I know we have a lot of West Coast members, and I would like to ask for some much needed advice. I am trying to plan a trip to California for myself and my daughter. We are considering the San Francisco area, LA area, or San Diego area. The trip would be in June and would be from 5-7 nights. Right now, I am leaning towards San Francisco with a possible day trip to Yosemite, and maybe one down to Monterey but I am open to all suggestions for any of the cities.

As many of you know, my daughter just graduated from high school, so this would be a mother daughter trip to celebrate that and her upcoming 18th birthday. She is more of a shopper than a hiker, so take that into account as far as suggestions of things to do. I would very much appreciate suggestions of where to stay. The hotel needs to be nice and in a safe area, but not cost $500 a night. Also, parking seems to be extremely expensive, so it seems that renting a car is not the best way to go. Suggestions for the best way to get around would also be nice.

My husband and I did the drive up the Pacific Coast highway from LA to San Francisco as part of our honeymoon, back in March of 1990, but that is the last time I was in California. I considered doing that drive again, but thought it might be better to be based in one city, this time. I would appreciate any and all advice as this is a hard itinerary to plan.

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Roswell, GA (Atlanta suburb)

Shopper instead of hiker?

You may consider the south shore of Lake Tahoe instead of Yosemite. There is plenty of nice scenery and short hikes. Near the Heavenly ski resort is a lot of new development with a nice Embassy Suites, upscale mall etc. It's about a three hour drive from SF.

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“Live your life, love your life, don’t regret…live, learn and move forward positively.” – CR Johnson
Loving life in Lake Tahoe, CA



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2009 08:22AM by Markintosh.

Without a car, San Francisco would be my choice, too. Using Bidding 4 Travel and Priceline, I can usually get a four star in a good part of town for under $100 per night. SF has ample public transportation, plus it's a great town to walk in. BART now goes out to SFO, and you can always rent a car for your day trip to Yosemite/Monterey/Napa or wherever you decide to go. You can BART to Oakland or take the Ferry across to Marin for other, shorter day trips. If you do SF, consider taking a Wok Wiz walking tour of Chinatown.

Forget LA
San Francisco all the way.

If you have the time, drive a little bit further south of Monterey to Big Sur.

Big Sur (or as far away from cities and shopping as possible) would be my destination.

Hop -on hop-off works well in some cities.

Falsely attributed to Twain, but good advice anyways:

"The coldest winter I ever spent was a summer in San Francisco."

San Francisco can be quite cool in the summer, especially if you're watching a nighttime baseball game.

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maco
Forget LA
San Francisco all the way.

If you have the time, drive a little bit further south of Monterey to Big Sur.

Totally agree, and north of San Francisco is beautiful too, I used to live in the wine country (Sonoma County).

Well - I spent my teenage/early 20s years in LA, and have lived in San Diego my entire adult life. If I had just ONE choice for a vacation, I would pick neither and go to San Francisco.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2009 09:16AM by SDGuy.

I don't think you'll enjoy a 1-day trip to Yosemite: it is an amazing place but really needs a few days minimum.

I agree that either a north trip or a south trip is probably the best idea.

Pros of San Fransisco:
1. Public transportation is pretty good, although a car is helpful.
2. There is some great shopping in SF.
3. The best sightseeing is in SF, if you ask me: Golden Gate Bridge, Alcatraz, the cable cars, the wharf, etc. Also, Golden Gate Park has some terrific musums, notably the deYoung museum, the California Academy of Sciences (opened within the year, and it's fantastic), and the butterfly museum.
4. A trip to Monterrey, as you say, is doable and a great drive (Santa Cruz is a terrific lunch-time spot as well).
5. Redwood forests are nearby, and they are amazing.
Con of SF:
1. The weather in SF in June is hit or miss. It can be rainy and chilly.
2. The beaches are nice, but not for sunbathing.

Pros of LA:
1. Even better shopping (but possibly pricer, too)
2. Disneyland? (might not be a pro...) Movie studios, too, and you can get on a TV show, which is always somewhat entertaining.
3. Decent beaches, relatively warm water (but still very cold by east coast standards)
4. An easy drive to Santa Barbara, which has great shopping, too.
Cons of LA:
1. Smog, traffic, not much public transportation, crowded...

Pros of San Diego:
1. The best weather of any of the choices (but you will run into "June Gloom" in the mornings, which invariably burns off by about 11am)
2. The San Diego Zoo / Wild Animal Park is world-class
3. Seaworld? (again, maybe not a pro)
4. Not as crowded as SF or LA, and somewhat less expensive
5. Shopping in La Jolla is terrific, but expensive (though prob. not as bad as Beverly Hills).
Cons of SD:
1. Public transportation? What public transportation?
2. Not as glitzy as LA or SF

I thinkyou can make a great trip out of any of the choices. I'd probably rank it as follows, but again, consider the possibility of poor weather in SF:
1. SF
2. SD
3. LA

I think it's going to be a fun trip no matter what you end up doing!

-Tofer
p.s. I forgot: regardless of where you go, bring a sweater (or plan on purchasing one). Evenings dip into the 50s in all coastal cities in CA, and you won't want to walk around in a t-shirt after about 6pm.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2009 09:21AM by Tofer.

But where does your daughter want to go? Or is this a surprise trip?

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freeradical
Falsely attributed to Twain, but good advice anyways:

"The coldest winter I ever spent was a summer in San Francisco."

San Francisco can be quite cool in the summer, especially if you're watching a nighttime baseball game.

Ditto that. My wife used to live in the Bay Area while we were dating and doing the long distance thing. When I would visit her in the summer, I'd go from 90+ heat/humidity of Houston to 50-60 degree SF nights. Brrrrr...somehow it always felt colder than 50 to 60 degrees.

I also echo what others have said: take her to the Bay Area. I think San Diego would be better if she was younger as they have the Wildlife Park, Zoo, etc. But, if she's a shopper, SF/Bay Area all the way.

My wife used to live in Sunnyvale and her sister used to live in Pleasanton. Now, her sister is in Saratoga and her brother is in Cupertino. We go back to visit them all the time. I love the Bay Area and would love to live there.

No one has mentioned it, but while you're there, don't forget to stop by the Apple campus and check on Steve.

---

My daily record blog: [www.auditorymusings.com]

San Francisco has a charm about it that was very unique, I fell in love, until my car was towed. Also, bring a jacket, it gets chilly there even in summer.

LA has many things but be prepared to drive everywhere.

San Diego is really nice, especially the Lajolla cove area. If I could live anywhere I would live in San Diego.

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Ways to improve web conference image and sound quality. [forums.macresource.com]

Forgot to mention that driving through SF scares the @#$%& outta me! There's nothing like the feeling of having a stop sign at the top of a hill and then letting off your brakes and hitting the gas ASAP so that you don't start rolling backwards!

Thanks for all the advice so far.

As far as where she wants to go, she was the one who mentioned California and San Francisco was one of the places she thought she would like. The coolness of the weather would actually be a plus, since we will be coming from the capital of heat and humidity, Atlanta, and I would love to escape that for a week. My dad also told me how cold SF could be in the summer, and I will be happy to pack a sweater/jacket.

If we go to Yosemite, we would book a tour so that I don't have to rent a car and the same for a trip to Monterey. I found several day tour places and they were not too expensive. There is one to Yosemite that leaves really early and returns pretty late, and as long as I am not the one driving, that would be fine. I don't think I can talk her into more than one "Nature Themed" day, but I would really like to see Yosemite.

I also found a tour of SF that is done on Segways. I think that would be really neat, but I will have to run it by her. She will probably be open to the idea. The people who took the tour gave it good reviews.

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Roswell, GA (Atlanta suburb)

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pinkoos
Forgot to mention that driving through SF scares the @#$%& outta me! There's nothing like the feeling of having a stop sign at the top of a hill and then letting off your brakes and hitting the gas ASAP so that you don't start rolling backwards!

Pfft.
Wake me when you've done that with a clutch.
Or on a bicycle.

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I am not Ryan Seacrest, and I do not approve this message.

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Seacrest

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pinkoos
Forgot to mention that driving through SF scares the @#$%& outta me! There's nothing like the feeling of having a stop sign at the top of a hill and then letting off your brakes and hitting the gas ASAP so that you don't start rolling backwards!

Pfft.
Wake me when you've done that with a clutch.
Or on a bicycle.

Ha...don't think I'll ever be that brave...or crazy.

Good thread.

I took our family of four to San Diego in 2005. A fantastic time was had by all. The boys were 10 and 7 and we found plenty of kid stuff to do (Legoland was their favorite.)

This year we're headed for SF. The kids are older and will appreciate more things they wouldn't have just a couple of years ago. We're spending 5-6 days in the city with no vehicle (rented an apartment on VRBO.com) and then we'll get a vehicle and go to the Muir Woods, wine country, maybe Tahoe.

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Seacrest

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pinkoos
Forgot to mention that driving through SF scares the @#$%& outta me! There's nothing like the feeling of having a stop sign at the top of a hill and then letting off your brakes and hitting the gas ASAP so that you don't start rolling backwards!

Pfft.
Wake me when you've done that with a clutch manpurse..

shopping and chocolate - how could you consider going anywhere else ? [www.ghirardelli.com]

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Seacrest
Wake me when you've done that with a clutch.

Search out Bill Cosby's "Driving in San Francisco" routine for a pretty funny take on that.

And I have driven in San Francisco . . . with a clutch.

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tronnei
Good thread.

I took our family of four to San Diego in 2005. A fantastic time was had by all. The boys were 10 and 7 and we found plenty of kid stuff to do (Legoland was their favorite.)

This year we're headed for SF. The kids are older and will appreciate more things they wouldn't have just a couple of years ago. We're spending 5-6 days in the city with no vehicle (rented an apartment on VRBO.com) and then we'll get a vehicle and go to the Muir Woods, wine country, maybe Tahoe.

My wife took me to Muir woods one time. It was beautiful.

those bus trips to Yose can be pretty damn long -- usually filled with out of country travelers -- i might do it on the last day before you leave so you dont get wiped out early =)

its almost 5 hours by car (maybe 4.5 if you miss all traffic) -- and im sure its longer by bus since they probably stop for breakfast and dinner -- so figure 10+ hours on a bus or in a car... ouch

id say take a 2 day trip to somehwere halfway between -- but theres nothing between SF and Yose -- just farmland

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Edited 999 time(s). Last edit at 12:08PM by jdc.

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jdc
those bus trips to Yose can be pretty damn long -- usually filled with out of country travelers -- i might do it on the last day before you leave so you dont get wiped out early =)

its almost 5 hours by car (maybe 4.5 if you miss all traffic) -- and im sure its longer by bus since they probably stop for breakfast and dinner -- so figure 10+ hours on a bus or in a car... ouch

id say take a 2 day trip to somehwere halfway between -- but theres nothing between SF and Yose -- just farmland

Thanks for that info. I do remember that it looked like a long day on the website, but I am really good at sleeping in a car/bus/moving vehicle and so is my daughter.

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Roswell, GA (Atlanta suburb)

My vote would be SF...
It doesn't smell as bad as LA, and it's not as hot as San Diego.


Some stops to consider in the SF Bay Area (some already mentioned);
Alcatraz. Nice ferry ride, interesting tour, nice scenery.
Golden Gate Park.
The park at the end of the Golden Gate Bridge.
Lori's Diner: [www.lorisdiner.com]

Cupertino and the Mothership aren't that far away, either
(at least not by west coast standards...).

---

Paul F.
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A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.
--

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--
Eureka, CA

maybe a couple of things to stay away from?

SF Zoo needs a complete and total overhaul
Palace of fine arts is nothing
pier 29 is only if you really want to be touristy -- otherwise its a dump

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Edited 999 time(s). Last edit at 12:08PM by jdc.

I'm born and raised in SF and can vouch for all the good suggestions for the Bay Area thus far. I've been in LA in June and between the air quality, heat, and distance between anything, SF is the winner hands down. As to the weather here, sure its usually cool and misty during the summer, but we've been getting some mild heat lately which has been very nice (middle upper 60s to low 70s). The weather patterns might last into June this year.

A day trip to Yosemite is doable, I've done it on a motorcycle, and it wasn't enough. Cars are less welcome there these days and at this point I don't know what the rules are on them. Someone chime in with some facts on this, please!

If you don't make it to Yosemite, Muir Woods would be very rewarding.

Shopping couldn't be easer, in the city a short walk or taxi ride will take you to our best, like Union Square, Union street, Westfield Mall, as well as all the little neighborhood shopping areas. We have theaters too, just like the big cities!

For the time you have you can pack in a lot of activities here in the Bay Area.

Cheers!

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billb

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Seacrest

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pinkoos
Forgot to mention that driving through SF scares the @#$%& outta me! There's nothing like the feeling of having a stop sign at the top of a hill and then letting off your brakes and hitting the gas ASAP so that you don't start rolling backwards!

Pfft.
Wake me when you've done that with a clutch manpurse..

What the Fukk is wrong with you?
What fukking business is it of yours what my fukking sexual orientation is or isn't?
WHAT IN MY POST WOULD SPUR YOU TO WRITE SOME HOMOPHOBIC BULLSH!T RESPONSE ??!

---

I am not Ryan Seacrest, and I do not approve this message.

My Dad lives in SD - it sure is nice there (very pretty) and seems to have plenty of shopping, things to do, and lots of nice eateries.

LA - well, Greg is from there and I pretty much refuse to go back anymore, if he goes back for a visit. Bleh - WAY too much traffic to be fun, too much time spent getting to where you're going, instead of enjoying where you were going.

I'l defer to the others on their opinions about SF, since I've only been on a brief trip to Oakland, which isn't the same at all.

edited for typos

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2009 10:47AM by MacGurl.

Point Reyes, Stinson Beach, Sausalito...lots of nice places just north of the Bay Bridge.

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Seacrest

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billb

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Seacrest

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pinkoos
Forgot to mention that driving through SF scares the @#$%& outta me! There's nothing like the feeling of having a stop sign at the top of a hill and then letting off your brakes and hitting the gas ASAP so that you don't start rolling backwards!

Pfft.
Wake me when you've done that with a clutch manpurse..

What the Fukk is wrong with you?
What fukking business is it of yours what my fukking sexual orientation is or isn't?
WHAT IN MY POST WOULD SPUR YOU TO WRITE SOME HOMOPHOBIC BULLSH!T RESPONSE ??!

Um, simple play on words.
Turning it into something homophobic is yout doing, not mine.

[thesatchelpages.com]

Is murse more PC this year ?


Must be the flat tire.

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Seacrest

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pinkoos
Forgot to mention that driving through SF scares the @#$%& outta me! There's nothing like the feeling of having a stop sign at the top of a hill and then letting off your brakes and hitting the gas ASAP so that you don't start rolling backwards!

Pfft.
Wake me when you've done that with a clutch.
Or on a bicycle.

Pfffffft! That's nuthin'. I've driven across the hilly part of SF in a Volkswagen Bug that had a snapped clutch cable (to go from my job on the docks to the VW dealer to get a new cable).

Also, pinkoos, do you not have two feet?

Anyway, I think most people above have covered the main bases. I've lived in both SF and LA, with many trips to SD and the preference order is definitely: 1. SF; 2. SD; 5. LA. There is sooooo much to do and see in the area in and around SF that you won't be disappointed. I also agree that it is ridiculous to go to Yosemite for a day trip. Most of the day will be spent in the car looking at farmland. Tahoe is also too far to go for 1 day. You need two days minimum for either, otherwise you'll spend almost no time there and if it's cloudy those couple of hours, oh well, you won't see a thing. On the other hand, Monterey, Carmel, Big Sur, Muir Woods, Angel Island, the wine country, sailing on the bay, bay cruises, etc are great day trips. I'd say that you should plan for a few days in SF with no car (take BART+taxi from the airport to your hotel) because it'll just be a useless liability for most things. Get around by walking, BART, muni, muni metro, taxi). Then rent a car to visit the less accessible neighborhoods and for daytripping, crossing the Golden Gate (must stop at vista point on the north side), etc. I'm not a shopper so can't guide you there, but my english cousins are and they go berserk in SF everytime they visit, going home with extra suitcases jammed with who knows what.

Oh, one more thing rgG. For obvious reasons, you probably already know this...if you rent a car for any of those day trips, rent a CONVERTIBLE! Hmmm...one of my verts is for sale, maybe you could rent mine.

---

"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2009 11:58AM by davester.

My daughter nixed the Segway tour. She said that when she was in Chicago last summer for a summer program she and her friends took great delight in pointing at and making fun of the Segway tour people. Oh well, it seemed like a good idea to me.

Since I am getting a lot of thumbs down on the Yosemite idea, I will look at Muir Woods as a possible alternative.

Any recommendations on a hotel in SF, and what area would be best, would be highly appreciated. I am looking at Tripadvisor, but there are soooooo many to choose from.

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Roswell, GA (Atlanta suburb)

go north from SF on highway 1. car-camp near Point Reyes on the beach or in Gualala at the campground. Go all the way up to Arcata. See the big trees. Hike. Freeze your toes off in the ocean water. Eat seafood. AVOID MENDOCINO.

If you opt for SF and do the Monterey/Carmel/Big Sur side trip, be sure to see the Monterey Aquarium. Absolutely spectacular! Probably the finest in the world! Count on spending at least a half day there. Originally funded by Hewlett/Packard money.

Forget about Yosemite as a side trip. Two or three days wouldn't do Yosemite justice. It's a bit distant and worth a week's trip all by itself!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2009 01:41PM by GeneH.

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GeneH
If you opt for SF and do the Monterey/Carmel/Big Sur side trip, be sure to see the Monterey Aquarium. Absolutely spectacular! Probably the finest in the world! Count on spending at least a half day there. Originally funded by Hewlett/Packard money.

Forget about Yosemite as a side trip. It's a bit distant and worth a week's trip all by itself!.

We did the aquarium when we were dating. It was nice and the sea otters were very cute.

Didn't one of the Star Trek movies get filmed there?

"The Voyage Home"

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My husband and I went to the Monterey Aquarium when we were there in 1990. It was great.

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Roswell, GA (Atlanta suburb)

If you're out in Monterey and and are up for a bit of adventure, go kayaking in the bay right by the aquarium. You can rent a kayak for an hour and paddle around. You'll see sea otters less than 50 feet away just sunning themselves on top of the kelp forest.

The water is fairly peaceful mid afternoon and you won't get very wet - they'll give you wet suits.

I've taken my kids to do that several times and they've loved it each time.

Another suggestion is to go to Telegraph Ave in Berkeley for some 'alternative' shopping and take in the hippie ambiance. Some great dining in Berkeley as well.

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pinkoos
Forgot to mention that driving through SF scares the @#$%& outta me! There's nothing like the feeling of having a stop sign at the top of a hill and then letting off your brakes and hitting the gas ASAP so that you don't start rolling backwards!

Next time. Put you're emergency brake on. When it's time to move, give it a goodly amount of gas while easing off of the emergency brake. When it comes to downhill, just say "Wheeeeeeee...!"

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pinkoos
Forgot to mention that driving through SF scares the @#$%& outta me! There's nothing like the feeling of having a stop sign at the top of a hill and then letting off your brakes and hitting the gas ASAP so that you don't start rolling backwards!

Reminds of when my ex and i visited back in the 70's. She is afraid of heights. We were in the southern part of the city or a suburb visiting someone then drove north, i think we were on Castro Street, but don't hold me to it. Anyway, after driving uphill for a long time we suddenly came over the crest, no warning and it was steep on the other side. I still laugh at the way she slid down and put her feet up on the windshield in panic. I guess she thought she could save herself from falling.

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And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once.
—Friedrich Nietzsche
Western Massachusetts

I reside 5 minutes from Pismo Beach. I always am a big proponent of our area (San Luis Obispo County) because of the diversity of backdrops. We have great wineries (when she is older), the beaches, a great farmer's market and some neat things (Hearts Castle, Morro Rock and Madonna Inn). The best part is that Monterey or Big Sur is not a long drive (or for that matter, LA or SF). Best of luck on your trip and our great state will appreciate your tourist dollars.

since she's a San Francisco virgin; go there. having been born in SF, and growing up in the Bay Area, spending summers in Yosemite/Tahoe/Shasta, before moving to LA, owning a condo in Palm Springs, and having relatives and friends up and down the state, I've come to know the state about as well as anybody that has spent close to six decades in it. if I could live anywhere, it'd be the San Diego area; but to see our state strut its stuff for a first-timer, San Francisco is where to start. the wine country and coastal redwoods across the Golden Gate (stopping in Sausalito, looking over at Belvedere...). as noted, down to Big Sur and Monterey (maybe Carmel & Pacific Grove). she can check out Cal & Stanford. there's lots of beautiful stuff; not just tourist stuff like we have here in LA. in SF, the neighborhood restaurants are fabulous for the most part. SF easily has the highest percentage of good restaurants to total restaurants of any reasonably large city in the country. we have plenty of good eateries here in LA, but we also have lots (too many) klunkers. save LA & SD for a future trip, you won't regret going to "The City" w/ your graduate. enjoy.

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Sometimes it is what it is...
and then there's times when it's really better.



==

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vision63
Next time. Put you're emergency brake on. When it's time to move, give it a goodly amount of gas while easing off of the emergency brake.

When I was learning to drive, my dad (who was the one teaching me) said that was cheating. I had to learn to stop on those hills and start again without using the emergency brake, without slipping the clutch, and without killing the engine. When I could do that, I was allowed to get my license and not one second before. Almost 50 years later I can still do it, too.

Thanks for even more responses, especially the one about where to do some alternative shopping. My daughter is really wanting to see if she can find some unique clothes while we are there.

As for driving a stick, I was teaching her to do just that yesterday, in my Miata. She isn't ready for any hills just yet. I had to get friends to teach me to drive a stick when I was 16 or 17 and I am pretty good with not rolling back on a hill, but those in SF might give me a bit of pause.

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Roswell, GA (Atlanta suburb)

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AlphaDog

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vision63
Next time. Put you're emergency brake on. When it's time to move, give it a goodly amount of gas while easing off of the emergency brake.

When I was learning to drive, my dad (who was the one teaching me) said that was cheating. I had to learn to stop on those hills and start again without using the emergency brake, without slipping the clutch, and without killing the engine. When I could do that, I was allowed to get my license and not one second before. Almost 50 years later I can still do it, too.

That's good birthday girl. It is cheating, but when people come visit and freak out hopefully it comforts them.

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AlphaDog

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vision63
Next time. Put you're emergency brake on. When it's time to move, give it a goodly amount of gas while easing off of the emergency brake.

When I was learning to drive, my dad (who was the one teaching me) said that was cheating. I had to learn to stop on those hills and start again without using the emergency brake, without slipping the clutch, and without killing the engine. When I could do that, I was allowed to get my license and not one second before. Almost 50 years later I can still do it, too.

Why would that be cheating...and have you ever tried it on something like Nob Hill, San Francisco? Pretty much the entire rest of the country doesn't have any driveable hills that steep. It is perfectly reasonable to use the hand brake on steep hills. I've driven a stick my entire life and I can assure you that avoiding use of the hand brake in the steep parts of SF is not possible without either significant clutch damage or stalling out and rolling back into the car behind you, or both (and in SF there is always a car behind you). In fact, I have insisted that my daughter learn how to use the hand brake in concert with the clutch on steep hills primarily because I like to avoid expensive clutch replacements. Sounds like one of those macho old husband tales to me.

---

"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan

Davester - I admit I avoided Knob Hill! However, that 1956 Chevy station wagon I learned to drive on had a bit different configuration that "modern" cars. If you've never looked inside of one, do; the handle for the emergency brake was tucked up under the dashboard, on the left. The steering wheel alone was absolutely huge, and I had to sit on a cushion in order to see out over it, because the seat had minimal adjustments. I don't think I would have been able to use that brake on hills even if I'd been allowed to!

Come to New England and try Nob Hill /Russian Hill glazed with ice.

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AlphaDog
Davester - I admit I avoided Knob Hill!

Aha! Well I couldn't since my girlfriend lived right there and my only car was an MGB so good clutch/handbrake skills were critical for survival of my social life.

---

"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan

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davester

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AlphaDog
Davester - I admit I avoided Knob Hill!

Aha! Well I couldn't since my girlfriend lived right there and my only car was an MGB so good clutch/handbrake skills were critical for survival of my social life.

My cousin had an MG, so she could use the handbrake! I tried to talk my dad into getting one for me, but no dice. The best I got was a 1960 Comet, and using the hand brake wasn't any easier on that, so my skills continued to be honed.

I live in LA and agree with the majority. SF is a much more interesting and visitor friendly city. No matter how you plan it there is enough to do that you'll both go home wondering why you should.