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Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: volcs0
Date: September 02, 2007 11:14PM
[newsite.michaelrighi.com]

I think this is a very interesting read.

In short, he refused to let the CC employee look through his bag, and the employee wouldn't let him leave. So the man called the police. When the police asked him for his license, he refused and got himself arrested.

My reaction to first seeing the headline (on Fark) was "what a dumbass - look at all the trouble he cause himself." But after reading his account, I'm rooting for the guy...
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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: Craig
Date: September 02, 2007 11:23PM
As for not opening the bag or showing a receipt- I am in complete agreement. I never stop when the alarm goes off or if I have to wait in a line for a receipt check. I am waiting for the day that someone physically tries to stop me from leaving (in essence kidnapping) because I won't stop at the door and let them search my personal property. As for showing your license to a cop, you pretty much have to do it or risk getting hauled in to confirm your identity.


Craig

PS- I didn't RTFA.
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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: slbett
Date: September 02, 2007 11:45PM
I had a similar thing happen at an old store called Sun Appliances. I paid for my items and walked 20 feet to the door. Alarm went off and I turned around to go back to register. Two different cashiers at the register I went through said no, go ahead, It's been going off all day. Now from over 150 feet away a security guard who was talking to some girl nowhere near the door came running up and stopped me at the door as I was now leaving. Wanted to see the bag and told me stop where I was. Still the cashiers told him it was OK. He then said he has to check and that I was lucky I was still in the store or I He would have called the police. I said fine call the manager right now and I made the biggest and loudest scene I could at the front of the store as I returned my $300 plus purchase on the spot. Told manager I will never be back and will tell everyone I know how I was treated. I also sent a registered letter to the security company and Sun with the guards first name, the store's name and copies of the receipt, both purchase and return. Never went back and also never got an apology. Only the manager at the time said the guard wasn't employed by Sun.
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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: mikebw
Date: September 03, 2007 12:02AM
You are my hero.

Quote
slbett
...I made the biggest and loudest scene I could at the front of the store as I returned my $300 plus purchase on the spot. Told manager I will never be back and will tell everyone I know how I was treated. I also sent a registered letter to the security company and Sun with the guards first name, the store's name and copies of the receipt, both purchase and return. Never went back and also never got an apology. Only the manager at the time said the guard wasn't employed by Sun.
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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: SDGuy
Date: September 03, 2007 12:11AM
Sorry - not much sympathy here - what a friggin' dumbass. So people look for trouble, then act surprised when they get it.
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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: Dennis S
Date: September 03, 2007 12:27AM
I get really belligerant with store people in a hurry if I feel they are being asses, but I bow and scrape when the police are involved.
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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: Seacrest
Date: September 03, 2007 12:44AM
Quote
SDGuy
Sorry - not much sympathy here - what a friggin' dumbass. So people look for trouble, then act surprised when they get it.

I agree.
I mean, the nerve of that guy, actually PAYING for something and expecting to walk out of the store with it unmolested, then COMPLYING WITH THE LAW when the cop he calls comes to his aid.
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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: Craig
Date: September 03, 2007 12:48AM
Quote
SDGuy
Sorry - not much sympathy here - what a friggin' dumbass. So people look for trouble, then act surprised when they get it.

IMHO, you sir are the friggin' dumbass. It's people like you who are willing forfeit your freedom, bend over and take it without even questioning authority (or the abuse thereof.) It is sad that people view someone exercising their lawful and constitutional rights as "look(ing) for trouble." I suggest you brush up on your world history to fully comprehend how damaging that type of thinking can be to a free society. He may just be one guy in one specific situation, but overall there are much bigger issues at stake here.

I read the article and I respect the guy for not letting himself get pushed around. People are always so quick to say that if you aren't doing anything wrong then you don't have anything to worry about. Well, this guy didn't do anything wrong yet trouble came looking for him.


Craig

Oh, and the charges will be quickly dropped as soon as an ADA reads the arrest report.
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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: SDGuy
Date: September 03, 2007 01:00AM
Quote
Craig
It's people like you who are willing forfeit your freedom, bend over and take it without even questioning authority (or the abuse thereof.)

No - it's a matter of picking your battles. Some people walk around with a chip on their shoulder, then wonder why it gets knocked off sometimes. Having to show a store receipt when exiting a store hardly rates as an epic civil rights case.
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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: mikebw
Date: September 03, 2007 01:13AM
But the problem becomes people who don't know what their rights are anymore in a situation like that. If security becomes too prevalent people may assume it should be that way and not give thought to their rights.
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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: Seacrest
Date: September 03, 2007 01:16AM
Quote
SDGuy
Having to show a store receipt when exiting a store hardly rates as an epic civil rights case.

This may be true, but that doesn't mean this guy is a "dumbass" for standing up for himself (and the rest of us) on principle. If more people stood against this kind of tyranny, the less likely they'd be apt to try these kinds of tactics. And if we don't draw the line on what we will endure now, they will continue to ramp up these little assaults on our freedoms until we don't even remember what it was like not to be raked over the coals.

I personally find the practice just slightly annoying, but the effect it's had on me is that I rarely -- if ever -- shop at those stores anymore. I'd rather buy the item I need online, even if it means I have to wait a few days for it.

It would be nice if there were more local stores that offered what these big, monolithic, impersonal stores offer. I think I would gladly pay a little more if it meant I was treated like a "customer" and not a "potential thief" every time I dared to give them my hard-earned money.





I am not Ryan Seacrest, and I do not approve this message.
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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: Craig
Date: September 03, 2007 01:28AM
Quote
SDGuy
No - it's a matter of picking your battles. Some people walk around with a chip on their shoulder, then wonder why it gets knocked off sometimes. Having to show a store receipt when exiting a store hardly rates as an epic civil rights case.

I would like to understand your thoughts on this a little better.

Do you believe that any person has the right to open and inspect your personal property just because they want to? This man exchanged currency for a material good. At the point that the transaction concluded he was the lawful owner of the goods. Period. Why should he have to prove that he owns something just because someone asks? Should store owners have the right to open bags, purses, or wallets? Open your trunk? Go through your vehicle? Come to your house and ask for a receipt? Should they have the right to kidnap you without even a suspicion that you committed a crime? The laws regarding probable cause for detaining someone for shoplifting are pretty clear:

1. You must see the shoplifter approach your merchandise
2. You must see the shoplifter select your merchandise
3. You must see the shoplifter conceal, carry away or convert your merchandise
4. You must maintain continuous observation the shoplifter
5. You must see the shoplifter fail to pay for the merchandise
6. You must approach the shoplifter outside of the store

(Notice, that not stopping at the door is no where in that list.)

You may not see this as an epic civil rights battle, but you could say the same thing about someone sitting at a lunch counter and ordering a meal or sitting in a different seat on a bus. Sometimes, the small things are the most important.


Craig
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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: pipiens
Date: September 03, 2007 01:55AM
In my view Craig is 100% right.
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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: SDGuy
Date: September 03, 2007 02:36AM
Methinks this topic is getting in danger of being pushed to the other side, but here goes:

Quote
Craig
Do you believe that any person has the right to open and inspect your personal property just because they want to? This man exchanged currency for a material good. At the point that the transaction concluded he was the lawful owner of the goods. Period. Why should he have to prove that he owns something just because someone asks?

I don't think that just "any person" was involved here - it was an employee of the store. The reason they have the right to ask to see a receipt? Well, the laws likely vary from State to State (I doubt very much that interstate commerce is involved), but in California, the Penal Code reads:
490.5 (f) (1) A merchant may detain a person for a reasonable time for the purpose of conducting an investigation in a reasonable manner whenever the merchant has probable cause to believe the person to be detained is attempting to unlawfully take or has unlawfully taken merchandise from the merchant's premises.

Quote
Craig
Should store owners have the right to open bags, purses, or wallets?
Bags - yes. Purses - probably. I've seen quite a few "purses" that looked more like carry-on luggage than anything else. Wallets - I can't see that. Doesn't seem reasonable.

Quote
Craig
Open your trunk? Go through your vehicle?
Nope - anything outside the perimeters of the store - leave to the police.

Quote
Craig
Come to your house and ask for a receipt? Should they have the right to kidnap you without even a suspicion that you committed a crime?
Now you're just being silly...

Quote
Craig
You may not see this as an epic civil rights battle, but you could say the same thing about someone sitting at a lunch counter and ordering a meal or sitting in a different seat on a bus. Sometimes, the small things are the most important.

Lunch counters and buses - I believe those involved discriminatory action, based on a person's ethnicity. Now - if a store was routinely stopping customers based on race or creed, or continuously stopping a particular customer that'd be different. That didn't seem to be the case here. The original blogger made no such claim. He simply felt it was his right not to show a receipt. I have a feeling he won't win that one. All of the events which followed were a direct result of the path he decided to take.

Yes - he was in the right - it's not required to carry identification in the U.S., except when driving. (at least according to "The Rights/Responsibilities of Citizens and Police", which I received from the San Diego Police Department around 10 years ago, and keep in my wallet). This is where the dumbass part comes in - he created this situation - taking a stand over showing a receipt when exiting a store. If it was something more substantial, the sympathy-o-meter would be reading higher. It's hard to have sympathy for people, when they choose to create the situation they're in.
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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: vision63
Date: September 03, 2007 02:42AM
According to Costco, they just want to make sure I'm getting what I paid for.
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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: RgrF
Date: September 03, 2007 03:20AM
This guy (Michael Righi) is a gadfly. I like gadflies, it's Flys I can't stomach.



"Who's more foolish - the fool or the fool that follows him?" - Obi Wan Kenobi
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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: September 03, 2007 03:49AM
Everybody does and will comply with Costco's policy or they don't become/remain a member. It's a compromise made, however unwillingly.

The key in Righi's situation is the phrase "whenever the merchant has probable cause". In most criminal cases, the basic test is what the "reasonable and prudent man" do or think.

This is in line with Craig's enumerated points. There must be actions or activity that would make a reasonable and prudent man believe a crime has been committed. Of course the details may vary from state to state.

According to the narrative given, the store employees didn't have reason to believe a crime was committed. At this point, Righi only appears to have violated store policy. Policy set outside of criminal law is usually a civil case.

When the good guys first opened here in CA, there were monitors that checked the outgoing customers' receipts. They soon disappeared. On occasion they would be present at the exits, but no longer checked your documentation.

The two CC's I frequented never had that policy.

In CA as in most states, one must identify themselves to a peace officer (as defined in the CA Penal Code) on demand, but a verbal response satisfies that requirement.

A CDL is required to be presented on demand when one operates a motor vehicle requiring a license, but not as a pedestrian. The concept of a National ID has met with tremendous resistance.

I'd say that this guy could have easily picked a better battle. Rather than involving children and dad, he could have simply come back at another time. He said he regretted his siblings seeing the incident, but it was his choice and those repercussions would be between father and son, etc.

I don't know about specific states and there are almost always exceptions, but "kidnapping" would be a big stretch. More likely a lesser charge such as false imprisonment would apply.

My money is on some of the members of the Brooklyn OH PD getting a lesson in civil rights violations, regardless of the outcome of Righi's situation.

What happens to the store employees would be of interest as well. They may have acted in good faith, but not necessarily within the law. In OH, do they have the right to detain a customer merely for the purpose of checking the shopping bags as they exit? (Detaining a "shoplifting" suspect is a given.)

They did not arrest him or have him arrested, so they've probably dodged a big bullet there.

This could indeed become a big deal, escalating to a higher court decision, possibly on both issues.






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All you can do, is all you can do.

There’s trouble — it's time to play the sound of my people.

Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

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Everybody counts or nobody counts.

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all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

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by believing all possible evil of evil men.

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And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: Chupa Chupa
Date: September 03, 2007 07:32AM
The guy is a little uninformed, and I wouldn't be too surprised if he staged this for attention. Whatever the case the guy sure feels self important. A regular Nelson Mandela, I tell ya.

1) The ID law he sites is intended for witnesses, not suspects.
2) the 4th amendment (AKA search and seizure) only applies to the gov't. A store is private property. Different rules. When you go into almost any retail store they have a sign up somewhere, at the entrance, at customer serivice,etc. that informs the customer the store reserves the right to search any and all bags.
3) By being so hard nosed he has and continues to waste pubic resources and $, AND he has the nerve to ask for donations. Let's see here. Donate money to someone who has truly had their rights squashed, or give money to this guy who brought it on himself. Heck, he even called the police himself.

Unfortuately, if the cop didn't Mirandize him he'll go free. Too bad. I wouldn't mind a judge slapping a few hours of community service on his tail for being such a jerk and wasting everyone's time. Moral of the lesson: when a store clerk asks for a rec't and you paid for the item, just show the dang reciept. It's a frickin reciept, not your bank statement.
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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: Panopticon
Date: September 03, 2007 07:50AM
The rules for police verifying your identity changed on June 21, 2004. The U.S. Supreme Court upheld a Nevada law requiring compliance with police requests for a persons identity. Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of the State of Nevada, 03-5554 [www.csmonitor.com] [www.cnn.com]
Quote
CNN -
Monday's ruling was a follow up to a 1968 decision that said police may briefly detain someone on reasonable suspicion of wrongdoing, without the stronger standard of probable cause, to get more information, according to a report from The Associated Press. Justices said that during such brief detentions, known as Terry stops after the 1968 ruling, people must answer questions about their identities. *{ea}*

Justice Kennedy summed it up "...In the ordinary sense a police officer is free to ask a person for identification without implicating the Fourth Amendment.".

In 2004, 21 states had an 'Provide ID Law'.

So, CC loses on this one {really bad for PR}, but the local PD would appear to be OK
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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: Gutenberg
Date: September 03, 2007 07:54AM
Bingo Chupa. Most of this boils down to the difference between throwing your tantrum on public property or throwing it on private property. Mr. Righi sounds like a professional nitpicker.
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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: karsen
Date: September 03, 2007 08:21AM
I always hate having to wait in line to get my receipt checked at the Sam's Club exit. I've often stood in line wondering if all this checking was legal and if I should just make a break for the door.
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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: macnut
Date: September 03, 2007 08:25AM
If you are a lawyer, worked for a retail establishment or managed one, you know how touchy "false arrest" is. A store can be sued big time over it. Most store owners are aware of this and train their personnel accordingly, usually advising them to refrain from overstepping rather than risking a huge lawsuit.
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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: Grateful11
Date: September 03, 2007 08:26AM
I don't care how you feel about this situation, I see far worse laws broken everyday. Yes I
know all about our rights as citizens of the great United States and all that but all this over a
stinking receipt and bag contents. Our CC doesn't look through bags when leaving but if they did I'd let
them look. Sam's does it every time I leave, which is very seldom because I hardly ever go
in there anymore. I've got mixed feelings about the whole thing. If all you have in the bag is
exactly what you purchased then CC already knows what you have just purchased so why
not let them look?



Grateful11
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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: RgrF
Date: September 03, 2007 08:37AM
From Little acorns great chestnuts grow. It's exactly this sort of exertion of rights at a street level that checks unwarranted government power. If you think the police should be able to police without restriction that's fine.

Most of us don't believe that and drawing the line is the issue. We are tending more and more toward acceptance and obedience than exertion of rights. If the trend continues most rights will simply cease to exist.

If that's what you want well you don't have to do anything really because that's the direction the train is heading. If you think this needs to be checked, then you have a long tough uphill struggle to get back to where we once were.

If you don't care well then it doesn't really matter does it?

What did they say Nicole Richie did yesterday? No. You're kidding - she didn't - tell me more.



"Who's more foolish - the fool or the fool that follows him?" - Obi Wan Kenobi
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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: September 03, 2007 08:44AM
Where CC overstepped in my opinion is chasing him outside and detaining the car.

Inside the store - sure they can request and examine the bag ands receipt. But outside is adifferent story. I know several large retailers that tell employees tthat a shoplifter outside the store is a police matter - get a tag and description, then let the police handle it.

That is what CC should have done.



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.” -- François de La Rochefoucauld

"Those who cannot accept the past are condemned to revise it." -- Geo. Mathias

The German word for contraceptive is “Schwangerschaftsverhütungsmittel”. By the time you finished saying that, it’s too late
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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: h linamen
Date: September 03, 2007 08:54AM
I will gladly show my receipt or allow a bag to be checked if it means preventing shop lifting. Such theft drives the prices up for all of us. Personal freedom should not bow in favor of dishonest practices. I also get upset with occasional forum discussions bragging how someone got a "steal" because of an error on the part of the merchant. What happened to honesty and cooperation in our country?

When an alarm goes off at the merchants door, there is probable cause to check to see that all items were paid for, not heisted. That is not an infringement of personal freedom. Yes, perhaps you paid and the item wasn't disarmed, but what about the many others who are actually stealing and thereby driving up our costs?
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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: MacMagus
Date: September 03, 2007 09:00AM
> Justice Kennedy summed it up "...In the ordinary sense a police officer is
> free to ask a person for identification without implicating the Fourth
> Amendment.".

The Court also said that it wasn't covered under the 5th Amendment, but they didn't deal with a specific application of the 5th AND 6th Amendments.

There was no decision as to the implications of the right to counsel, nor of the time frame during which the detainee must present his real name or ID (note that the SCOTUS did not decide the issue of the legality of laws that require the production of ID, just of the one law that requires you to disclose your real name upon questioning by the police in Nevada).

I wonder, what would happen if you invoked your 6th Amendment right in this manner:

"Officer, I am cooperating with you and I intend to give you my name and produce my ID after I have been presented with legal counsel to fully understand the extent to which such an act would compel me to bear witness against myself in contravention of the 5th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution."

It seems to me that if they detain you long enough for you to consult with counsel then your detention has moved from a Terry stop to a full-fledged arrest. At that point, the police would be obligated to show probable cause and would not be allowed to use your failure to produce your name and ID against you because you'd invoked your right to counsel and the 5th Amendment. Thus, state laws requiring that you disclose your identity would be mooted in this context.

Note: This is not a legal opinion, but mere speculation. It should in no way be treated as legal advice. smiling smiley
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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: Fritz
Date: September 03, 2007 09:05AM
yes, an adult all his life spending money in a few stores I'm sure, he suddenly goes off his rocker and decides he shouldn't show his receipt on this purchase.
The only place I show my receipt, as mentioned above, is CoscCo, because it's part of the deal, lame as it is there too.
Can't most people walk out of the favorite supermarket with a bag of groceries and have someone else "deliver" an additional purchase?
Do you think your groceries should be re-itemized after passing thru checkout?

He wasn't driving, so he isn't required to show his license.

Mike is right, except for the fact that CC is a nasty store to it's employees and should be boycotted til bankruptcy.

But if you think that one purchase should be inspected, then all should so that we are all protected from the likes of common thieves.

If CC wants to see receipts, then spell it out like CostCo does.

The officer is a bonehead and changed his story as to the reason of arrest showing that he knows nothing of the law (like many police in rural areas). Even the local ORD that he sites is a bunch of gibberish.

In all likelihood, if MIkes gets a "decent" lawyer, both CC and the officer will get a wake up call. If not, CC will get plenty of bad publicity and the cop will get off because local "judges" don't pass the blue line for "small" infractions.

If you're in favor of this kind of treatment here in the US, then let's invite Alberto back.

Could Mike have been smarter? Sure.

The true waste of time was the cop. He should have asked the CC'ers if they saw or suspected shoplifting and described the incident as they imagined it, complete with a car full of family.
At that point, an intelligent human probably would have dropped it.

Everyone involved on one side had to show what it is they get paid for.

Soon we'll all be carrying rolling movie cameras with us to record our daily lives to prove our rights before they get taken away.



!#$@@$#!

What if the hokey pokey really is what it’s all about?

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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: RgrF
Date: September 03, 2007 09:07AM
Invoke that at a street level and the results are a slam dunk. Arrested for resisting.



"Who's more foolish - the fool or the fool that follows him?" - Obi Wan Kenobi
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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: RgrF
Date: September 03, 2007 09:25AM
Quote
RgrF
Invoke that at a street level and the results are a slam dunk. Arrested for resisting.

That was a late response to Magus' post about the reception a street cop gives to anyone quoting anything.



"Who's more foolish - the fool or the fool that follows him?" - Obi Wan Kenobi
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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: karsen
Date: September 03, 2007 10:03AM
Just spoke with my wife about this. She's a manager at a home improvement type store. She said they are told it's illegal to detain anyone. They are allowed to ask someone if they can check their bag, and if the person refuses there's nothing they can do beyond that. If the alarm buzzer sounds at the door they can ask the person to stop, but if that person chooses not to, there's nothing they can do.
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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: comaplate
Date: September 03, 2007 10:18AM
My favorite lame excuse Costco posts is that their hall monitors are posted to ensure that we are not overcharged on items.

After having read the original story, I'd say the guy was right on target until he started messing with the cop.

While the office who responded clearly wasn't on top of any laws that might apply to the situation, I'd say a good course of action would have been to comply with the officer's request and then file a complaint with his supervisor. After all, the original issue was the manager from Circuit City, and the officer could have easily resolved that dispute and had the kid on his way -- if anything, I think the kid let the officer distract him from the original point.

Interesting to see that the kid will be pressing charges against the Circuit City manager...
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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: pRON aHOLIC
Date: September 03, 2007 10:55AM
Quote
karsen
I always hate having to wait in line to get my receipt checked at the Sam's Club exit. I've often stood in line wondering if all this checking was legal and if I should just make a break for the door.


It's my understanding that shopping clubs such as sam's and Costco are allowed to do this because you agree to it when you sign up for membership.



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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: DaviDC.
Date: September 03, 2007 11:55AM
Reading comments to a thread such as this is easy to tell who is willing to bed over & spead 'em wide simply because some one told him to & those who are willing to stand up to petty bull@#$%&.



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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: pRON aHOLIC
Date: September 03, 2007 12:02PM
The CC lackey chasing someone out the store leaves CC open for a lawsuit if the employee got shot or beat up. In my brief retail experience it was told to me never to chase anyone out the store. The loss of an item was never worth more than a life or a lawsuit. A shot CC employee and settling a lawsuit would also result in higher prices.



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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: Bill in NC
Date: September 03, 2007 01:03PM
No need to argue or call the cops.

You can bet the store manager/dude working the door/any other employee would have quickly gotten out of the way had the car kept coming towards them.

Give 'em a friendly wave as you go by. smiling smiley



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/03/2007 01:04PM by Bill in NC.
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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: September 03, 2007 01:04PM
Quote
DaviDC.
Reading comments to a thread such as this is easy to tell who is willing to bed over & spead 'em wide simply because some one told him to & those who are willing to stand up to petty bull@#$%&.

Exactly was I was thinking as I read this.



It is what it is.
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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: September 03, 2007 01:44PM
From Little acorns great chestnuts grow...

Great post.

I agree with Fritz that the officer screwed up. He got distracted as well. He didn't establish whether or not a crime was committed, or whether or not the store employees had reason to believe a crime was committed.

Righi did *identify* himself, but the officer wanted to see his DL. The officer could detain him and ask further questions about his identity, but that doesn't *seem* to include requiring him to show his papers, please.

Store employees should never leave the store to chase down a thief let alone a *customer* who's transgression was to violate store policy. Too many good people get hurt-- shot, stabbed, or beaten doing so. I would rather pay more because "one got away" then have some well-meaning employee hurt, or sanctioned by management (it happens) for risking their life.

The PD will try to spin their actions the best way they can, just as 99% of you would, had you made as error in judgement.

The store will follow suit.

I don't know that bowing to discretion and later filing a complaint would have exacted a strong message to the PD. Yes, it ties up some resources but had they really been needed elsewhere, the officer would never have been detailed.

An arrest in itself does not require a Miranda warning. That speaks to custodial interrogation, TV not withstanding. I'm betting that asking/requiring/demanding a person identify themselves does not constitute interrogation in the eyes of SCOTUS and the Miranda decision. It's often required that you do inform someone the reason they're being stopped/detained/arrested, though.

Otherwise, we have no indication at this point that the officer questioned him about his activities (with or without focusing on him as a suspect). When Righi did not present a DL, things went south, and that could have happened well before conditions requiring the warning existed.

Righi is a gadfly and may well be a professional nitpicker (his site is fairly nice) but I think (from what's been presented) that he's in the right. I won't be donating, but he's near sainthood compared to "how do I beat a ticket" nitpickers.

If my local CC suddenly start requiring the "checking" of *all* bags, then I make the decision to shop there or not. If it's a surprise to me discovered only as I exit, then it's time to make another decision. (Dennis S-- GREAT post. <still laughing>.)


And I don't care if you see "far worse" laws broken every day. That doesn't mean we *should* throw the little guy under Rgr's train.

We all want to be safe. At what price is the question. Where does it end is the next obvious question, or should be. I want to be considered innocent until... you know. I like not having to justify routine actions to *anybody*. When do you get to say "ENOUGH!" When you're *told* you can?

IF we ALL submitted to routine and random stops on whims, there is NO doubt that more criminals would be caught, drugs and guns discovered, wanted felons and parole violators arrested. And maybe if cameras installed in ALL rooms of ALL buildings, even more crime would be detected and prevented.

But that's absurd. Nobody wants that, and that would never happen. Yet the principal exists, and is demonstrated on a smaller scale daily.

Already we take our shoes off to get on a plane. Seems reasonable, right? What about a guy who must submit to an in depth search of person (not a cavity search), questioning, and hand search of his luggage because he has the same name as somebody on the TSA's No Fly list, even though they know he is not the same guy!? It's not all that different. It's about being treated as guilty until *you prove* otherwise, or worse- the presiding authority dismisses you.

So really, I don't care what you've seen; we've all seen "far worse", and some of us have seen worse than that.






I am that Masked Man.

All you can do, is all you can do.

There’s trouble — it's time to play the sound of my people.

Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

I've been to the edge of the map, and there be monsters.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody counts or nobody counts.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

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An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: pRON aHOLIC
Date: September 03, 2007 03:02PM
Anyone feel like calling Santura and Joe Atha, the CC employees involved, to hear their side of it? I bet CC will look into this and ask the employees why the heck they tried to stop a car. The liability for their safety is on CC's head if they don't have a policy telling their employees not to chase someone out of the store.

Brooklyn Store #3575

7349 Northcliff Avenue
Brooklyn, OH 44144
Tel: (216) 749-5960



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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: Jimmypoo
Date: September 03, 2007 03:14PM
humor gone. See post below.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/03/2007 03:24PM by Jimmypoo.
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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: pRON aHOLIC
Date: September 03, 2007 03:18PM
Quote
pRON aHOLIC
Anyone feel like calling Santura and Joe Atha, the CC employees involved, to hear their side of it? They could at least blog about it. I bet CC will look into this and ask the employees why the heck they tried to stop a car. The liability for their safety is on CC's head if they don't have a policy telling their employees not to chase someone out of the store.

Brooklyn Store #3575

7349 Northcliff Avenue
Brooklyn, OH 44144
Tel: (216) 749-5960



-------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: Jimmypoo
Date: September 03, 2007 03:24PM
On reading the guy's site, and interest in such that follows, I, persoonally, hope he crucifies them all.

I have done and will do the same thing in similar situations. And when those fail, Joe and his pal at CC would have been recipient of the one truth - that being, that violence is the universal language.

There are many out there who don't seem to know that. There are others who don't realize how lucky they were to not have learned it first hand.
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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: Craig
Date: September 03, 2007 03:52PM
It is the common fate of the indolent to see their rights become prey to the active. The conditions upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance; which condition if he break, servitude is at once the consequence of his crime, and the punishment of his guilt. -John Philpot Curran

When liberty is taken away by force it can be restored by force. When it is relinquished voluntarily by default it can never be recovered. -Dorothy Thompson

The liberties of our country, the freedom of our civil Constitution, are worth defending at all hazards; and it is our duty to defend them against all attacks. We have received them as a fair inheritance from our worthy ancestors: they purchased them for us with toil and danger and expense of treasure and blood, and transmitted them to us with care and diligence. It will bring an everlasting mark of infamy on the present generation, enlightened as it is, if we should suffer them to be wrested from us by violence without a struggle, or to be cheated out of them by the artifices of false and designing men. -Samuel Adams
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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: sscutchen
Date: September 03, 2007 04:38PM
I think he's got too much time on his hands.

That said, since he's willing to spend the time, I'm pulling for him big time.





Don't ask who the bell's for, dude. It's you.
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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: Monster
Date: September 03, 2007 06:25PM
I've been in retail management before, NYC at the Manhatten , KB Toys, years ago.
When we used to catch someone shoplifting there were several things we would do, sometimes we would call mall security, and if we asked them to ensure the guy never came back then they would usually teach him a lesson, sometimes we would take him into the back hallways and do it ourselves, in the process taking everything he had with him at the time,
When it was a kid we would sometimes call security and let them deal with it however they see fit, id the kid was a real @#$%& we would take whatever he had (many times things stolen from other stores) and tell him to come back with his parents to pick it up. Only once did a kid come back, and it was with a scalper who hung around the Garden, we knew who the scalper was but thought it was so funny we gave the kid his stuff back, except what he took from us.
One time (not that it has anything to do with shoplifting), the day before Christmas, we were getting ready to close and I had been watching a couple of guys in the store who seemed suspicious (but not in a shoplifting way, there had been several armed robberies in the mall that holiday season), I managed to have another employee call security (many who were off duty cops, or wannabe cops) and about ten of them showed up, they couldn't do anything but they made their presence known, and nothing happened, but it may not of anyway.

I've also been a customer many times and have been asked for my receipt and to look in my bag, I usually just wave them off and say no thanks, after all, I didn't steal anything, my receipt is already in my wallet, and I don't want to have to stand there, what I have is mine and they have no right to inspect it or do anything else unless they have observed me shoplifting, switching price stickers, etc..
I've done it befoer and I will do it again, Iif followed and demanded to stop I will sometimes turn, hold my palm up and warn the person that he/she is very close to breaking the law and that if need be I will defend myself, if they want to call the police then by all means please do so, but I am leaving.

If a police officer were ever to pull me over afterwards then I would comply with them to the fullest, I'm not that stupid.





The Taoist Zhuangzi said, "Good order results spontaneously when things are let alone".
The sociologist, and historian, Adam Ferguson described the phenomenon of spontaneous order in society as the "result of human action, but not the execution of any human design".
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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: AAA
Date: September 03, 2007 06:31PM
I wonder if the founding fathers would have shown a receipt like a pansy ash.
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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: SDGuy
Date: September 03, 2007 07:01PM
Quote
AAA
I wonder if the founding fathers would have shown a receipt like a pansy ash.
Doubtful - then they'd likely be on the receiving end of a round lead ball moving at several hundred feet per second - and gladly so...
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Re: Man arrested at Circuit City after not showing receipt, license
Posted by: mikebw
Date: September 03, 2007 11:34PM
Quote
Monster
... they would usually teach him a lesson, sometimes we would take him into the back hallways and do it ourselves, in the process taking everything he had with him at the time

Yes, this should teach him!


j/k

I agree that he probably should have just shown the officer his ID. Not that he was necessarily required to do so by law, but had he done that he would have been able to tell the CC guys to shove off and would have been on his way.
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