICE cUBE

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mrbigstuff
I think the Max is a different aircraft than the other 737s, no? (paging Carnos)

The Max is the 4th gen of the 737 according to wikipedia. There are many variants of the Max model. I am still reading and trying to educate myself. Lots of info to intake and process. [en.wikipedia.org]

Yes, same model line, just the latest generation. Each generation is differentiated by general refinements and advances in wing/engine/cockpit.

I understand that airline travel is vastly safer that car travel. I am asking about the Boeing's attitude toward safety for passengers as a whole. I am trying to gather good information to make an educated decision.

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Personally, I wouldn’t be worried about traveling on a Boeing aircraft. Yeah, these sorts of incidents are disheartening, but they are still so infrequent, as to be almost nonexistent. You probably have better odds of winning the lottery.

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mrbigstuff
one can control one's destiny a WHOLE LOT more by riding in a car

Thats exactly what should worry you.

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Carnos Jax
Personally, I wouldn’t be worried about traveling on a Boeing aircraft. Yeah, these sorts of incidents are disheartening, but they are still so infrequent, as to be almost nonexistent. You probably have better odds of winning the lottery.

I appreciate the the input. Statistically these notable events are small, I understand that. This door plug issue seems so preventable and it wasn't a one off. United and Alaska found loose bolts on multiple planes. Seems like one too many at the moment. Thought I would research information and have a discussion about it.

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Don’t blame you at all, it’s a good discussion to have. And just to be clear, I’m not trying to belittle these incidents. On the contrary, they need to be scrutinized heavily. And that’s one good thing about aviation, when things go wrong, we try to find out why, and educate ourselves so as to prevent future incidents.

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Carnos Jax
And that’s one good thing about aviation, when things go wrong, we try to find out why, and educate ourselves so as to prevent future incidents.

True.

Applying that same principle to cars doesn't really work... you have the Firestones, or the takata airbags recalls... but they didn't stop using *every* car in the world with those immediately.

all of the Max9s were grounded. Asap. and Im sure those bolts are now part of revised checklist for *every* airliner now. Maybe not everyday, but part of some routine now.

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Edited 999 time(s). Last edit at 12:08PM by jdc.

Ultimately though, as an engineer, I take solace in numbers. That’s why I don’t worry about flying on mainline US airlines. On a personal note however, I tend to prefer Airbus, as they feel more roomy and comfortable.

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Carnos Jax
Don’t blame you at all, it’s a good discussion to have. And just to be clear, I’m not trying to belittle these incidents. On the contrary, they need to be scrutinized heavily. And that’s one good thing about aviation, when things go wrong, we try to find out why, and educate ourselves so as to prevent future incidents.

I didn't get the sense of any downplaying anything.

Having a former profession in the news business, I am aware of how shocking news can grab disproportionate attention. Shouldn't we listen to pilots warnings? I am not an expert on all things so I try to seek out authentic and level headed subject matter experts and information sources.

Seeing headlines such as the following are unsettling though [fortune.com]

I ponder this. How big of an issue would this be if someone had been sucked out at 15k feet and plunged to their death instead of being amused that an iPhone survived the fall?

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Ways to improve web conference image and sound quality. [forums.macresource.com]

There would’ve been outrage. For now there’s just nervous laughter.

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jdc
You are overthinking it. 120 peeps die in auto accidents every *day* in the US. Using that logic, and then the math from "flying" deaths, you would want to fly everywhere.

fast search: Global passenger volume in 2023 is expected to reach 8.6 billion passengers, which is 94.2% of the 2019 level...

and: [www.youtube.com]

So...... Basically, if you survive the drive to the airport, you're golden.

My father died in a plane crash, so I married a flight attendant.
My wife's first roommate as a flight attendant, who is still one of her BFF's,
lost her mother to a car crash, while the mom was literally running last minute errands
in Chicago, getting ready to go visit her in Hawaii....
on a flight later that day, that sadly she never took.

Shit happens to other people. Until it doesn't. Worrying has no effect; so don't bother with it.

(but I'll keep my fingers crossed for ya, just in case)
==

Well FlightAware app tells you what plane has been used on a route. So you can use that to dvhedule

Please avoid 737 flights, especially the MAX.

I find the MAX are noticeably quieter and have the bigger bins, and the latest entertainment systems. If you avoid the MAX, that leaves more seats for me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/09/2024 11:04PM by ADent.

Also, having paranoia regarding unlikely events like plane decompression accidents is statistically more likely to shorten your life than would those unlikely events.

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"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan

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mrbigstuff
I think the Max is a different aircraft than the other 737s, no? (paging Carnos)

The initial 737 entered service in 1968.
The 737 Max entered service in 2017. The first variant was the Max 8.
There are zillions of Max 8s in service. The Max 9 is the one that was grounded for inspection. Here is who is using Max 9s.

What happens if you book a flight and the airline substitutes the plane model at the last minute? can you ask to be rebooked?

This incident was in no way related to the earlier crashes.

The 737 is the base model, it has been redesigned and reconfigured into numerous sub-models. This incident was on a very limited series of planes that those airlines chose. All of those planes have been grounded until corrections are made. Every other 737 flying has an exit door where that plug was. It is a different design, the bolts in question do not even exist in the others.

Look at it this way - the Toyota Corrolla has been in production since 1966. If a dangerous design fault was found in the 2023 XSE model and only that model, would you be concerned if you had a 2005 base model? They are both Corrollas, but still different vehicles.

I prefer Airbus, not because I don't trust Boeing but rather because I find it to be more comfortable. Still, I wouldn't worry if my flight was on a Boeing. Frankly, I'm more concerned about the drive to the airport.

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mrbigstuff

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jdc
You are overthinking it. 120 peeps die in auto accidents every *day* in the US. Using that logic, and then the math from "flying" deaths, you would want to fly everywhere.

fast search: Global passenger volume in 2023 is expected to reach 8.6 billion passengers, which is 94.2% of the 2019 level...

and: [www.youtube.com]

ehhhh... not really comparable, this statistic is pretty worthless. one can control one's destiny a WHOLE LOT more by riding in a car than by strapping into a metal tube traveling 500mph at five miles altitude.

Can one? There are a million plus idiots on the road. How many fatalities are the result of another driver or something out of the control of the person in the car that died?

FYI - just because one books a flight on an aircraft that isn't a 737, doesn't mean that you won't be on one. While not common, airlines do switch the operating aircraft for any number of reasons.

Feels like a platform that has been overextended beyond safety limits (without compromising _{executive bonuses} profits...

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San Antonio, TX (in the old city)


"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
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I think Boeing cut some corners in the development of the MAX planes. A friend of mine is a pilot and he's frustrated that Southwest essentially demanded that the MAX have the same cockpit as the previous 737 models. He prefers to fly Airbus planes, as they are easier to fly and the cockpits are more up-to-date.

I've flown as a passenger on several MAX planes. They feel the same as the 737-800... noisy, cramped, and creaky with updated lighting and seats. Woopee.

If you have a choice, Airbus is more comfortable and quieter, although Boeing is fine. I think the scrutiny Boeing has faced since 2019 has intensified inspections, and the latest door incident will raise the heat.

Either plane beats driving for safety and time.

If given a choice, I will always take Airbus. They put more thought in passenger comfort than to pandering to airlines' desires to squeeze more passengers per square foot. This applies to bathrooms as well. But safety-wise, I would likely be OK flying on a Boeing now. Actually, my trip in a couple of weeks involves a 767 and a 787.

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macphanatic

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mrbigstuff

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jdc
You are overthinking it. 120 peeps die in auto accidents every *day* in the US. Using that logic, and then the math from "flying" deaths, you would want to fly everywhere.

fast search: Global passenger volume in 2023 is expected to reach 8.6 billion passengers, which is 94.2% of the 2019 level...

and: [www.youtube.com]

ehhhh... not really comparable, this statistic is pretty worthless. one can control one's destiny a WHOLE LOT more by riding in a car than by strapping into a metal tube traveling 500mph at five miles altitude.

Can one? There are a million plus idiots on the road. How many fatalities are the result of another driver or something out of the control of the person in the car that died?

FYI - just because one books a flight on an aircraft that isn't a 737, doesn't mean that you won't be on one. While not common, airlines do switch the operating aircraft for any number of reasons.

Per mile traveled, even cycling is safer than driving... but drivers enjoy the illusion feeling that they're "in control."

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zachdog
I think Boeing cut some corners in the development of the MAX planes. A friend of mine is a pilot and he's frustrated that Southwest essentially demanded that the MAX have the same cockpit as the previous 737 models. He prefers to fly Airbus planes, as they are easier to fly and the cockpits are more up-to-date.

Wouldn't changing the cockpit effectively change the "type" and require years of certification and pilot training before it could enter service? I'd think your friend would understand that. Or maybe something changed in the paraphrasing.

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macphanatic

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mrbigstuff

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jdc
You are overthinking it. 120 peeps die in auto accidents every *day* in the US. Using that logic, and then the math from "flying" deaths, you would want to fly everywhere.

fast search: Global passenger volume in 2023 is expected to reach 8.6 billion passengers, which is 94.2% of the 2019 level...

and: [www.youtube.com]

ehhhh... not really comparable, this statistic is pretty worthless. one can control one's destiny a WHOLE LOT more by riding in a car than by strapping into a metal tube traveling 500mph at five miles altitude.

Can one? There are a million plus idiots on the road. How many fatalities are the result of another driver or something out of the control of the person in the car that died?

FYI - just because one books a flight on an aircraft that isn't a 737, doesn't mean that you won't be on one. While not common, airlines do switch the operating aircraft for any number of reasons.

Perhaps I'm one of a few but I know where the loose bolts are on my car and if they're necessary. To the point of other drivers, the situational awareness I have is not present in everyone, I'll grant you that.

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High on a threshold yearning to sing
Down with the dancers having one last fling

They may ground these until all are fixed. You may not have a choice.

I am still very confident in the safety of air travel. I would be much more concerned about all the a-hole drivers, especial here in Chicago - where red lights have become "optional" and the should has become the fast pass lane.

JPK

You are overthinking it.


Yes.

Maybe.

Once one embraces the inevitability of death, embracing probabilities becomes easier.


one can control one's destiny a WHOLE LOT more by riding in a car than by strapping into a metal tube traveling 500mph at five miles altitude.


While true, that doesn't at all mean their destiny will be one of longer life.

Really all it means is they won't die while on a crashing plane.

A true irony would be avoiding taking a flight only to be killed while driving a car struck by a crashing plane.

That is of course ludicrous, as it's much more likely that something one can't control — the actions of The Other Guy taking one out, would be the cause of death.

Not that there aren't a number of solo car crashes that end in the death of the driver.


All that said, I have no idea what these latest Boeing incidents have on the maintenance of their entire fleet.

I think the few crashes they've had compared to the number of flights, suggests better than a laissez faire attitude towards maintenance.

The last flight I made was on a Southwest 737 and it wasn't comfortable.

I felt a little guilty about leaning my seat back, though I would have been incensed if the person behind me used those blocks to prevent my seat from reclining.

So an AirBus might be my choice, if I needed to fly.

I appreciate creature comforts.

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You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.

We are scheduled to take one of these United flights on Saturday. My wife and I are together.

We are allowed to change without a fee, according to United.

We figure we will stick to our schedule, and 'die together'. Besides, might have more room if others take different plans.

If there's no new posts next week...!

Does Quantas fly the 737 Max?

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freeradical
Does Quantas fly the 737 Max?

No, they have some 737 "Next Generations" but you're likely to end up on a larger plane if it's an overseas flight.
[www.qantas.com]
[en.wikipedia.org]

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Black

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zachdog
I think Boeing cut some corners in the development of the MAX planes. A friend of mine is a pilot and he's frustrated that Southwest essentially demanded that the MAX have the same cockpit as the previous 737 models. He prefers to fly Airbus planes, as they are easier to fly and the cockpits are more up-to-date.

Wouldn't changing the cockpit effectively change the "type" and require years of certification and pilot training before it could enter service? I'd think your friend would understand that. Or maybe something changed in the paraphrasing.

He fully understood that. His complaint is that flying a 737 is like driving a 1978 Chevy. It hasn’t been updated, and Southwest is the reason.

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zachdog

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Black

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zachdog
I think Boeing cut some corners in the development of the MAX planes. A friend of mine is a pilot and he's frustrated that Southwest essentially demanded that the MAX have the same cockpit as the previous 737 models. He prefers to fly Airbus planes, as they are easier to fly and the cockpits are more up-to-date.

Wouldn't changing the cockpit effectively change the "type" and require years of certification and pilot training before it could enter service? I'd think your friend would understand that. Or maybe something changed in the paraphrasing.

He fully understood that. His complaint is that flying a 737 is like driving a 1978 Chevy. It hasn’t been updated, and Southwest is the reason.

I think Southwest has a pretty good safety record? It's pretty much all I fly, which means I only experience the various Max 8 variants. But then again, if I had to rent a car, a cheap and convenient service that offers well maintained older vehicles might appeal most to me. What are his reasons for not moving to another airline?

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Black

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zachdog

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Black

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zachdog
I think Boeing cut some corners in the development of the MAX planes. A friend of mine is a pilot and he's frustrated that Southwest essentially demanded that the MAX have the same cockpit as the previous 737 models. He prefers to fly Airbus planes, as they are easier to fly and the cockpits are more up-to-date.

Wouldn't changing the cockpit effectively change the "type" and require years of certification and pilot training before it could enter service? I'd think your friend would understand that. Or maybe something changed in the paraphrasing.

He fully understood that. His complaint is that flying a 737 is like driving a 1978 Chevy. It hasn’t been updated, and Southwest is the reason.

I think Southwest has a pretty good safety record? It's pretty much all I fly, which means I only experience the various Max 8 variants. But then again, if I had to rent a car, a cheap and convenient service that offers well maintained older vehicles might appeal most to me. What are his reasons for not moving to another airline?

He flys for Alaska Airlines, and formerly for Virgin, which flew exclusively Airbus.

Southwest is a great airline. They just want as much interchangeability between all their aircraft, so the new equipment is still using yesterday’s cockpit layout.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/17/2024 03:55PM by zachdog.