Not exactly straight forward. Can't ID the car.

[youtu.be]

fire blankets are a great idea

[ctif.org]

Up to 150,000 liters of water needed to put out a fire in an electric car... Teslas may take up to 30,000-40,000 gallons of water, maybe even more, to extinguish the battery pack once it starts burning...

(150,000 liters is pushing 40,000 gallons.)

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Content no longer available on Youtube.

Strange - it's a safari thing. Chrome is working well.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2024 03:05PM by Spiff.

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Spiff
Content no longer available on Youtube.

Strange - it's a safari thing. Chrome is working well.

There's a YouTube ad-block war going on this week. All sorts of weirdness.

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hal
fire blankets are a great idea

But you can’t remove the fire blanket. A fire department posted a video of a fire blanket extinguishing a ev fire. They waited awhile and as soon as they removed the blanket, the fire started right away.

This is why a lot of commercial property and some residential property insurance companies are putting restrictions on indoor and garage parking of EV’s. Parking garages are especially challenging as the fire department can’t get their equipment in and it is challenging to get the car out.

Yes an EV battery fire can be difficult. That said, ICE cars are not immune to weird fires as well.

Most cars have some magnesium based components and when they catch on fire, they are also very difficult to extinguish. I spent 18 years on a volunteer department and we had some spectacular incidents.

The most memorable was a VW van that overheated due to low oil and got to the point where the magnesium block caught on fire. The van was toast, even after we pumped thousands of gallons of water on it from the river. There was barely a shell left to the van, and it burned away the asphalt under the engines area.

We had several calls for people that had alloy wheels on cars and drove an extended time on flat tires, eventually catching the rims on fire. Once that happens, kiss the rest of the car goodbye.

Getting back to the EV fire thing, yes they are spectacular, but fires in unattended ICE vehicles are about 10 times more common and can be just as problematic once they get going.

In the video posted by OP, the car was a Jaguar I-Pace that had an active recall for potential battery fires that had not been addressed.

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“Live your life, love your life, don’t regret…live, learn and move forward positively.” – CR Johnson
Loving life in Lake Tahoe, CA



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2024 04:17PM by Markintosh.

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Markintosh
In the video posted by OP, the car was a Jaguar I-Pace that had an active recall for potential battery fires that had not been addressed.

Jaguar will be VERY happy that the whole (very expensive) house didn't burn too

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Wags
Not exactly straight forward. Can't ID the car.

[youtu.be]

"…2019 Jaguar I-PACE that was charging when the fire occurred."

What you don't see are all the ICE fires, rates of which are orders of magnitude more frequent than EV fires. And for the most part it doesn’t matter which is burning in your home, as by the time you notice it it’s too late and your house is gone.

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Markintosh
Getting back to the EV fire thing, yes they are spectacular, but fires in unattended ICE vehicles are about 10 times more common and can be just as problematic once they get going.

Are they about 10 times more common because there are 10 times greater number of ICE cars on the road? I would think there are a lot more ICE vehicles than 10 times the number of electric vehicles…

Also, I would posit that a very small percentage of ICE vehicle fires are magnesium engine block or alloy wheel based, and are generally handled with commonly available materials and procedures developed over the last 100 years.

Update - I just did a search. The best I found was an article from Car and Driver, August 2022, that stated that approximately 1% of the 250 million registered passenger vehicles in the US are electric, and that about 4.6% of the new vehicle registrations were electric vehicles.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2024 04:46PM by Cary.

^ Incidence per car on the road. An ICE car is about 10x as likely to have a vehicle fire. ICE vehicles can have fires attributed to both electrical causes or gasoline causes

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“Live your life, love your life, don’t regret…live, learn and move forward positively.” – CR Johnson
Loving life in Lake Tahoe, CA

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Cary

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Markintosh
Getting back to the EV fire thing, yes they are spectacular, but fires in unattended ICE vehicles are about 10 times more common and can be just as problematic once they get going.

Are they about 10 times more common because there are 10 times greater number of ICE cars on the road. I would think there are a lot more ICE vehicles than 10 times the number of electric vehicles…

No, he’s referencing the rates. For a given amount of vehicles, ICE cars are much more frequently likely to catch fire.

If you’re going to be nervous about an EV catching fire in your garage, then you should be much, much more nervous about your ICE vehicle doing the same. Of course most people aren’t. This is just an anti-EV myth that’s propagating on the internet.

Caron’s Jax, I’m generally not nervous about any vehicle catching fire, and I’m not anti EV. I am considering buying one.

Having said that, you can’t ignore the fact that putting out a lithium ion battery fire is very different than putting out a gasoline fire, and more difficult. Hence the concerns with lithium ion batteries (much smaller ones) on airplanes.

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Carnos Jax

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Cary

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Markintosh
Getting back to the EV fire thing, yes they are spectacular, but fires in unattended ICE vehicles are about 10 times more common and can be just as problematic once they get going.

Are they about 10 times more common because there are 10 times greater number of ICE cars on the road. I would think there are a lot more ICE vehicles than 10 times the number of electric vehicles…

No, he’s referencing the rates. For a given amount of vehicles, ICE cars are much more frequently likely to catch fire.

Could you share where these statistics are available? I’d like to read more about this. It seems counterintuitive to me. Thanks.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2024 04:55PM by Cary.

This has been hashed and rehashed. The bottom line is that it doesn't matter if EVs are only a fraction of fires or even if they are less likely to catch fire. The reason it all matters is that the fires burning for hours and hours mean that fire departments will not be able to go to other calls. Once EVs are more widely adopted, I predict that some sort of excise or insurance fee will be assessed to make up for the necessary time to extinguish said conflagration, unless there's a real technology breakthrough in the field.

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High on a threshold yearning to sing
Down with the dancers having one last fling



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2024 05:11PM by mrbigstuff.

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Cary
Caron’s Jax, I’m generally not nervous about any vehicle catching fire, and I’m not anti EV. I am considering buying one.

Having said that, you can’t ignore the fact that putting out a lithium ion battery fire is very different than putting out a gasoline fire, and more difficult. Hence the concerns with lithium ion batteries (much smaller ones) on airplanes.

Didn’t say you were anti-EV, just that this is an anti-EV myth that’s common on the internet. And like you, I'm not nervous about an ICE or EV in my garage. Also, no one is saying putting out a battery fire is different or more difficult than a gas one. But what I am saying is for the most part it doesn’t matter, because by the time you notice either in your garage, it’s already too late. You better evacuate, your house is gone. But the fact that your EV is orders of magnitude LESS LIKELY to catch fire to begin with, means an EV is the more sensible choice if this sort of thing worries a person.

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Cary

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Carnos Jax

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Cary

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Markintosh
Getting back to the EV fire thing, yes they are spectacular, but fires in unattended ICE vehicles are about 10 times more common and can be just as problematic once they get going.

Are they about 10 times more common because there are 10 times greater number of ICE cars on the road. I would think there are a lot more ICE vehicles than 10 times the number of electric vehicles…

No, he’s referencing the rates. For a given amount of vehicles, ICE cars are much more frequently likely to catch fire.

Could you share where these statistics are available? I’d like to read more about this. It seems counterintuitive to me. Thanks.

We discussed this in another thread before. I think if you google the terms EV fire rate or something like that will yield tons of results.

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Cary
Hence the concerns with lithium ion batteries (much smaller ones) on airplanes.

No more a concern than the fire risk from jet fuel. A properly designed system is just as safe, if not safer. One of the biggest killers in aircraft accidents is post-accident fire and smoke. You won’t have this issue with an electric aircraft. Smaller general aviation planes will be the first to benefit from electrification. The number of deaths will go down in an appreciable manner.

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mrbigstuff
This has been hashed and rehashed. The bottom line is that it doesn't matter if EVs are only a fraction of fires or even if they are less likely to catch fire. The reason it all matters is that the fires burning for hours and hours mean that fire departments will not be able to go to other calls. Once EVs are more widely adopted, I predict that some sort of excise or insurance fee will be assessed to make up for the necessary time to extinguish said conflagration, unless there's a real technology breakthrough in the field.

I'm tempted to think, that because the number of residential vehicle related fires will drop significantly once we transition to EVs, that the number of calls to such fires will be so infrequent, that it won't even figure into fire departments call availability.

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Cary
Caron’s Jax, I’m generally not nervous about any vehicle catching fire, and I’m not anti EV. I am considering buying one.

Having said that, you can’t ignore the fact that putting out a lithium ion battery fire is very different than putting out a gasoline fire, and more difficult. Hence the concerns with lithium ion batteries (much smaller ones) on airplanes.

There have been some bad fires here in NYC due to eBike and eScooter battery fires.

---

My life goes smoothly and in regular intervals

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ka jowct

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Cary
Caron’s Jax, I’m generally not nervous about any vehicle catching fire, and I’m not anti EV. I am considering buying one.

Having said that, you can’t ignore the fact that putting out a lithium ion battery fire is very different than putting out a gasoline fire, and more difficult. Hence the concerns with lithium ion batteries (much smaller ones) on airplanes.

There have been some bad fires here in NYC due to eBike and eScooter battery fires.

Cheaply made eBikes and eSchooters I'm guessing will do that, as you don't hear much about such spontaneous (i.e. not due to an accident or immersion) incidents with Teslas (can't speak for other makes though).

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ka jowct

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Cary
Caron’s Jax, I’m generally not nervous about any vehicle catching fire, and I’m not anti EV. I am considering buying one.

Having said that, you can’t ignore the fact that putting out a lithium ion battery fire is very different than putting out a gasoline fire, and more difficult. Hence the concerns with lithium ion batteries (much smaller ones) on airplanes.

There have been some bad fires here in NYC due to eBike and eScooter battery fires.

Many buildings are banning ebikes and eScooters due to the number of fires and injuries/fatalities. Same goes for a lot of college campuses.

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Carnos Jax

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ka jowct

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Cary
Caron’s Jax, I’m generally not nervous about any vehicle catching fire, and I’m not anti EV. I am considering buying one.

Having said that, you can’t ignore the fact that putting out a lithium ion battery fire is very different than putting out a gasoline fire, and more difficult. Hence the concerns with lithium ion batteries (much smaller ones) on airplanes.

There have been some bad fires here in NYC due to eBike and eScooter battery fires.

Cheaply made eBikes and eSchooters I'm guessing will do that, as you don't hear much about such spontaneous (i.e. not due to an accident or immersion) incidents with Teslas (can't speak for other makes though).

Haven't heard about it with their cars. Their larger power storage systems (commercial version of the Power Wall or whatever they call it) have had several really serious fires. These are a nightmare to extinguish.

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macphanatic

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Carnos Jax

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ka jowct

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Cary
Caron’s Jax, I’m generally not nervous about any vehicle catching fire, and I’m not anti EV. I am considering buying one.

Having said that, you can’t ignore the fact that putting out a lithium ion battery fire is very different than putting out a gasoline fire, and more difficult. Hence the concerns with lithium ion batteries (much smaller ones) on airplanes.

There have been some bad fires here in NYC due to eBike and eScooter battery fires.

Cheaply made eBikes and eSchooters I'm guessing will do that, as you don't hear much about such spontaneous (i.e. not due to an accident or immersion) incidents with Teslas (can't speak for other makes though).

Haven't heard about it with their cars. Their larger power storage systems (commercial version of the Power Wall or whatever they call it) have had several really serious fires. These are a nightmare to extinguish.

From what I remember, almost all fires involving Tesla Megapacks were due to external factors, not the batteries/cells themselves.

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Carnos Jax
Also, no one is saying putting out a battery fire is different or more difficult than a gas one.

Is there a typo here? Because isn't that exactly what is being said, that putting out a battery fire is more difficult? There's a video of a Tesla burning underwater for heaven's sake! (Because li-ion fires create their own oxygen). [www.youtube.com]

Yes, water to put out these fires is not a great idea. Large fire "blankets" to smother an EV fire...that's what saved the house in the OP's video.

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“Live your life, love your life, don’t regret…live, learn and move forward positively.” – CR Johnson
Loving life in Lake Tahoe, CA

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Gareth

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Carnos Jax
Also, no one is saying putting out a battery fire is different or more difficult than a gas one.

Is there a typo here? Because isn't that exactly what is being said....

Yes, typo, mean't to insert the word "not" somewhere in there.

Some pretty good data in this article from the Guardian [www.theguardian.com].

The current available data shows EVs to are considerably safer than ICEs with regard to fire, but there are some issues that still concern me.

As the EV penetration into the market increases can we be confident that manufacturers and regulators will establish and maintain adequate safety standards?

When the current crop of EV's begin to age out and cheaper replacement batteries become widespread will there be an impact on the safety stats?

When we ramp up production of lithium batteries by several fold will that have safety and/or environmental consequences?

Even if the fire risk is much less the cost and expertise needed to extinguish an EV fire is much greater. Is the fire risk to an EV higher when it is being charged? How many owners charge them inside a garage?

Wonder when the fire departments are going to charge for those fire blankets. Plus the tow and storage fees.

Just saw a post on reddit about a guy whose house was burned down by a malfunctioning Black & Decker tool battery. Everybody has those now, in multiples. How many houses have they burned down?

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macphanatic

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ka jowct

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Cary
Caron’s Jax, I’m generally not nervous about any vehicle catching fire, and I’m not anti EV. I am considering buying one.

Having said that, you can’t ignore the fact that putting out a lithium ion battery fire is very different than putting out a gasoline fire, and more difficult. Hence the concerns with lithium ion batteries (much smaller ones) on airplanes.

There have been some bad fires here in NYC due to eBike and eScooter battery fires.

Many buildings are banning ebikes and eScooters due to the number of fires and injuries/fatalities. Same goes for a lot of college campuses.

[www.swarthmore.edu]

Due to safety concerns, small motorized vehicles, including e-scooters, hoverboards, and e-skateboards, are not permitted for use on campus. The use, storage, and charging of these lithium battery-powered devices on Swarthmore College property is prohibited.

E-bike batteries that are detachable from e-bikes are not permitted to be charged inside campus buildings.

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[www.youtube.com]

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decay

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macphanatic

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ka jowct

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Cary
Caron’s Jax, I’m generally not nervous about any vehicle catching fire, and I’m not anti EV. I am considering buying one.

Having said that, you can’t ignore the fact that putting out a lithium ion battery fire is very different than putting out a gasoline fire, and more difficult. Hence the concerns with lithium ion batteries (much smaller ones) on airplanes.

There have been some bad fires here in NYC due to eBike and eScooter battery fires.

Many buildings are banning ebikes and eScooters due to the number of fires and injuries/fatalities. Same goes for a lot of college campuses.

[www.swarthmore.edu]

Due to safety concerns, small motorized vehicles, including e-scooters, hoverboards, and e-skateboards, are not permitted for use on campus. The use, storage, and charging of these lithium battery-powered devices on Swarthmore College property is prohibited.

E-bike batteries that are detachable from e-bikes are not permitted to be charged inside campus buildings.

People HATE them. It's just an excuse to get what they want.

The tech for putting out the fires already exists. Fire departments are generally implementing training and buying necessary equipment, but it takes time. They will start charging extra for EVs when they start charging to put out non-EV related fires.

Newer battery tech is way better safety-wise, so the issue will take care of itself in time.

You can just let an EV burn if it isn't going to damage anything, so unless it's burning down a house or something, it isn't an issue. The fact people park their gas cars in garages even though they are more likely to burn their house down shows the difficulty putting them out has no more impact (in fact less) on likelihood of houses burning down than what we had before EVs. Why weren't we going nuts before EVs?

I know for a fact Ford Exploders (or was it the Expedition?) had a electrical fault that burned down significant numbers of houses. The fix was disabling the cruise control permanently. Why did people just accept that as reasonable? It's crazy what people get used to. Plus, I can't find a thing about the Ford cars now, and I know it happened because a relative dealt with the recall. Is it some sort of conspiracy? I can't find any mention of it on the web? Idk.

Lastly, if gas cars in garages burn down more houses (per capita) than EVs, that should reduce insurance rate (repair costs may mean they are still higher, etc.). More importantly, my car insurance is not higher for EVs, and there is no restriction related to charging in my garage. I asked and the only issue is that if a non-certified electrician installs the charger, they may deny coverage. FUD, FUD, FUD, FUD. Isn't it fun?

Yup, some people eat FUD like it’s a delicacy.

Somewhere between strident EV evangelists and Luddite opponents of change lies a sensible middle ground. I don't think we're there yet.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/17/2024 01:44PM by Wags.

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kj

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decay

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macphanatic

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ka jowct

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Cary
Caron’s Jax, I’m generally not nervous about any vehicle catching fire, and I’m not anti EV. I am considering buying one.

Having said that, you can’t ignore the fact that putting out a lithium ion battery fire is very different than putting out a gasoline fire, and more difficult. Hence the concerns with lithium ion batteries (much smaller ones) on airplanes.

There have been some bad fires here in NYC due to eBike and eScooter battery fires.

Many buildings are banning ebikes and eScooters due to the number of fires and injuries/fatalities. Same goes for a lot of college campuses.

[www.swarthmore.edu]

Due to safety concerns, small motorized vehicles, including e-scooters, hoverboards, and e-skateboards, are not permitted for use on campus. The use, storage, and charging of these lithium battery-powered devices on Swarthmore College property is prohibited.

E-bike batteries that are detachable from e-bikes are not permitted to be charged inside campus buildings.

People HATE them. It's just an excuse to get what they want.

Maybe. However, the insurance companies are pushing this by either raising rates or restricting coverage for fires/losses resulting from these devices. Too many of these scooters and bikes have batteries that are crappy or are manufactured in facilities with poor QA/QC.

At some point, if the industry doesn’t regulate itself, the government will have to step in.

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macphanatic

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kj

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decay

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macphanatic

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ka jowct

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Cary
Caron’s Jax, I’m generally not nervous about any vehicle catching fire, and I’m not anti EV. I am considering buying one.

Having said that, you can’t ignore the fact that putting out a lithium ion battery fire is very different than putting out a gasoline fire, and more difficult. Hence the concerns with lithium ion batteries (much smaller ones) on airplanes.

There have been some bad fires here in NYC due to eBike and eScooter battery fires.

Many buildings are banning ebikes and eScooters due to the number of fires and injuries/fatalities. Same goes for a lot of college campuses.

[www.swarthmore.edu]

Due to safety concerns, small motorized vehicles, including e-scooters, hoverboards, and e-skateboards, are not permitted for use on campus. The use, storage, and charging of these lithium battery-powered devices on Swarthmore College property is prohibited.

E-bike batteries that are detachable from e-bikes are not permitted to be charged inside campus buildings.

People HATE them. It's just an excuse to get what they want.

Maybe. However, the insurance companies are pushing this by either raising rates or restricting coverage for fires/losses resulting from these devices. Too many of these scooters and bikes have batteries that are crappy or are manufactured in facilities with poor QA/QC.

Except they aren't. I'm fine if they restrict coverage because someone installed a charger by themselves, with too small gauge wire, etc, or require a certified electrician to increase the odds it's done correctly. They're not going to refuse to insure houses that have a charger in them.

And the next generation of batteries (which are already in use) won't have any of this. This particular doomsday is not going to happen, sorry.

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Carnos Jax
At some point, if the industry doesn’t regulate itself, the government will have to step in.

If the industry can make money selling them, they'll fix the problems. Apple had burning batteries (mine was replaced on their dime a hundred years ago) and they fixed the problem because it made sense to fix it. Maybe the gov't required it? I'd don't remember, but it wasn't the end of laptops.

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Wags
Somewhere between strident EV evangelists and Luddite opponents of change lies a sensible middle ground. I don't think we're there yet.

It's actually not the middle ground that's correct. I've had two people imply today that it's too bad I can't get around in the cold. I am getting around in the cold, everywhere I need to go, in our EVs, so it's not somewhere between our views.

I'm not a radical EV evangelist, I just have two of them and they work great. They are not better in every way, but they are better on the whole than any ICE car I've had. No, I can't make it to Minneapolis in 20hrs. without stopping. I can't pull a horse trailer. The tires do wear out faster. But on the whole, they are a poopton better than ICE for me, and my needs are not unusual.

^^^This

You can just let an EV burn if it isn't going to damage anything, so unless it's burning down a house or something, it isn't an issue.

yes, because fire departments leave the scene of these fires and routinely let fires burn themselves out. ok.

not saying this is a rampant issue at the moment, but it will become an issue as millions more EVs are on the road.

and, to the point of "gee, houses burn down, too!" vs cars, FDs treat them a little, uh, differently. a car is disposable and not a means of shelter.

---

High on a threshold yearning to sing
Down with the dancers having one last fling

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Wags
When we ramp up production of lithium batteries by several fold will that have safety and/or environmental consequences?

the ramping up of lithium production makes me think that EV is NOT the future long term. It's the stepping stone on the way to Star Trek-like efficiency.

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kj

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macphanatic

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kj

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decay

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macphanatic

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ka jowct

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Cary
Caron’s Jax, I’m generally not nervous about any vehicle catching fire, and I’m not anti EV. I am considering buying one.

Having said that, you can’t ignore the fact that putting out a lithium ion battery fire is very different than putting out a gasoline fire, and more difficult. Hence the concerns with lithium ion batteries (much smaller ones) on airplanes.

There have been some bad fires here in NYC due to eBike and eScooter battery fires.

Many buildings are banning ebikes and eScooters due to the number of fires and injuries/fatalities. Same goes for a lot of college campuses.

[www.swarthmore.edu]

Due to safety concerns, small motorized vehicles, including e-scooters, hoverboards, and e-skateboards, are not permitted for use on campus. The use, storage, and charging of these lithium battery-powered devices on Swarthmore College property is prohibited.

E-bike batteries that are detachable from e-bikes are not permitted to be charged inside campus buildings.

People HATE them. It's just an excuse to get what they want.

Maybe. However, the insurance companies are pushing this by either raising rates or restricting coverage for fires/losses resulting from these devices. Too many of these scooters and bikes have batteries that are crappy or are manufactured in facilities with poor QA/QC.

Except they aren't. I'm fine if they restrict coverage because someone installed a charger by themselves, with too small gauge wire, etc, or require a certified electrician to increase the odds it's done correctly. They're not going to refuse to insure houses that have a charger in them.

And the next generation of batteries (which are already in use) won't have any of this. This particular doomsday is not going to happen, sorry.

I’m referring to e-bikes and e-scooters. There’s lots of fire data supporting the concern.

FUD and FUD what is FUD

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Black
FUD and FUD what is FUD

Fear, uncertainty, doubt.

I had to look it up as well. Hard to keep up with all these acronyms. Part of getting old, I guess

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mrbigstuff
You can just let an EV burn if it isn't going to damage anything, so unless it's burning down a house or something, it isn't an issue.

yes, because fire departments leave the scene of these fires and routinely let fires burn themselves out. ok.

not saying this is a rampant issue at the moment, but it will become an issue as millions more EVs are on the road.

and, to the point of "gee, houses burn down, too!" vs cars, FDs treat them a little, uh, differently. a car is disposable and not a means of shelter.

Again, fire departments are buying the equipment to deal with ev fires, and training fire fighters. And new battery tech is a lot less likely to burn. The single motor Tesla already uses the LFP batteries which are a lot less likely to catch fire, and this will continue to get better, quickly.

Plus, not that we need to make firefighters busy, but I used to work next to a fire station, and they'd sometimes go a month without fighting a fire. They're not exactly slammed.