Right off the bat, you can skip the "buy a Corolla/Yaris/Focus/Civic/Fit/Mazda 3/bicycle" replies. My daughter is more comfortable driving sitting up higher in a vehicle. We've narrowed it down to three possibilities and I'd like to get your opinion on which you think might be better and why.

1) 2007 Hyundai Tucson SE: V6 4WD with about 16k miles.

2) 2008 Hyundai Tucson: 4 cyl. 2 wheel drive - new

3) 2007 Jeep Compass: 4 cyl. 4WD with about 17k miles

All are similarly equipped with automatic transmission, A/C and CD player and for the sake of discussion, figure that they are all available at around the same price point. Thanks.

Does it snow where you live?

wurm,
I found this thread lurking on the "political side" and thought perhaps you might want it moved. I didn't see where McCain or Obama were likely to figure in to your buying decision.

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Roswell, GA (Atlanta suburb)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/2008 08:58AM by rgG.

why does she need AWD or 4wd. I haven't driven either and don't really have an opinion about either. My guess is that the Jeep would be a good choice if she really needs a credible off road vehicle with true 4wd, otherwise, you are giving up a lot in gas mileage and on road comfort and safety.

I have an old (99) rav4. I know you don't want other suggestions, but what about the rav4 in 2wd, since that fits right in the category you are looking in?

Not that she cares all that much about a better overall driving experience, given the choices shown, but something in a similar size/type of vehicle I'd consider if it were my daughter would be a used CR-V, Element or RAV4.

But given those listed choices I'd go with #2 because in my opinion 4WD is highly unnecessary for a GREAT many people. Think good tires, or a second set of wheels and dedicated snow tires and you're better off than with 4WD and crap tires.

Hyundai or Jeep...not exactly good choices.

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Quote
davester
Hyundai or Jeep...not exactly good choices.

My thoughts exactly. It's worth the little extra $ upfront to buy a Honda or Toyota. I would think that a RAV-4 or CRV would be within the same niche, and a LOT less likely to result in your daughter sitting by the road one day waiting for a tow truck.

Oops. Thanks rgG. I must have been checking out threads "over there" and just hit New Topic without thinking.

As for snow, yes, we're in MA and do see a fair amount of snow in the winter. However, we've never really had much of a problem with our front wheel drive vehicles. We're certainly weren't necessarily looking for 4WD. It's just that the two pre-owned that we saw happened to be 4WD. High on the list were the RAV4 and CR-V, but none out there to be found with reasonable mileage. Or if they have reasonable mileage they're priced outrageously.

The new '08 2WD 4cyl. would be more than adequate and I like the idea of brand new with full warranty. Of course, insurance and excise tax (in MA) will be higher. I also have a feeling that 17K is absolute bottom line for the brand new whereas there might be a little more wiggle room on the pre-owned.

Jeebus, I hate car shopping. I may just let my wife and daughter deal with it all.

The Hyundai or Jeep comments were what I had been thinking until I did a little research. I've been reading a lot of reviews and must say I was surprised at how highly they're both rated. Maybe it's specifically the Tucson and Compass respectively, but I've seen far more positive comments than negative on both of them. Yes, as I said we were hopeful on the RAV4 and CR-V but most of the ones we've seen for sale could fit into the "Craigslist dreamer" category.

A RWD SUV acts nothing like a FWD car in the snow. Might want to ask some people in your area that have RWD trucks/SUVs how difficult it is in the winter for them to drive. I know, in Iowa I parked my 2wd truck most of the winter because it wasn't drivable with the snow covered bluffs.

I don't think anybody here has mentioned a RWD vehicle yet. The RAV4 and Tucson come as either FWD or 4WD.

---

"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan

Quote
C(-)ris
A RWD SUV acts nothing like a FWD car in the snow. Might want to ask some people in your area that have RWD trucks/SUVs how difficult it is in the winter for them to drive. I know, in Iowa I parked my 2wd truck most of the winter because it wasn't drivable with the snow covered bluffs.

Are either the jeep or the hyundai RWD? My guess is that the Jeep is full time 4 wd (with a center differential that may lock) and the Hyundai is going to be an AWD system that is a most likely FWD most of the time (most SUVs, including the hondas, are really FWD with reactive computer activated systems to send power to the R when it detects slipping in the front).

I kind of like the look of both the compass and the hyundai. What kind of MPG do they get? I agree that used rav4s and CRVs are totally overpriced. What about the saturn vue?

SUVs have higher centers of gravity coupled with relatively short wheelbases, are inherently less stable than passenger cars. How about a Subaru Outback? Gets her higher off the ground than a Civic/Corolla while still maintaining reasonable chassis dynamics and stability (plus offers good traction in snow).

The 2002 Hyundai Santa Fe we had was probably one of the best cars I ever owned for engineering and reliability. The 2004 Honda Pilot that replaced it was a piece of poop. We needed to trade to get more passenger room. We sold the Pilot after 2 years. Hated it. Poor reliability was a huge issue.

---

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The 2008 Hyundai Tucson has a $2000 higher 5-year cost of ownership than the CRV, according to Intellichoice (calculated at kbb.com); the Jeep has a $1800 less 5-year cost of ownership than the CRV.

But, the deal breaker for me is safety. The CRV is a "Top Safety Pick" at IIHS.org; the Hyundai tests substantially worse and the Jeep has not been tested. There are no Jeeps in the Top Safety Pick in any of the categories, however, so I'd assume it would/will test as average when they get around to it.

I'd spring for the extra and get the CRV. In fact, I did spring for it and got my daughter and my wife each one. That was an expensive day!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/2008 10:17AM by Michael.

I'm surprised by the negative comments on Hyundai. I've read nothing but great reviews on them. Same with Kia.

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M1 2020 Mac mini (16G 2T) • Sonoma 14.x • Dual 27" Dell S2722QC monitors • M2 2022 13" MBAir (512G 16G) •

Hyundai did have a bad rep, for the first decade or so they were available here. But that has been changing over the last decade, and they are very decent quality these days. I have been pondering getting a Hyundai small SUV in a year or two to replace my Sable.

One thing to take into consideration is that Hyundais have a very low resale value. But I look at it like this. The lower resale value is offset by the fact that thgey are thouisands cheaper in the beginning. And that extra several thousand up front is likely money financed, so the total dollar amount is a greater. I'd rather pay less today, and get less 5 years later if I sell it, and not finance that money for 5-7 years. And if you have the money cash, set aside that extra few grand in a CD that keeps rolling over, and use it for repairs years down the road.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/2008 10:34AM by Racer X.

Didn't realize the Tuscon was FWD or AWD. I thought most SUVs were RWD if they weren't AWD or 4WD.

Quote
C(-)ris
Didn't realize the Tuscon was FWD or AWD. I thought most SUVs were RWD if they weren't AWD or 4WD.

Most Mini-Utes are built on a car Front Wheel Drive platform.
I don't know of one that isn't, but knowing this place someone will find some Ukranian built ore hauler that is built on a Russian tank chassis.

BGnR

---

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Hondas and Toyota make terrible used cars - way too expensive. Might as well buy new if you are looking for something newish with low miles.

Hyundais and Kias (have you looked at Sportages - mechanically the same as a Tuscon, I believe) have terrible resale values and make much better used cars, in my book.

BTW the Hyundais/Kias do not come with the 10 year warranty as a used car. The dealer (and other sources) will be more than willing to sell you one though. I think the default warranty is 5 years in that case.

The Compass is not more than a soft road vehicle, not a true offroader. I think the jeep has a "lifetime warranty" for engine and transmission. If so, make sure its transferable.

I would ask what she NEEDS, and go from there. Assuming she needs mild offroading, and the warranty xfers, go w/the jeep. The Compass is identical mechanically to the the Dodge Caliber. If all she wants is tall place to sit, look at a Scion!

Quote
BigGuynRusty

Quote
C(-)ris
Didn't realize the Tuscon was FWD or AWD. I thought most SUVs were RWD if they weren't AWD or 4WD.

Most Mini-Utes are built on a car Front Wheel Drive platform.
I don't know of one that isn't, but knowing this place someone will find some Ukranian built ore hauler that is built on a Russian tank chassis.

BGnR

you know me so well. Half the time when someone makes a statement of fact here, I can find an exception.

Oh, and a Unimog isn't a mini UTE, but I bet I could find something, maybe Chinese or Korean.

Well, I've gotta comment on the "My daughter is more comfortable driving sitting up higher in a vehicle." "Comfort" is a matter of opinion. And in this case, she's picking vehicles that are less safe... what is it about that which makes her more comfortable?

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This forum, going back to dealmac, loves to discuss other people buying cars, but we never reach consensus. This thread does illustrate one truth:

Toyota and Honda's are overpriced as used cars, much like macs. I just don't see the point in buying a used Toyota or Honda for more than what you can get a competitor car for new. Buying one new may make sense, if you have the money, since you then get the benefit of the curve of the high resale value. I should say that I have never understood the logic of buying macs used either, particularly in the post mini era.

Buying cars used that have terrible resale value, like a hyundai, may make sense, since then you, as the used car buyer, get the benefit of the huge discount by buying used. I have never done that myself, since I buy so few cars and keep them forever, but I can see the economic logic of that.

Lots of good comments here. Thanks.

Kia was left out of the equation because there's only one Kia dealer within about 50 miles from us and the dealership pissed us off years ago and we won't go back.

As for "sitting up higher", she's been driving a '94 Corolla and it feels like you're sitting on the pavement. Hell, I can barely get into and out of it comfortsable when I drive it. My wife drives a Tribute, I drive a Forester and my son inherited our old minivan, so whenever she drives any of the other vehicles she feel more in command of the road in terms of visibility and general overview. FWIW, my wife feels the same way. Once you've driven from up a little higher perspective, it's tougher to go back. In terms of safety, the small SUVs we're considering aren't significantly less safe as they're built on a car chassis rather than truck.

She has zero desire to go "off-roading", so any benefit of AWD or 4WD would be in snow (and/or mud after the snow melts).

Take a Compass for a test drive. They're cheap plastic toys -- ugly inside, noisy, bouncy and unstable -- and priced about $4k more than they should be. Once your kid sees the inside of one, she's not gonna be happy with the Jeep.

Dunno about the Tucson. I've been car-shopping -- and specifically looking for a good compact SUV -- for a month, but haven't hit Hyundai yet.


> Kia was left out of the equation because...

I just test drove a couple of Kias. I think they're garbage. Uncomfortable to sit in one for very long. Bad mirrors. Lousy acceleration. Looooong time to break. Cheap electronics.


> In terms of safety, the small SUVs we're considering aren't significantly less
> safe as they're built on a car chassis rather than truck.

I think that the added hazard of roll-overs and the temptation to treat them as if they were as rugged as a real SUV does make them less safe overall. Look for a crossover or compact SUV with side-airbags. Most of the Asian imports have side-airbags -- including the latest Tucson.

re: comfort

comfort level --- that's also the way I understood it. Personal preference. Not a need, but that's not the point if that's what she wants and you support it.

For ADent and michaelb, I purposely seek out Hondas and Acuras with 100k or more miles. I used to be scared of any car with much more than 100K miles. Now my starting point is closer to 200K if I can find a good one. Here are some reasons why:

They are often in the same condition as much newer vehicles, both in appearance and in how they drive. They just usually age well. And even when old, they'll still have the advantages of their good design over other, similar-era cars.

For me, what's important is how the thing drives. I don't consider cars to be mere appliances, even though with each new generation more and more character seems to get engineered out of them. They just cost too damn much, and consume too much of my time driving them, for me NOT to care a great deal about which one I get. So I'm into cars for the same reasons I want really good computers.

If I was considering such a small SUV, I'd view a used CR-V or Element or RAV4 with 50-70K miles as still being the thing I'd rather drive and own, long-term ... and the price of such a thing will be LESS than the stuff you're looking at!

But this is coming from a guy who bought his '94 Accord with 205K miles, and it looks and drives like new (at 251K.)

Why not a Forester then?

Personally I like cars that sit lower as I know I can out maneuver just about anything on the road. It makes me a lot comfortable knowing I can stop faster, corner tighter and react faster than the majority of cars around me. That said, I do have a car that can raise and lower by about 5' so if I want the car to sit up higher I push a button and if I want it down low I push another button.

Hmm, thinking about that, I paid less for a car that does that than you're looking to spend. I used a broker and saved over 50% off bluebook. (Got a $33k car for $16k.)

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yeah, but its haunted, and has a dead hooker where the spare should be. And that air freshener isn't doing its job very well.....

First off, Michael, never ever go by any rating by IIHS. It's not a consumer group. They help Insurance company's determine rates for different models of cars. I really don't think the price of replacement parts constitutes "safety." Actually a car where you are more likely to die in a major crash, then be rendered into a state that needed constant care would be rated higher all other things being equal. It's all about financials.

But to the original topic, I have a Compass and I like it a lot. Good gas mileage, nice ride and really I feel like I got a lot of car for the price. It's true that the dash and the like are plastic, but it's easy to clean. I always have a way of scratching and gouging rubberized, textured panels in other cars. Also it took a pretty serious blow when a Buick (1980's metal, not current plastic) t-boned my wife heading to work. Damage to the doors, not much else. My wife drove away, the Buick didn't.

Every car is different, even the same model with the same features built in the same factory on the same day. They ride different, sound different and the quality will be different. It's a crap shoot anyway you look at it. Have her drive all three of them and pick the one she wants. She would probably want to choose anyway rather than have you or "some guys (or gals)" on the Internet do it...

I drive a 1980's Buick Century. I find myself looking up at Toyota Camry's at the like. Late 80's Early 90's cars were smaller. Then they strarted groing...

There are smaller fuel-efficient cars out there that are not "pavement scrapers." The Pontiac Vibe, for example, which is a Toyota Matrix in GM clothes.

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M A V I C
Personally I like cars that sit lower as I know I can out maneuver just about anything on the road. It makes me a lot comfortable knowing I can stop faster, corner tighter and react faster than the majority of cars around me. That said, I do have a car that can raise and lower by about 5' so if I want the car to sit up higher I push a button and if I want it down low I push another button.

Agreed. Driving even a "crossover" SUV makes me feel as if I am riding in one of these:


We sold our unreliable (but comfortable to drive) 2001 Ford Taurus wagon and purchased a 08 Honda Element. While the Element is roomy, reliable (I hope) and easy to clean if you have messy dogs and messy little kids, I feel like the thing is going to roll over if I take a gentle curve too quickly. My wife is happier when I drive it because I drive much slower in the Element than the Taurus.

Nothing like looking over the tops of all those tiny POS econoboxes to see traffic ahead of the traffic. Great for avoiding the weavers who think they get somewhere faster by weaving in and out playing bumper cars. The portable garage for the Prius is a plus.

A friend owns a '70 F-250 Camper Special with a cracked exhaust manifold (what, a cracked Ford 390 exhaust manifold? Say it isn't so) and his bumbers are made from wooden 4x12s. No one, and I mean NO ONE, messes with him in traffic.

Maybe she needs something a bit, um, sturdier.

The cab has good visability, and sits reasonably high up.

Thanks again, all.

She has driven all three and likes them all fairly equally, which is how we've narrowed them down to these. I would never make this decision for her as she's going to be the one making the payments and she needs to be comfortable...in every sense of the word. I just figured I'd toss these choices out here because I know car threads always seem to generate a lot of opinions.

She doesn't like the look of the Matrix/Vibe (although I considered one before I bought the Forester. She doesn't like the Forester, which she feels is still lower than she'd like to be. Hey, car buying and driving is all about personal taste, so who am I to judge.

Sorry, but I wouldn't even want an Element parked in my driveway. ;)

M A V I C, I'm guessing you meant you could raise or lower your vehicle by 5" rather than 5'. Otherwise, I wouldn't even want to be on the same road as you.

with dow down 350 and promises of oil going to $175 a barrel, has she thought about mpg?

i thought i read the compass has some of the crappiest mileage ever -- or maybe it was the liberty -- but worth looking at

and only 1 CRV mention so far... great car that will last forever

get pre-approved at your local credit union to get the best rates...

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Edited 999 time(s). Last edit at 12:08PM by jdc.

So, after 450 replies are you any closer to a decision? I am seldom impartial about a choice when I ask for opinions!

Gas mileage is definitely a concern, but not the major concern. These should all get 20-25 mpg if she drives reasonably conservatively, and while that's far from great, that's the tradeoff she willing to make. She'll have only a very short commute to the train station and doesn't do a lot of joyriding.

My guess is that the decision will largely come down to who offers the lowest bottom line figure, and just how sparsely optioned that base Tucson is compared to the used one at the same price.

She can get a 4.49% rate from AAA and she's already pre-approved. No lower rates around here, and they consider an '07- '08 a new car even with the miles on it.

Quote
wurm
M A V I C, I'm guessing you meant you could raise or lower your vehicle by 5" rather than 5'. Otherwise, I wouldn't even want to be on the same road as you.

doh! yes, 5"

One more note on the comfortable thing... it's one thing to say it's someone's choice but it's another not to thwart irresponsibility. If anything, she should feel less comfortable sitting up higher because of the need to be more cautious. People being too comfortable when they drive is what leads to most crashes. They get casual. That's not a good thing.

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There are many ways in which "comfort" can be defined. The biggest key to safe driving is the feeling that you are in control of the vehicle, not that you feel it's controlling you or that you are having to fight to control it. When I say I'm comfortable driving a specific car, that means I feel confident about my ability to control it in any kind of traffic or weather condition, not that I can become lax and inattentive because I'm sinking into plush seats.

I've driven a lot of cars during my 46 years behind the wheel. I've never wrecked one of them, but I definitely had some that were much more comfortable for me to drive. Not all of them were big or little, either. There's something almost indefinable about the "fit" between a vehicle and its driver. Just because one person feels they've gotten the perfect car doesn't mean that someone else would feel that way.

Being young probably means the priority is getting what she likes, what she thinks looks good and will want to be seen in, not so much what is practical.

So I understand, even though I am no longer young and I think--unless she does very little driving--after a few fill-ups she might wish she were still driving the '94 Corolla. ;)

Wurm, I also think you're smart to let her make her own decision.

Quote
MacMagus
I just test drove a couple of Kias. I think they're garbage. Uncomfortable to sit in one for very long. Bad mirrors. Lousy acceleration. Looooong time to break.

Long Time to BREAK??
Isn't that a GOOD thing??

BGnR

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Quote
AlphaDog
The biggest key to safe driving is the feeling that you are in control of the vehicle

I couldn't disagree more. It has nothing to do with feelings. In fact, that's completely backwards. The biggest key to safe driving is knowing you are in control of the vehicle. A motorcyclist doing 100MPH between cars on the freeway may feel they are in control... but that is far from safe.

People feeling they are in control of a vehicle when they really aren't is the most dangerous thing on the road.

For wurm, if she hasn't taken a defensive driving course in her Corolla, I suggest she give it a try. And they try some of the courses in the Tucson or Jeep.

About a week ago I watch a girl lose control of her Honda on the freeway doing well over the speed limit. She obviously felt comfortable driving like that, but I'm pretty sure when her car hit the embankment she felt a little differently.

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BigGuynRusty

Quote
MacMagus
I just test drove a couple of Kias. I think they're garbage. Uncomfortable to sit in one for very long. Bad mirrors. Lousy acceleration. Looooong time to break.

Long Time to BREAK??
Isn't that a GOOD thing??

BGnR

Sorry. Mis-typed.

Looooong time to stop while braking.

Kias suck.

I observed that it's hard to come to a safe stop quickly in a Forester, too. The main difference is that the tension on the pedal successfully conveyed a sense of how quickly I could stop in the Forester.

With the Kia, it was very hard to judge braking strength and distance. The brakes actually seemed to kick in somewhere around a half-second after I'd press the brake pedal and slowly ease up towards the strength that I'd expect from the pressure that I exerted on the pedal. Scary.

If she's narrowed it down to one of those I'd go with option #2, the 2008 Hyundai Tucson: 4 cyl. 2 wheel drive - new. A 2 wheel drive is typically more reliable and has far less cost involved if anything mechanically should go wrong.

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I get so tired of folks hanging a bad rap on hyundai because of models years ago. If that's fair, then let's also talk about the early cheap Hondas etc. Hyundais are getting rave reviews. Look at owner comments at Edmonds.com.

We have a 2007 Hyundai Azera and it is terrific!

I was looking awhile back, and was talked into test driving a Hyundai...I don't remember what model. It was roomy, was a really nice car, but I shied away from it because everyone I talked to talked about Hyundai's reputation. They've been working hard to shed that bad rap, but the reality is that people still THINK that they are bad cars, and your resale will be difficult. Still.

I also looked at the Mazda CX-7 and CX-9. The bad thing about the CX-7 was that it REQUIRED premium gas. Although it got almost the same mileage as the CX-9, it was more expensive because of the gas requirement.

I am terrified of small cars, and was hit by an 18-wheeler in a Honda Prelude. After that I drove a Dodge RAM 4x4 diesel for awhile and bought a Ford F150 for the same reason that your daughter wants a bigger car...I wanted to sit up higher.

I ended up buying a used Murano last October, and I absolutely LOVE it. They make an AWD version of it, and although it looks small, it's a very roomy and substantial car. I get around 22 mpg. My parents have a Lexus LX330, and the Murano is actually roomier. The only drawback is a small window in the back that hurts visibility a little...I'm adding those little dome mirrors to my side mirrors to make it a little easier to see...but other than that I LOVE my car. It's my family's first Nissan, and so far I'm really impressed.

But I got a used one, LOADED, with navigation system, backup camera, leather seats, heated seats, BOSE stereo, sunroof, and a "proximity" key system (you can open and drive the car without using the key...it prevents me from locking my keys in the car!). I paid $24,900. I've seen them used without all the bells and whistles for under $20,000. It is a substantial car, and I feel very safe in it.

I would still stick to foreign cars. I'm still leery of Jeep; Chevy makes a HORRIBLE product. We've always had good luck with the major brands...Honda, Toyota...never had any real problems.

Oh, and your 4wd cars will get worse mileage. I had it on my Ford F150, and used it only a few times while I was in land sales. I don't know that it's worth the extra expense.





Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2008 12:07AM by katkramer.