What is wrong with this picture? (courtesy of gasbuddy.com)



Look at the divergence between crude oil and gas prices. Gas is at an all-time high in Michigan--higher than the post-Katrina blow up. The "experts" are saying the reason is supply and demand. They say the demand is up because summer driving season is beginning. Yet there is no shortage of gas. No lines at gas stations, and none are out of gas. How can they justify higher gas prices at the same time crude oil prices are dropping?

Gas prices rise 10, 15, 20 cents a gallon at the drop of a hat. But they never seem to drop more than a few cents at a time. They claim the price spikes are based on oil commodity futures but that is a speculated price months in the future, and has nothing to do with the gas sitting in the station's or refinery's storage tanks.

I have had about enough.

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AllGold
I have had about enough.

So walk.

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Seacrest

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AllGold
I have had about enough.

So walk.

I do. And I'm pretty sure I use less gas than most people in this country.

What's your point?

Notice how your nifty chart leaves out that we do not burn crude oil in our engines?
Gasoline comes from refineries.... many of which have been down for their twice-yearly change over from the "winter blend" of gasoline, to the "summer blend"..
Mandated by many states (including California, where I am).


You're welcome to quit using it if you don't like the price.

---

Paul F.
-----
A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.
--

--

--
Eureka, CA

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AllGold

Quote
Seacrest

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AllGold
I have had about enough.

So walk.

I do. And I'm pretty sure I use less gas than most people in this country.

What's your point?

Then why should you care about gas prices?

I know why he should care. Jesus.

Gas prices affect the total economy of our country. From cost of goods, transportation, services and personal expenses.

Come on.

"Nee wah cho dolo ha ha ha!"



*Translation: "I will eat your young!"

Quote
decocritter
I know why he should care. Jesus.

Gas prices affect the total economy of our country. From cost of goods, transportation, services and personal expenses.

Come on.

And yet, the sheeple of this country can't seem to grasp that stagnant supply, stagnant refinery capacity, and globally increased demand equals higher prices... and keep refusing to upgrade the supply, or accelerate improved efficiency...

We, as a nation, deserve what we get at the pump. We're too stupid to actually address the problem; Drill some more wells, build some more refineries, AND continue pushing for higher efficiency vehicles.

---

Paul F.
-----
A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.
--

--

--
Eureka, CA

Quote
AllGold
They claim the price spikes are based on oil commodity futures but that is a speculated price months in the future, and has nothing to do with the gas sitting in the station's or refinery's storage tanks.

Oil futures DO take refining capacity and current inventory into account. Its a sure bet that if refineries were at half capacity and tank farms were overflowing that gas prices would be on the cellar floor...or does no one remember the late 80s or mid 90s? But reality is that demand for gas has increase due to 1) a growing US population and 2) that population owning more cars that ever. There is no way that demand can be satisfied since no new U.S. refineries have been take online since 1976. 1976! Any idea how bigger the U.S. population is now than in 1976, yet production capacity has not grown by a single tankload since Jimmy Carter was president.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/07/2007 03:32PM by Chupa Chupa.

Chupa Chupa;

AND don't forget that nearly half a BILLION Chinese and Indians have started driving in the last 15 years... drawing from the same oil reserves that we are.

---

Paul F.
-----
A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.
--

--

--
Eureka, CA

Some thanks has to go to all those who drive those gas guzzling SUVs. Are you one?

>>We're too stupid to actually address the problem

Yup. We're too busy thinking about "cultural issues" like whether young women should be vaccinated against cervical cancer.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/07/2007 03:49PM by mattkime.

Go back to gasbuddy and extrapolate that chart out 5 years.
The price of crude is up.

Or look at the same time period for last year, or any of the last 26 years.
Demand goes back down in September.
Unfortunately, demand for heating oil then goes up.

If you put those graphs in the same units, you'll see that crude oil sells for only about $1.50/gallon, and the big drop in crude oil prices you show is equivalent to less than a 10 cent per gallon change. This is like complaining about the price of beer going up when the cost of buying water dropped.


Hey, those gas prices are way cheap anyway. We're almost at $4/gal in sunny California, and last time I was in England it was around $6/gallon.

---

"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/07/2007 03:58PM by davester.

And, even with all the "shortages" and "problems" the oil companies are posting record profits - no, there is NO price gouging going on!

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Paul F.

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decocritter
I know why he should care. Jesus.

Gas prices affect the total economy of our country. From cost of goods, transportation, services and personal expenses.

Come on.

And yet, the sheeple of this country can't seem to grasp that stagnant supply, stagnant refinery capacity, and globally increased demand equals higher prices... and keep refusing to upgrade the supply, or accelerate improved efficiency...

We, as a nation, deserve what we get at the pump. We're too stupid to actually address the problem; Drill some more wells, build some more refineries, AND continue pushing for higher efficiency vehicles.

Or just invade a sovereign oil-rich nation. That'll work.

Sorry to tell you but the last time gas was this high Crude was sitting at $75/barrel. It's off
again today at $61.47/barrel. Wait until you see the profit margin of big oil for this quarter.
Just months ago when I was paying $2.05/gal Crude was $50/barrel. Starting to see the
picture?

>AND don't forget that nearly half a BILLION Chinese and Indians have started driving in
the last 15 years... drawing from the same oil reserves that we are.

and 20 million illegal Aliens in this country. That's were a lot of our increase in usage has
come and the fact they drive the biggest, trappiest vehicles they can find.

---

Grateful11

>and last time I was in England it was around $6/gallon.

Here we go with the England thing again. Maybe this would have something to do with that.



I don't know how valid this formula is but in normal times it's about right.

$/BBL of Crude/42 + $ref/gal + $dist/gal + $profit/gal + $tax/gal= $/gal of gasoline

Where:
$/BBL Crude = current price of crude (about $62.00 right now)
42 = number of U.S. gallons in a barrel (BBL) of crude oil
(no it isn't 55 gallons. That's in a drum, not a barrel. There's a difference)
$ref/gal = cost of refining a gallon of gasoline ($0.06)
$dist/gal = cost of distributing a gallon of gasoline ($$0.13)
$tax/gal = State and Federal Tax per gallon of gasoline ($0.51 in NC).
$profit/gal = profit to station per gallon of gasoline ($0.03 to $0.05).

Basically all you need right is this:

---

Grateful11

Have you priced milk lately?

[futures.tradingcharts.com]



Commodity Futures Chart Selection Menu
[futures.tradingcharts.com]

>>Have you priced milk lately?

Go back a bit further and you'll see that low milk prices pushed many farmers out of business. Production lowered and now demand is rising against supply.

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mattkime
>>Have you priced milk lately?

Go back a bit further and you'll see that low milk prices pushed many farmers out of business. Production lowered and now demand is rising against supply.

Cows and milk supply are going bye-bye around here.

[www.latimes.com]

These are the same sheeple (nice one Paul) that have made Gates a billionaire. They'll buy software that's inherently defective, skin creams & 'Beauty Potions' that do nothing ($8 Billion per annum), buy $5 coffee drinks like there is no tomorrow, and pay tolls to drive on a highway their fuel taxes have already paid for.

Why aren't people bitching about the profits made by M$, telecoms/cable co., or credit card companies?

Glad I took Mr. Buffet's advice many, many years ago and bought oil industry stocks! [www.berkshirehathaway.com]

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Panopticon
Why aren't people bitching about the profits made by M$, telecoms/cable co., or credit card companies?

Too busy trying to figure out how they're going to pay for the Million Dollar McMansion when their Interest-only, Option-ARM, Alt-A mortgage resets.

Higher gas prices will ultimately be GOOD for this country because it will push the next administration (not this one of course -- they're simply not reality-based!) to DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE PROBLEM.

I live about two miles from where I work, as does my wife. So please -- set gas prices as high as you like! Eventually the people and business community will REVOLT against the oil companies and their enablers (coughCHENEYcough) and something better will become popular.

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chas_m




[crawlingfromtheusa.blogspot.com] <-- Moving to Canada blog

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incognegro
Have you priced milk lately?

who cares? I don't drink 23 gallons of milk every 2 weeks.

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JEBB
Some thanks has to go to all those who drive those gas guzzling SUVs. Are you one?

I don't own a SUV, but I think the whole SUV gas guzzler issue is somewhat of a
non-sequitur. The avg. SUV gets about 15 MPG. Compare that with the station wagon my mom carted my brother and I around in during the '70s which got 7 MPG. 7! When I was in high school I drove a '70 Cutlass that got about 10 MPG. 10! The fact is the cars our parents drove were 2x the gas guzzlers as SUVs. People have to haul their families around in something. The SUV (and crossovers) are just the station wagon of yore w/ 2X better fuel efficiency. They are not the problem. The lack of a coherent and realistic energy policy is the problem.

Nationalize the robbing oil companies.
Just the threat will result in the gas prices dropping off a cliff.

This would never have happened during a Democrat administration but with stupid as a rock Bushie in the White House the oil companies think they have bought everybody. Maybe they have.

Complain to your US reps in Congress. We are getting ripped off plain and simple.

just a question, for Chas and STL,

Which party has consistently voted against more drilling off of Alaska, California, and Florida? Cough, Cough.....

Which party has drafted and enacted legislation restricting the building of new refineries? Cough, Cough...

Which President has actually helped to promote an alternative fuel? Cough Cough...

If you are reality based, then how do you blame Bush or Cheney?

Oh, and when you write your rep in Congress, tell them you want oil wells drilled and refineries built. That is reality.

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Bryan
______________________________________________________
Mac Studio 2022
MacBook Pro 14 inch 2021
iPhone 14 Pro
Location: Cincinnati

me thinks this would and will continue to happen in every administration.
There is no difference in one or the other when it comes to petrol.
Petrol is the root of everything on the planet.

Drive less, walk more, use public transit, get use to getting screwed and/or buy oil stock.
Ain' nuthin' - nuthin' - gonna change until the kind of $ we have spent in the mid east skirmish is spent on real research into alt energy.
Alt energy, not energy efficiency.

until then - tequila!!!

---

!#$@@$#!

proofraed by OwEn the c@t.



Nobody remembers their first download, but everyone remembers their 1st LP.

Thanks Grateful - last time gas prices were this high was the end of last summer when oil prices were in the $75-80 price range and we had just survived an easy hurricane season. With oil at $61 barrell right now, $3.20 gasolene is ridiculous. Time to buy some oil stock I guess!

Now, let's throw in a couple refinery fires and a hurricane - we'll be paying $5 a gallon in no time!

I'm all for reducing our dependency on oil and I recognize that there is no way we will reduce our demand (by improving efficiency and exploring alternative fuels and alternative transportation methods) unless gas prices become painfully high.

Honestly, the price of gas is not creating a problem for me personally--because I don't use that much. However, I feel for the people who find themselves between a rock and a hard place because they have to drive (too far) to work (and in a gas-guzzling vehicle they can't afford to replace with a more fuel-efficient model).

My problem is mostly with the the lack of correlation between crude oil and gas prices. My secondary beef is with the record profits of the oil companies. I consider them to be essentially an unregulated monopoly. Sure, it's not just a single company, but it seems pretty obvious that there is price collusion. They seem to be free to set their gasoline prices and profits to whatever they want with little regard for oil prices. There is not a single oil company but there is no actual price competition, and the public has NOWHERE ELSE to turn for their product.

By the way, whatever milk costs per gallon, no one is complaining that the dairy farmers are getting rich. Plus there is actually competition with milk. It's always on sale at one of the supermarkets. With gas, all the stations carefully watch each other and set their prices within a few cents of each other. There are NEVER sales on gasoline.

Besides, if I don't like like the price of milk, I can just buy my own cow. Sure, it's not very practical if you live in the city, but it's still a lot more practical than drilling my own oil well and refining my own gas.

It's amazing that someone always has to throw in the Gas Prices in England and the Milk
card everytime this subject comes up. I know all to well what is happening to Dairy farmers,
My wife and her father tearfully sold off their milking herd in '04. Basically pushed out by
low prices as in $12/100lbs., high fertilizer, high fuel and high feed prices. I was sad day to
see them go after a continuously running Dairy was shut down after nearly 60 years.
No milk prices don't come into play so much when most people only drink a gallon or two
per week. The only way to stay afloat in the Dairy business is the expand to over 500 cows
or go Organic.

>competition with milk.

Wrong again, maybe on the grocery shelf but not for the farmers. Milk prices are set by a
group in Wisconsin, it's not traded like a commodity.

---

Grateful11




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/07/2007 09:06PM by Grateful11.

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vicrock
And, even with all the "shortages" and "problems" the oil companies are posting record profits - no, there is NO price gouging going on!

agreed

Quote:
incognegro
Have you priced milk lately?

who cares? I don't drink 23 gallons of milk every 2 weeks.

double agree

I know why he should care. Jesus.

Gas prices affect the total economy of our country. From cost of goods, transportation, services and personal expenses.

also agree

--

even if there were 5000 people on this forum and we all agreed gas was too much and we all called our congressperson, nothing would happen

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Edited 999 time(s). Last edit at 12:08PM by jdc.

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Panopticon
These are the same sheeple (nice one Paul)

Sheeple is a gun afficianado's vernacular.

[en.wikipedia.org]

"The term has also come to be used to describe hoplophobes and other similar persons - people with an illogical fear of weapons, fire, cars, machinery etc, and certain other things such as men in camouflage or ethnic minorities. In this sense it is used particularly amongst gun and knife enthusiasts."

[tinyurl.com]

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Paul F.
And yet, the sheeple of this country can't seem to grasp that stagnant supply, stagnant refinery capacity, and globally increased demand equals higher prices... and keep refusing to upgrade the supply, or accelerate improved efficiency...

We, as a nation, deserve what we get at the pump. We're too stupid to actually address the problem; Drill some more wells, build some more refineries, AND continue pushing for higher efficiency vehicles.

very well said, we don't do enough in this country as far as using more fuel efficient vehicles...

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AllGold
The "experts" are saying the reason is supply and demand. They say the demand is up because summer driving season is beginning.

Yeah, that's why they dropped about a dollar (to $2 nationwide) within 2 weeks of Election Day, and climbed back up weeks after. I mean, nobody drives during Election Day Season, right?

And here in California, we're enjoying prices $.45-.65 higher than when I was in New York last week, and they're blaming "unusual refinery problems for the Spring." But at other times theey'll try to tell you that local prices are NOT tied to the local refineries, because everything is shipped...

Yeah. Gotta love the "free market."

>build some more refineries

They just closed a perfectly good one last year in CA. Hmmm, I wonder why they would do that?
Then they whine and b!tch about not being able to open a new one in CO because of tree huggers..
It was lies in the 70's and it's lies now.

---

Grateful11

Quote
Fritz
Drive less, walk more, use public transit, get use to getting screwed and/or buy oil stock.
Ain' nuthin' - nuthin' - gonna change until the kind of $ we have spent in the mid east skirmish is spent on real research into alt energy.
Alt energy, not energy efficiency.

until then - tequila!!!

Pretty much right on, Fritz.

It always bothers me when a politician talks abouit less dependence on foreign oil, when they should be talking (well, hopefully not just talking) about less dependence on oil.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/09/2007 11:25AM by Joey Cupcakes.