We always fly Alaska Air first class. The airplanes are small and first class isn’t really much to write home about except for my back thanks me as we land. Saturday we flew in a 737MAX and while I certainly kept my seatbelt on the entire time…it was nice! The seats were more comfortable, there was more space between the seats, the overhead bins were designed to give at least a perception of more space, and it was noticeably quieter (I didn’t even use my noise canceling headphones). Overall I was pleasantly surprised.

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Ukulele music I couldn't find anywhere else.
[colquhoun.info]

I've probably been on them dozens of times by now. Definitely nicer than the previous 737 models for coach.

Roughest landing I ever had was on one. If I could avoid them, I would.

I've been on several Southwest flight on that plane. Better seats and built in USB power at every seat are definitely a win. The pleasant lighting was also a nice touch.

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“Live your life, love your life, don’t regret…live, learn and move forward positively.” – CR Johnson
Loving life in Lake Tahoe, CA

Doubtful a rough landing was due to the aircraft, rather was likely weather or crew technique.

I was on a Max8 3 hours ago. Pleasant all around and charged my phone off the USB in the seat in front of me.

Flew on one last week. Nice enough but then I really don't pay that much attention as it is just a seat for a couple hours.

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Flew on one for the first time on Wednesday. I was comfortable, aisle seat in coach. IAD-DEN. The overhead bins are tall enough that the carry-on bags can be turned sideways.

The new bins are much better (more bags) and the MAX is significantly quieter.

Do the new MAX planes need more speed when landing? Seems like we were going significantly faster than normal.

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Ukulele music I couldn't find anywhere else.
[colquhoun.info]

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davemchine
Do the new MAX planes need more speed when landing? Seems like we were going significantly faster than normal.

It's funny that you ask this question, as i was walking near to our airport yesterday and watched dozens of planes come in at almost twice the speed of others. Since I'm not a plane spotter, I could not say which models, but it was very noticeable.

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High on a threshold yearning to sing
Down with the dancers having one last fling

Note that the 737max is nothing new since it has been flying since 2017 and is basically a re-engined 737NG which has been flying since 1993, which is itself a redesigned 737 which started flying in 1968. Boeing received a lot of criticism for sticking with this ancient design that now has some major flaws due to trying to patch bigger engines onto a 737 instead of going to a more modern airframe thereby creating an inherently unstable aircraft.

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"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2024 10:13AM by davester.

I took some time to read about landing speeds this morning and the short answer is that the MAX does land faster. Most seem to attribute it to increased weight without increased wing size. Others note the longer body and risk of “tail strike” at lower speeds. Apparently these planes have an auto throttle that can be used during landing but it isn’t recommended so a pilot may land faster just to factor in safety. I’m no pilot but it’s interesting.

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Ukulele music I couldn't find anywhere else.
[colquhoun.info]

I certainly kept my seatbelt on the entire time


I've done this since my second flight, as a result of the first.

I sleep on airplanes, answering the call of Morpheus moments after wheels up, especially if I'm unfortunate enough not to score a window seat.

I hate being awakened to fasten my seat belt.

All of my flying was done when there were meals, soda, and snacks served, so I'd ask the attendant early on to wake me when appropriate, as I'd otherwise be sleeping.

I would wake at the fasten seat belts advisory when we were on approach, so I paid attention to some landings.

There were a few that were sooo smooth passengers applauded.

'Scoring' landings was fun for me.

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We will remember them.

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davester
...thereby creating an inherently unstable aircraft.

Um, No. It is not inherently unstable, it just has a mode where if the pilots are unaware of a malfunctioning system, that can input control signals that will lead to rapid descent under some conditions. What it does have is an automated control that should have included redundancy on its inputs, and pilots should have been better informed of its existence and methods of overriding or turning off that control.

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RAMd®d
I sleep on airplanes, answering the call of Morpheus moments after wheels up, especially if I'm unfortunate enough not to score a window seat.

I'm so jelly! I'm almost never able to sleep on a plane.

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It is what it is.

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JoeH

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davester
...thereby creating an inherently unstable aircraft.

Um, No. It is not inherently unstable, it just has a mode where if the pilots are unaware of a malfunctioning system, that can input control signals that will lead to rapid descent under some conditions. What it does have is an automated control that should have included redundancy on its inputs, and pilots should have been better informed of its existence and methods of overriding or turning off that control.

In other words, inherently unstable.

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Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.

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Speedy

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JoeH

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davester
...thereby creating an inherently unstable aircraft.

Um, No. It is not inherently unstable, it just has a mode where if the pilots are unaware of a malfunctioning system, that can input control signals that will lead to rapid descent under some conditions. What it does have is an automated control that should have included redundancy on its inputs, and pilots should have been better informed of its existence and methods of overriding or turning off that control.

In other words, inherently unstable.

As an aerospace engineer, let me clear this up. No modern commercial airliner is allowed to be inherently unstable according to regulations. The 737 Max is not inherently unstable. It is in fact very stable. This is a minor detail and is not always correctly reported in the news. The confusion arises from the fact that the Max has slightly less stability than the previous generation 737. However, it is still positively stable (stability can be quantified in terms of a number, with positive or negative values, a negative being unstable). And in order to maintain the same type rating as previous 737’s, Boeing had to give the Max the same feel as previous 737’s, and so had to incorporate an MCAS system to address this slight difference in stability. So it’s still plenty stable, just slightly less so than previous versions of the 737. And commercial airplanes are allowed to have varying degrees of stability, so long as they meet a minimum value (of which the Max is well above).

Thank you for that edification, Carnos. So, you have no qualms flying on a 737Max? If there were a choice between aircraft, which would you choose today?

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High on a threshold yearning to sing
Down with the dancers having one last fling

Absolutely ZERO qualms. Given the choice I’d prefer the Airbus A320neo family, only because they’re slightly more roomy. But even there I wouldn’t fret none about being on a Max.

I looooove any variant of 737 that SW has in service.
(because Midway is so damn easy to get to)

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Speedy

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JoeH

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davester
...thereby creating an inherently unstable aircraft.

Um, No. It is not inherently unstable, it just has a mode where if the pilots are unaware of a malfunctioning system, that can input control signals that will lead to rapid descent under some conditions. What it does have is an automated control that should have included redundancy on its inputs, and pilots should have been better informed of its existence and methods of overriding or turning off that control.

In other words, inherently unstable.

The F-16 and other modern high performance fighter jets are inherently unstable.

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The design also emphasizes low cost in procurement, in operation and support, and in provisions for growth. The F-16 introduced many successful technologies. Fly-by-wire and relaxed static stability gave the F-16 a quantum leap in air combat capability over other fighters when it was introduced and this technology still makes the aircraft an unmatched competitor today. The F-16 disproved the adages that bigger was better, that a lot of capability had to be expensive, and that sophisticated systems rarely worked.

[www.codeonemagazine.com]

The F-16 may have been inherently unstable, but the fly by wire system corrected for that. Stability and maneuverability are opposite sides of the same coin. The more stable an aircraft, the more difficult it is to maneuver.

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Carnos Jax

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Speedy

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JoeH

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davester
...thereby creating an inherently unstable aircraft.

Um, No. It is not inherently unstable, it just has a mode where if the pilots are unaware of a malfunctioning system, that can input control signals that will lead to rapid descent under some conditions. What it does have is an automated control that should have included redundancy on its inputs, and pilots should have been better informed of its existence and methods of overriding or turning off that control.

In other words, inherently unstable.

As an aerospace engineer, let me clear this up. No modern commercial airliner is allowed to be inherently unstable according to regulations. The 737 Max is not inherently unstable. It is in fact very stable. This is a minor detail and is not always correctly reported in the news. The confusion arises from the fact that the Max has slightly less stability than the previous generation 737. However, it is still positively stable (stability can be quantified in terms of a number, with positive or negative values, a negative being unstable). And in order to maintain the same type rating as previous 737’s, Boeing had to give the Max the same feel as previous 737’s, and so had to incorporate an MCAS system to address this slight difference in stability. So it’s still plenty stable, just slightly less so than previous versions of the 737. And commercial airplanes are allowed to have varying degrees of stability, so long as they meet a minimum value (of which the Max is well above).

What he said. Many fighter jets are (deliberately, or in some cases due to Stealth architecture) dynamically unstable, corrected with fly by wire. Passenger airliners emphatically are not.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2024 07:54AM by Will Collier.