Last night I took a cab home at around 3:30am. We came up behind a car in the middle of the street blocking traffic. It just sat there. The cab driver gets up to see whats going on. The airbags had gone off although there was no further indication of impact. None. The driver was incapacitated - passed out or dead. An older couple was standing on the sidewalk telling the cabbie and i to leave it alone as they had called the cops.

We left since our help obviously wasn't wanted but the second we stepped away I began to wonder. Did the driver need help? The only reason why you wouldn't pull him from the car is because he's dead. Otherwise he should be taken from the car to make sure his vitals are okay and continue to be okay. Still, I'm completely without an explanation for the airbag.

Had I not been drinking earlier in the evening I might have stuck around longer to make sure everything was being handled properly. Unless the driver was dead, which I expect the couple would have stated, the situation was being severely mishandled.

Anyone able to make sense of this? Its one of the stranger things I've been witness to in nyc.

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Actually, you shouldn't move the driver unless the car is on fire, or in other imminent danger.
Spinal cord injuries can be greatly increased by someone who doesn't know how to protect the cervical spine.

A few things... first, an airbag can be setoff by an impact that leaves no clear marks on the car. For example, a direct hit to the bumper can often pop it in far enough to setoff the airbag but then it'll pop back out with only minor marks.

Next, who knows which order things happened in. Maybe the driver passed out and someone rear ended him. Maybe he passed out and hit someone.

Finally, one of the basics of being a first responder is to NOT move the victim unless there is an imminent danger (eg, car on fire.) Checking vitals and all that can be done without moving the victim.

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M A V I C
Next, who knows which order things happened in. Maybe the driver passed out and someone rear ended him. Maybe he passed out and hit someone.

Rear Ending someone does not set off their airbags.
Could have been an electrical issue.
Some airbag equipped cars are approaching a quarter-century old, and older!!

BGnR

---

"Good heavens, Miss Sakamoto! You're beautiful!"
"If we dig precious things from the land, we will invite disaster."
"Near the day of Purification, there will be cobwebs spun back and forth in the sky."
"A container of ashes might one day be thrown from the sky, which could burn the land and boil the oceans."

Caddy offered airbags in '76 I think.
The patents were issued back in'73 AFAIK. I could check at work, the patents are mounted as plaques on the wall in our lobby.

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BigGuynRusty

Quote
M A V I C
Next, who knows which order things happened in. Maybe the driver passed out and someone rear ended him. Maybe he passed out and hit someone.

Rear Ending someone does not set off their airbags.
Could have been an electrical issue.
Some airbag equipped cars are approaching a quarter-century old, and older!!

BGnR

Like I was saying, we don't know what happened to set them off. And a quick google search does show that rear ending someone can setoff airbags.

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Doesn't that give you a sense of something unresolved? One night, my brother and I were driving up a curvy, steep residential road, and came upon a small pickup that was laying on it's top, with the lights still on, in the middle of the road. We stopped and the windows were broken with blood all over one. We looked and yelled over the guard rail, thinking someone might have been thrown over, but finally just decided to continue on. We called the police, but never heard anything about what had happened. I still wonder what actually happened, and if we should have done something more. kj.

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Racer X
Caddy offered airbags in '76 I think.
The patents were issued back in'73 AFAIK. I could check at work, the patents are mounted as plaques on the wall in our lobby.

What were the patents for?
AirBags were invented in the 1950's.
"In 1971, the Ford car company built an experimental airbag fleet. General Motors tested airbags on the 1973 model Chevrolet automobile that were only sold for government use. The 1973, Oldsmobile Toronado was the first car with a passenger air bag intended for sale to the public. General Motors later offered an option to the general public of driver side airbags in full-sized Oldsmobile's and Buick's in 1975 and 1976 respectively. Cadillacs were available with driver and passenger airbags options during those same years. Early airbags system had design issues resulting in fatalities caused solely by the airbags.

BGnR

---

"Good heavens, Miss Sakamoto! You're beautiful!"
"If we dig precious things from the land, we will invite disaster."
"Near the day of Purification, there will be cobwebs spun back and forth in the sky."
"A container of ashes might one day be thrown from the sky, which could burn the land and boil the oceans."

the multi-stage solid propellant gas generators designed to inflate the bags. You can hold a propane torch to them, and they won't light off. The current design and the propellant formulations were designed by us in Redmond.

Most are currently manufactured by ISI or TRW, but we still manufacturer the propellant and hold the patents for the propellant train.

Quote
kj
Doesn't that give you a sense of something unresolved? One night, my brother and I were driving up a curvy, steep residential road, and came upon a small pickup that was laying on it's top, with the lights still on, in the middle of the road. We stopped and the windows were broken with blood all over one. We looked and yelled over the guard rail, thinking someone might have been thrown over, but finally just decided to continue on. We called the police, but never heard anything about what had happened. I still wonder what actually happened, and if we should have done something more. kj.

That reminds me of a time when I was falling asleep at a hotel and heard a large crash. A few minute later we heard someone's voice but couldn't quite tell what the one word they said was. A couple minutes later we heard it again and it was a real faint "help." Our room overlooked the roof of the conference halls and we thought maybe someone had gone out a window and hit the roof. We looked but couldn't see anything.

Then we heard the cry again several minutes later. We kept looking and trying to figure out where it was coming from. We called hotel security and they couldn't find anything. Maybe another hour goes by and I kept trying to figure it out and we heard the cry again. Hotel security was still in our room and they heard it so at least now they believed us.

They aren't allowed to just start entering rooms and didn't want to start knocking and waking people up so late at night. But we noticed the water in the room next to us had been running for a while. They tried to get the manager's permission to enter the room as no one would respond to the repeated knocks at the door.

The manager wouldn't respond, so finally security decided to go ahead and enter. A guy had gotten drunk and had fallen down, crushing the night stand. He was naked and really pissed off when security woke him up. He said he hadn't been crying for help and was not pleased that security had entered.

Other than being severely intoxicated he seemed to be fine (I wasn't in the room, but in the hall, so I don't personally know for sure, just going by what security told me.) The whole event lasted several hours with maybe a half dozen faint cries for help.

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>>Spinal cord injuries can be greatly increased by someone who doesn't know how to protect the cervical spine.

Yes, I'm aware of that. I certainly would have checked the neck (particularly the spinal cord) for injury before moving the victim.

Is the "don't move the victim" rule just for car accidents? I was under the impression that it would be best to have him on his back.

I guess the main thing that confused me was that the couple on the scene were on the sidewalk, not right next to the car. If i was taking care of a situation like that I'd stand right next to the victim until someone else took over.

Also, there wasn't a second car on site. Perhaps they took off - that would be poor form.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2008 04:19PM by mattkime.

Also, how likely is it that he would have had a spinal cord injury if accident impact hasn't been enough to damage a bumper?

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2008 04:18PM by mattkime.

Perhaps the couple were out of the roadway to prevent being hit by another car?

Never move someone, unless in imminent danger, without training and help.
EMTs can immobilize someone in place with flexible backboards and cervical collars.
You could contribute to making someone a quadriplegic if you don't know what you are doing.

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mattkime
Also, how likely is it that he would have had a spinal chord injury if accident impact hasn't been enough to damage a bumper?

A flat??
D minor??

BGnR

---

"Good heavens, Miss Sakamoto! You're beautiful!"
"If we dig precious things from the land, we will invite disaster."
"Near the day of Purification, there will be cobwebs spun back and forth in the sky."
"A container of ashes might one day be thrown from the sky, which could burn the land and boil the oceans."

Quote
mattkime
Had I not been drinking earlier in the evening I might have stuck around longer to make sure everything was being handled properly. Unless the driver was dead, which I expect the couple would have stated, the situation was being severely mishandled.

MattKime, by your own admission you were falling down drunk, three sheets to the wind!!
You sure this even occurred??

BGnR

---

"Good heavens, Miss Sakamoto! You're beautiful!"
"If we dig precious things from the land, we will invite disaster."
"Near the day of Purification, there will be cobwebs spun back and forth in the sky."
"A container of ashes might one day be thrown from the sky, which could burn the land and boil the oceans."

>>Never move someone, unless in imminent danger, without training and help.

I was trained in CPR years ago. I really don't remember the "don't move them" rule. Maybe things have changed? Certainly don't move them if there's a possible neck injury but otherwise I was somewhat certain that they should be flat on their back.

Anyway, guess i should study up.

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mattkime
>>Never move someone, unless in imminent danger, without training and help.

I was trained in CPR years ago. I really don't remember the "don't move them" rule. Maybe things have changed? Certainly don't move them if there's a possible neck injury but otherwise I was somewhat certain that they should be flat on their back.

Anyway, guess i should study up.

Only reason to put them flat on their back is to perform CPR. If they are breathing, then that is not needed. Basic first aid rule is do not move an accident victim unless necessary. Applies to all accidents, not just vehicle accidents.

Guess you should study up on more than just CPR, a basic first aid or first responder course would be a good idea. Sounds like the CPR course just focussed on CPR.

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Quote
JoeH
Basic first aid rule is do not move an accident victim unless necessary. Applies to all accidents, not just vehicle accidents.

Specifically, you shouldn't move someone if you come upon them unconscious with no way of knowing how they got that way.
But you always use common sense and judgement for every situation-- clinging to black and white rules like this is silly and makes for a lot of really brainless argument scenes at accident sites.

Glad to be learning. guess i should brush up on this stuff.

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Quote
mattkime
Glad to be learning. guess i should brush up on this stuff.

Less drink maybe??
More BrainCells will survive!!
My initial First Aid course was in the early sixties, first thing they taught was to not move the victim unless they were in immediate danger.

BGnR

---

"Good heavens, Miss Sakamoto! You're beautiful!"
"If we dig precious things from the land, we will invite disaster."
"Near the day of Purification, there will be cobwebs spun back and forth in the sky."
"A container of ashes might one day be thrown from the sky, which could burn the land and boil the oceans."

Please find out what happened and report back. A post like this leaves us in suspense.

Quote
will2000
Please find out what happened and report back. A post like this leaves us in suspense.

Who is "US"??
You and that mouse in your pocket??

BGnR

---

"Good heavens, Miss Sakamoto! You're beautiful!"
"If we dig precious things from the land, we will invite disaster."
"Near the day of Purification, there will be cobwebs spun back and forth in the sky."
"A container of ashes might one day be thrown from the sky, which could burn the land and boil the oceans."

Quote
Black Landlord

Quote
JoeH
Basic first aid rule is do not move an accident victim unless necessary. Applies to all accidents, not just vehicle accidents.

Specifically, you shouldn't move someone if you come upon them unconscious with no way of knowing how they got that way.
But you always use common sense and judgement for every situation-- clinging to black and white rules like this is silly and makes for a lot of really brainless argument scenes at accident sites.

Of course this is not a "black and white" rule, but it takes a lot more than just a basic first aid or CPR course to know most of the circumstances when it does not apply. And "common sense" will injure or kill many more than it will save in most circumstances, especially when there is no training at all, or training half remembered from years ago. I say this from having taken basic and advanced training, and having everything from EMT's, RN's and others in my circle of friends and family. Yes, you do move where the victim is in danger of fire, drowning or other further injury. But, I know of too many cases where persons moved someone without needing to, and everything from partial to full paralysis or death resulted. Unless you have had the training, I would rather not have someone use just "common sense" to determine when and how to move me if I was in an accident.

P.S. I also know of a number of accidents that have happened, been "gee, that was not too bad", had the person alert, conscious, and moving on their own. Then have them move just a bit and sever their spinal cord in the neck or back due to a fracture. So, even if you know the circumstances, you will not necessarily have any idea of the extent of injuries.

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Naw, I'm interested too.

It takes a fairly narrow set of parameters to set of an airbag UNLESS there is an electrical problem. The initiators just need to see current and voltage above a certain threshold to set it off. then the BKNO3 lights off, then the puck of propellant goes off. Once the initiator lights, no way to stop it. The airbag is inflated in milliseconds.

We had a guy lose part of his finger last year because something wasn't grounded, and a static electricity discharge set off an initiator that was in his hand. Think of an M-80, but the size of a mini marshmallow, with a jet of flame coming out the end about 2-4 feet long.

So there is an epidemic of people having accidents which don't paralyze them, and then as soon as you touch 'em, *snap* goes the spinal cord?
What did they do, set up mobile CAT scanners at accident sites to study this?
You seem to know what you're talking about, up to a point.

Quote
JoeH

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Black Landlord

Quote
JoeH
Basic first aid rule is do not move an accident victim unless necessary. Applies to all accidents, not just vehicle accidents.

Specifically, you shouldn't move someone if you come upon them unconscious with no way of knowing how they got that way.
But you always use common sense and judgement for every situation-- clinging to black and white rules like this is silly and makes for a lot of really brainless argument scenes at accident sites.

Of course this is not a "black and white" rule, but it takes a lot more than just a basic first aid or CPR course to know most of the circumstances when it does not apply. And "common sense" will injure or kill many more than it will save in most circumstances, especially when there is no training at all, or training half remembered from years ago. I say this from having taken basic and advanced training, and having everything from EMT's, RN's and others in my circle of friends and family. Yes, you do move where the victim is in danger of fire, drowning or other further injury. But, I know of too many cases where persons moved someone without needing to, and everything from partial to full paralysis or death resulted. Unless you have had the training, I would rather not have someone use just "common sense" to determine when and how to move me if I was in an accident.

P.S. I also know of a number of accidents that have happened, been "gee, that was not too bad", had the person alert, conscious, and moving on their own. Then have them move just a bit and sever their spinal cord in the neck or back due to a fracture. So, even if you know the circumstances, you will not necessarily have any idea of the extent of injuries.

I'm not sure how matt is going to get this figured out at this point, apart from maybe a lucky hit in google news.

With all the info available, I'd guess the guy had to be passed out drunk, and the bystanders had already confirmed that. Otherwise they wouldn't be shooing you away, not knowing whether you might be a doctor.
Either that or your speech was so slurred when you asked what was going on that they could tell you were falling down drunk and didn't want to deal with you

Until you know otherwise assume that a there is a neck problem. You can stabilize with your hands to prevent turning or other movement until you can clear the possibility or get a improvised collar in place. If there has been enough force involved you can still clear the possibility of neck damage in the field but you really have to know what you are doing.

Working as a Firefighter EMT for over 20 years much of what has been said is good advice.

ABC's, don't move them in less you have to, wait for professional help.

But I would add this.

I have approached countless situations with people in altered level of consciousness in vehicles. You need to be prepared for the unexpected; attempts to drive off, physical confrontation, weapons to name a few. Anything can happen so be extremely careful.

Considering you had been drinking don't beat yourself up over it. You could have made the situation worse for the patient or yourself.

gg

GG's advice is the most informative and helpful.

If there is a odor or leak of gasoline, one would probably be well within black and white/common sense boundaries to remove him.

If I were there an not drunk, I'd have asked who the old folks were to the victim, and check to see if he was alive. And I would have called to see if somebody had already reported the accident. The cabbie could have done that, assuming he hadn't been out drinking with matt.

There are a lot of things to consider. Did the old folks know what they were talking about? The victim could have been rear-ended sending him into a car in front of him, setting off the airbag.

He might not have been wearing his seat belt or the shoulder strap, and the airbag rendered him unconscious.

His breathing might have stopped and he was dying while everyone stood around and wondered WTF.

The old man and woman might have been part of a covert snatch and grab op and were waiting for another vehicle to pick them all up, but it was rear-ended and the driver was rendered unconscious.

Maybe an alien abduction team...

If you don't know what you're doing, "common sense" could overload your canary ass.

---

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Maybe GG can comment on one consideration not mentioned yet.

What if the accident victim is bleeding? Thirty-five years ago friends and I (teenagers) were the first on scene at a car accident. Driver was unconscous and blood was pooling on the seat. Being well trained scouts, we knew not to move him unless he was in danger, so we checked for gas leaking (none). But we knew it was possible he could bleed to death very quickly ( >=1 minute ). Since the pool of blood was only about 6 inches wide and slowly growing, we were going to try to find the source of bleeding without moving him and try to stop it without moving him. But if we had not been successful in a very few minutes, we were planning to move him if necessary to find/stop the bleeding. (As we were just beginning to look for the source of bleeding, three national guard medics showed up and, much to our relieve, took over. After giving them a very brief status report, we left the scene so as not to get in the way. Never did find out what happenned to the guy.)

So GG, what would an EMT do in a situation with bleeding? Were we any where close to the right mix of training and common sense?

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Following the Light of the Sun, we left the Old World ...

Its triage. If there's a indicator that the injured party might bleed out, you do what's necessary to stop that bleed out. Potential spinal injuries make no difference once a person dies.

---

"Who's more foolish - the fool or the fool that follows him?" - Obi Wan Kenobi

You can't be sued for trying to help if you didn't try to help.

No such thing as a stale thread, billb?

seems to be keeping the @#$%& entertained