OK, let me just say, the pilot of that plane knew his @#$%&...BUT, why are the newspapers calling him a hero? A hero is someone who selflessly puts their well-being on the line to save others. This pilot was simply saving his butt and doing his job. He should be congratulated and rewarded for exhibiting excellent skill under pressure and doing a great job, but puhleeze quit with the "hero" BS. Unfortunately, most of the real heros didn't live to tell the tale.

---

"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan

Courage and skill in the face of extreme danger.

Keeping 180 people from an otherwise certain death.

Dunno.

'Could be a hero.

Heck, they oughta fire him for not missing the birds and wrecking a perfectly good jet.

Kidding, of course.

So were Al Haynes and his crew heroes in the Sioux City crash?

A hero is someone who selflessly puts their well-being on the line to save others.

That's one definition.


"Hm. Looks like some birds took out an engine. Were those gulls or pigeons. I hope they were gulls or my tit's in the wringer now. Oh, make that two engines. Ok, I'm just past V2, not enough speed or altitude to make a runway. My glide path is now not much more than a brick and the control little better. I guess I'll just put it down on the Hudson. Ha, I'd like to get down on Kate Hudson. That one sweet girl. I wonder what she looks as a naughty flight attendant.

<Yawn> Ok, just like we practiced back in flight school... Nose up a little. Ooops, no can do. Well that's close enough. 'Ladies and gentlemen, this is the Captain speaking. We're on our final approach-- hehe, get it? Final? Sorry folks, a little pilot humor. The landing will be a little choppy today, so stay in your seats until I turn out the Seat Belt sign, OK?

Piece o'cake. No.1, go back help the crew take care of the passengers. I'm gonna catch a little shut-eye 'till transportation gets here. Oh, ya got any Beeman's?

And if anybody asks, they looked like gulls, got it?!"

MMMmmm, Kate Hudson."


Yep, he was just trying to save his own bacon and collect a paycheck. Just another day at the office.

---

I am that Masked Man.

All you can do, is all you can do.

There’s trouble — it's time to play the sound of my people.

Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

I've been to the edge of the map, and there be monsters.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody counts or nobody counts.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.

Call it extreme professionalism. Landing a current design jet on water and not having it break apart has to mean every single thing was done to perfection. I think I read that until today a jet water landing like that hasn't been accomplished in over 50-years.

He was undoubtedly one of the best who happened to have a horseshoe up his ass on that landing. That he walked the sinking jet twice to make sure everyone was offloaded didn't hurt the hero image either.

---

"Who's more foolish - the fool or the fool that follows him?" - Obi Wan Kenobi

Quote
Apple Dictionary
Hero: a person, typically a man, who is admired or idealized for courage, outstanding achievements, or noble qualities : a war hero.
...
• (also hero sandwich) another term for submarine sandwich.

Yeah, it's easier to consider someone a hero when things seem even more dramatic - like, say, if half the people died, but his actions allowed the rest to be saved.

He may not be your hero, davester, but for the 150+ people on that plane, plus their families, I'm betting their mostly OK with the label.

For the ones who aren't just happy to be alive, at least they now have something to sue for and get out of their mortgage problem.

Having the guts to stand up and offer more than just rhetoric drives some people crazy.

I have no problem with accolades for him or others there but I'm sick of the friggin' TV news media turning every thing that happens into a never ending reality show complete with sappy video montages and even sappier music beds.

Only thing worse lately is constantly being bombarded with the most disgusting lung cancer PSAs while I'm trying to eat breakfast or dinner. This is my reward for never smoking?

---

JoeM

in the midst of all the grim news we've had for so long, i think we all really needed a hero at the moment. let's let it be this guy.

i remarked to my son, an aviation buff, this morning: it's rare that all those hours pilots spend in the simulators actually come down to a life-saving, defining moment. this man's training paid off. kudos to him for not choking.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2009 08:38AM by graylocks.

Like davester, I bristle at our society's overuse of the word "hero" - but not in this case. This guy made the ultimate difference in the lives of his 155 passengers and crew and their families, and he did it with the odds stacked decidedly against him. He is a hero.

---

It is what it is.

Hmmm... only emergency water landing of a commercial airliner WITHOUT A FATALITY in aviation history. Yeah, this guy's a putz. Managing to get this plane down, unpowered, full load of fuel, at an angle such that the craft did not flip nor break apart - yeah, just some average pilot. Sorry (not really), but Sullenberger IS a hero.

Here's a link to a blurry, but incredible photo of the jetliner hitting the river:
[www.ireport.com]

I think you're way off-base, Dave.

Putting on my real-job aerospace engineer hat, a safe landing on water is just incredibly rare. Counter-intuitively, water crashes tend to be much worse than land crashes; water is incompressible, while you have a chance to bounce if you hit the ground. In addition to that, water acts on flight surfaces the same way air does (they're both fluids in physics terms), it's just three orders of magnitude more dense, so the "aerodynamic" forces resulting from passing through that fluid are 1000 times stronger. That's bad juju for an aluminum airframe. I still can't believe he managed to lay that thing down with no damage at all. It's just astonishing.

Will;
No one said it was without damage at all... just the wings stayed on, and all the major pieces stayed attached.
Pretty incredible!

Water crashes may indeed be "worse", but the bright side to them (if there is one) is the chance of post-crash cabin fires (which scare me more than a crash) is cut way down.


I think Hero is appropriate here..
And I also think over the next few weeks it's going to be blown out of proportion by the media. Probably to the point that the pilot is going to be asked "So.. when are you running for office? Congress or Senate?".

---

Paul F.
-----
A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.
--

--

--
Eureka, CA

Quote
davester
OK, let me just say, the pilot of that plane knew his @#$%&...BUT, why are the newspapers calling him a hero? A hero is someone who selflessly puts their well-being on the line to save others. This pilot was simply saving his butt and doing his job. He should be congratulated and rewarded for exhibiting excellent skill under pressure and doing a great job, but puhleeze quit with the "hero" BS. Unfortunately, most of the real heros didn't live to tell the tale.

It's pretty clear that you weren't on that plane nor was anybody you love. You sit back and get high and mighty about how the word "hero" should be used, but if you'd been on that plane, my guess is that you'd be wanting to kiss the guy's feet, too. He might even be your personal hero.

As for your annoyance with the media? I know exactly how that can be handled. While this country is no longer quite as free as it once was, you can still chose which newspaper articles to read and which to skip, and there's also a handy on/off switch for each of your electronic devices. I thought the local news was going a bit overboard on the coverage last night myself, so I just turned off the TV.

Quote

Hmmm... only emergency water landing of a commercial airliner WITHOUT A FATALITY in aviation history.

Glued;
I just noticed on Wikipedia's main page, there's already an article about this flight...
It links to several other water landing crashes, and there are at least two there with no fatalities... (Tupolev 124 in the Neva River, and Japan Airlines Flight 2)...
So it's not the ONLY one... but yeah, bloody rare!
[en.wikipedia.org]

Just for the record

---

Paul F.
-----
A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.
--

--

--
Eureka, CA

I say hero. Not only did he remain cool under extreme circumstances, after he made a prefect ditch into water that saved many lives he walked the aisles a couple times to make sure everyone got out. Last one off a sinking plane, risking it all to do his job. The rest of the crew also deserve respect. How much do those stewardesses get paid? The next time I fly this is who I want to see in the cockpit.

No one said it was without damage at all... just the wings stayed on, and all the major pieces stayed attached.

I think it's a safe bet Will knows that.
I saw his remark as meaning just what you did- all the major pieces stayed attached.

A question for Carnos, birdman, or anybody else with ATR savvy-- was he already wheels up when he hunted down the geese? Did he raise the gear anticipating a water "landing", or were the gear down from takeoff? I'd think if the gear were down, the crash would have been horrific instead of terrific. (And where's Charlie with the etymology of "terrific"?!)

As I suspected (and is frequently the case with older pilots) he's also had some military flight time, so it's entirely possible that he's paid some dues AND lived to tale a tale or two.

---

I am that Masked Man.

All you can do, is all you can do.

There’s trouble — it's time to play the sound of my people.

Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

I've been to the edge of the map, and there be monsters.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody counts or nobody counts.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.

And another thing, please let us enjoy our hero for now, because next week a made for TV movie will come out with Bruce Willis playing Sully, McDonald's will have little plastic airplanes in the happy meals, and Walmart will be hacking semi-toxic Chinese US Airway hats.

The pilot? Clearly a hero.

But MAN was the Today Show going bugfugging crazy this morning. "Miracle on the Hudson" every other sentence. Let's talk to one of the "incredible surviviors". WTF? An "incredible survivor"? Any passenger who didn't trample somebody to death on the way out or use a small child as a flotation device was a "hero". The barge and ferry captains who went to pick up people were "heroes." Them too? Good Samaritans, no doubt, and well done (though you would have been a complete ass if you had just sat there and watched). But "heroes"? Now we're starting to stretch things a bit.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2009 12:30PM by Blankity Blank.

His (copilot and navigator too) family would have free design and photo work for as long as I lived. Since he lives not far away, I'd mow his lawn too.

"I think Hero is appropriate here..
And I also think over the next few weeks it's going to be blown out of proportion by the media. Probably to the point that the pilot is going to be asked "So.. when are you running for office? Congress or Senate?"."

I'd vote for him .

The next time I fly this is who I want to see in the cockpit.

Amen!!!

Yes, I draw the line at the rescue workers being heroes, but admire the hell out of them for doing their jobs.

The pilot is a savior to the people aboard the plane but also to the many hundreds of other people in buildings, cars and on the street who were not harmed due to his intelligence and skill. Just think of the numbers of people who could have died had he tried for Teterboro and not made it....

---

Hurts like a bastid...

Yes, I draw the line at the rescue workers being heroes

Depends on the circumstances. I'd not draw that line as plenty of rescue workers certainly go in harm's way to do their job.

---

I am that Masked Man.

All you can do, is all you can do.

There’s trouble — it's time to play the sound of my people.

Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

I've been to the edge of the map, and there be monsters.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody counts or nobody counts.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.

My son is a pilot and on take off from OK City, OK the right engine caught fire. He got it back down safely and everyone aboard was thanking him for saving their livesand calling him a hero. He told me that he was saving his butt and they were just along for the ride.

You can't take it away from the pilot for doing his job. That's exactly why they do countless hours in simulators and training each year, just to bring the plane down safely. Anyone could fly a plane, but anyone can't make the decisions and have the skill to get outta a disastrous situation.

That's exactly why they do countless hours in simulators and training each year, just to bring the plane down safely.

True, but it *is* a simulator, after all. Off the ground, it's a lot more real.

And as calm as they may seem, the Vinyl Pucker Factor is not unknown to most pilots.

---

I am that Masked Man.

All you can do, is all you can do.

There’s trouble — it's time to play the sound of my people.

Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

I've been to the edge of the map, and there be monsters.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody counts or nobody counts.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.

Quote

Yes, I draw the line at the rescue workers being heroes

Depends on the circumstances. I'd not draw that line as plenty of rescue workers certainly go in harm's way to do their job.

I was referring only to this one circumstance. Anyone is capable of "heroic" acts, I suppose. I once raced into a burning house... but then had to turn around because the smoke was too thick and I could not breathe. I'm not a hero for doing that, I think most people would have done the same.

---

Hurts like a bastid...

I get what Davester was saying and gotta say I'm closer to agreeing with him than I am to calling the guy a hero. Had he been removed from the situation and didn't have a personal interest in the outcome, then sure he's a hero. A guy that jumps on a grenade to save the rest of his platoon... he's a hero. The guy that rushes into a burning building to save his neighbor's kid. he's a hero. This guy is did a stellar job and should be commended but doesn't fall into the hero category for me.

The only part that could influence a change in my stance is the fact that he was the last off the plane. The fact he stayed on board and checked and double checked the plane for anyone left behind when there was a chance he could have dies from that, well maybe that is something worthy of being called a hero. It certainly didn't seem as though the risks at that point even compared to the original landing part.

Great job, excellent case of grace under pressure but not hero-worth in my book. That is in no way meant to take anything away from the guy.

As I understand it (listening to the experts today) simulations are based on real life data gathered from
actual flying aircraft and since they don't purposely ditch planes there is no real simulation for this kind of thing.
(experts here can correct me if that is wrong)

Also pointed out was that he was previously a fighter pilot and has served as a crash investigator for the NTSB
and has his own safety consulting company.

Sounds like the right guy in the right place at the right time.

---

Sounds like the right guy in the right place at the right time.

yes, could I request him for my next flight....???

---

Hurts like a bastid...

Hmmm. The votes are running against me. Here's Wikipedia's etymology of the term (my bold):

Quote
wikipedia
A hero (from Greek heros[1]), in Greek mythology and folklore, was originally a demigod[2], the offspring of a mortal and a deity,[3] their cult being one of the most distinctive features of ancient Greek religion.

Later, hero (male) and heroine (female) came to refer to characters (fictional or historical) that, in the face of danger and adversity or from a position of weakness, display courage and the will for self sacrifice – that is, heroism – for some greater good, originally of martial courage or excellence but extended to more general moral excellence.

As long as I can recall, heroism has always referred to self-sacrifice for the greater good. Also, pointing out that this guy's actions don't actually fit the definition of "hero" is NOT a putdown as the folks here are implying. Sully exhibited courage, extreme coolness under intense pressure, guts, professionalism, incredible skill, and daring, and is a saviour to all those passengers and folks on the ground. He is a heck of a guy and should deservedly be showered with those accolades. However, there was no self-sacrifice for the greater good involved in this incident (unless checking that everyone was out of the plane was a risky move), so I still don't see how he can be labelled as a hero. Based on the opinions voiced in this thread though, it is clear that the current popular definition of hero differs from the definition in wikipedia. Perhaps this is because the literature is full of invulnerable "superheroes" who don't even have the ability to risk self-sacrifice. What does the term "heroism" mean to people these days?...daring and skillful...doesn't seem right to me.

---

"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/17/2009 11:06AM by davester.

Funny, and here I thought all along this thread was about that TV show called "Heros"

I think part of the problem herein lies with the fact most people don't know a lot about airplanes and the system which they work in. As a result, they see events like this and think of it as miraculous. Perhaps this is much like the conjecture that a technology sufficiently advanced will seem like magic to those less advanced. Heck, I know how airplanes are designed and built, but I'm still struck by a religious sense of awe when I see one of these behemoths take to the air!

Having said that, I'm not trying to tell people who they can and can't call a hero. Nor do I want to take anything away from the pilot (I think davester put it best when he said "Sully exhibited courage, extreme coolness under intense pressure, guts, professionalism, incredible skill, and daring, and is a saviour to all those passengers and folks on the ground. He is a heck of a guy and should deservedly be showered with those accolades" ).

And I will also be the first to say that 'the best-laid plans of men and mice' don't always go right.

But, the end result of Flight 1549 is the non-extraordinary consequence of deliberate planning and design for whom the following can be thanked (in almost equal measure):

1) The flight crew. Flying is both easy and not easy. For the vast majority of a pilots career, they're simply flying an aircraft, for which perhaps the physical skills and coordination is no more complex of a task than learning to walk or speak. Where the pilot earns his bread and butter are during emergencies (or navigating difficult weather conditions). This is what a pilot goes to training for. The countless hours spent during training is learning how to handle (both the decision making and physical skills) various emergency scenarios. In particular, the double engine out and water ditching scenarios are among others that all pilots flying commercial airliners train for...repeatedly. The crew of flight 1549 were simply executing that which they've practiced countless times before. That's why afterwards, Sully was acting like it's no big deal (though inside his head, he might have been thanking his lucky stars...remember what I said about 'men and mice').

2) The ferry crews (and others who immediately raced to the scene. Due to their quick arrival, no passengers would die from hypothermia due to the aircraft slowly sinking (though perhaps they might have been able to get into the rafts).

3) The engineers who designed the plane (including the certification people in various governmental agencies around the world, such as the FAA and their European counterparts EASA). Through their efforts the aircraft was designed to withstand a relatively low speed controlled impact event like this. What this means is that the aircraft structure didn't tear apart nor did the interior furnishings break loose and potentially block escape paths...time is of the essence in a scenario like this. Also, by design, the interior layout was such that the aircraft can be evacuated in 90 seconds or less, again, time is of the essence.

I've probably left out some others, but not intentionally (it's kinda late).

Quote
dochocson
Heck, they oughta fire him for not missing the birds and wrecking a perfectly good jet.

Kidding, of course.

So were Al Haynes and his crew heroes in the Sioux City crash?

Haynes had the insight to forgo conventional thinking (actually, there was no conventional thinking when total loss of the control system occurred). He had the fantastic insight to realize he could individually manipulate the engines to gain some measure of control of the airplane. That was some serious out of the box thinking. Had he not done that, the aircraft would've most likely 'tumbled out of control' from the sky, killing everyone on impact. There was no formal procedural training that prepared him for that scenario (unlike Sullenberger). The guy was pure genius!



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/18/2009 03:54AM by Carnos Jax.