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Device Removal warning sign: really a big deal?
Posted by: tuqqer
Date: April 25, 2006 01:10PM
I back up my G5's HD to an external FW drive once a month. I turn it on, run SuperDuper, and once it's done... I inevitably quit SuperDuper and then reach down and turn off the power to the FW drive.

This of course brings up the warning sign about Device Removal, and some dire warnings that I may have messed up my data because I didn't first drag the FW drive's icon to the trash. I cuss each time, and swear I'll remember to do the order correct next time.

My question: if I've finished accessing the drive, and even quit the program that was interacting with it (SDuper, in this case), is my data okay?



Mac mini (M1 2020, 16G 2T) Big Sur 11.x Dual 25" Acer 1440p LCDs11" i5 MacBook Air
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Re: Device Removal warning sign: really a big deal?
Posted by: papercup
Date: April 25, 2006 01:16PM
I walk on the same wild side frequently with my FW drives & cameras. Nary an issue. Yet.
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Re: Device Removal warning sign: really a big deal?
Posted by: grad
Date: April 25, 2006 01:26PM
You are a rebel.
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Re: Device Removal warning sign: really a big deal?
Posted by: tuqqer
Date: April 25, 2006 01:32PM
You are a rebel.

I do feel like a pirate sometimes for unplugging it like that.



Mac mini (M1 2020, 16G 2T) Big Sur 11.x Dual 25" Acer 1440p LCDs11" i5 MacBook Air
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Re: Device Removal warning sign: really a big deal?
Posted by: Racer X
Date: April 25, 2006 01:33PM
you really need to dismount/eject a FW/USB drive before you power it down. You can get bad data corruption if you don't.

Just because you haven't yet doesn't mean that the next time you will get away with it.
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Re: Device Removal warning sign: really a big deal?
Posted by: rgG
Date: April 25, 2006 01:41PM
I messed up a flash drive by doing that once. I had to reformat the drive and lost all the data. Nothing valuable was on there, thank goodness, but it would have been lost if there had been.





Roswell, GA (Atlanta suburb)
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Re: Device Removal warning sign: really a big deal?
Posted by: Paul F.
Date: April 25, 2006 01:41PM
It's like wearing a condom...
You might get away without, once, twice.. or dozens of times.

But one day, you will pay for your folly for going "bareback"... and pay dearly.


I do it occasionally too (uh, the power down the firewire part.. not the "bareback" part...) but I try very hard to stay in the habit of dismounting the drive FIRST...









Paul F.
-----
A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.

--

--

--
Eureka, CA
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Re: Device Removal warning sign: really a big deal?
Posted by: blooz
Date: April 25, 2006 01:42PM
Geez, you said "pirate."



And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once.
—Friedrich Nietzsche
Western Massachusetts
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Re: Device Removal warning sign: really a big deal?
Posted by: rgG
Date: April 25, 2006 01:47PM
So are we talking about dismounting the pirate now? If so, I think I may have an appropriate picture, somewhere. grinning smiley

I can look for it, if you want.





Roswell, GA (Atlanta suburb)
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Re: Device Removal warning sign: really a big deal?
Posted by: SteveJobs
Date: April 25, 2006 02:00PM
My first look at a firewire drive was at an APPLE event where Michael (Mike) Balas (some reson I rememberhis name) held above his head the small, bus-powered firewire drive with cable attached, and would proceed to unplug/plug/unplug the drive numerous time all the while we could see the desktop projected behind him respond in kind to his actions.

Apparently Apple employees don't see a problem with it.



******************************

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Re: Device Removal warning sign: really a big deal?
Posted by: PeterB
Date: April 25, 2006 02:08PM
Please, please, pleaaaaaaseeee, make sure to be protected when you insert or remove your device!

winking smiley




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: Device Removal warning sign: really a big deal?
Posted by: PeterB
Date: April 25, 2006 02:09PM
Actually, on a more serious note-- read the Technote from WiebeTech about Firewire -- it should really NOT be hotswapped.




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: Device Removal warning sign: really a big deal?
Posted by: lemmingboy
Date: April 25, 2006 02:14PM
I've had drives die from doing it.

Your right, if the bus isn't accessing the drive when you pull it, no problem, no harm and you can keep going.

However, where the crpashoot can come is that the OS does access the drive for very short periods of time at random intervals. I've had it described to me as a handshake kind of request.

If you're really unlucky and pull the drive at one of these random times the following can happen:

1) Nothing
2) The drive gets corruption than can be fixed with Disk Warrior but no immediate data loss. However your drive and data is now less stable until fixed.
3) Drive is wiped but recoverable with Disk Warrior
4) Drive is wiped and unrecoverable with Disk Warrior; possibly recoverable with a data rescue service
5) Drive is wiped and now dead
6) Drive is wiped and dead, furthermore the firewire bus on the computer is now also dead
7) Drive wiped and dead; firewire bus on computer is also dead; all other devices on firewire bus also now having problems or dead

I've seen all of the above happen. I actually got one of my first editing jobs because the previous editor did #7. And yes, though I've seen it happen, I'm not the guy pulling cables without dismounting drives anymore. Hell, these days to be safe I turn the computer off before futzing with firewire.

What I love are the producers we send cuts to on firewire drives who we give specific instructions to. We tell them clearly do not connect on unconnect drive while computer is on. This is also on instructions taped to the drive. Still they're smarter than the guys they pay to sit in a room with an Avid and literally fifty firewire drives daisy chained around themand ignore it. Then they feel justified getting mad at us.

Sorry, I'm just venting now . . .

-Shawn
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Re: Device Removal warning sign: really a big deal?
Posted by: papercup
Date: April 25, 2006 02:23PM
Once, at band camp, I disconnected my iPod wrong & got the warning, too.








Actually, I disconnect my iPod the wrong way ALWAYS! Take that!!!!!!
(It's my way of sticking it to the man.)
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Re: Device Removal warning sign: really a big deal?
Posted by: Article Accelerator
Date: April 25, 2006 02:26PM
tuqqer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I turn it on, run SuperDuper, and once
> it's done... I inevitably quit SuperDuper and then
> reach down and turn off the power to the FW drive.

Set SD to eject the drive after it's finished.

That's what I do with ChronoSync.
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Re: Device Removal warning sign: really a big deal?
Posted by: Racer X
Date: April 25, 2006 02:45PM
SteveJobs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My first look at a firewire drive was at an APPLE
> event where Michael (Mike) Balas (some reson I
> rememberhis name) held above his head the small,
> bus-powered firewire drive with cable attached,
> and would proceed to unplug/plug/unplug the drive
> numerous time all the while we could see the
> desktop projected behind him respond in kind to
> his actions.
>
> Apparently Apple employees don't see a problem
> with it.
>
> **************************************************
> ****
> PM me if you need to say something directly to me.
> I can't read all the replies.
>
>

And the employees aren't paying for data recovery services, and hardware replacement out of their own pockets either.
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Re: Device Removal warning sign: really a big deal?
Posted by: msglee
Date: April 25, 2006 02:50PM
grad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are a rebel.


Jonny Yuma was a rebel.



Bowleys Quarters MD
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Re: Device Removal warning sign: really a big deal?
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: April 25, 2006 03:19PM
I haven't had any HD damage, but one FW box would shut down my FW bus if I forgot to trash the icon before shutting down or unplugging the drive.

I try not to incur the warning. But then, I don't run with scissors, either.





Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody matters or nobody matters.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: Device Removal warning sign: really a big deal?
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: April 25, 2006 03:20PM
"...he wandered alone."





Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody matters or nobody matters.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: Device Removal warning sign: really a big deal?
Posted by: sscutchen
Date: April 25, 2006 03:20PM
I had an iMac connected to my PMac in target mode for backing up the iMac. I shut it down without dragging the drive off first, and it corrupted the drive to where the iMac would not boot. Luckily, I had a brand new backup! I reinstalled the OS, then did a restore from the backup. Took time, but no data loss.

Still pissed me off big time. I felt like such an idot.





Don't ask who the bell's for, dude. It's you.
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Re: Device Removal warning sign: really a big deal?
Posted by: WHiiP
Date: April 25, 2006 03:30PM
Sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't . . .

All in good time, ladies and gents, all in good time. You will all receive what is coming to you . . . grinning smiley

Except Paul F.: He will inherit the Pirate picture and be forced to look at it each morning when he wakes up. He will live to regret that "bareback" remark . . . grinning smiley





Bill
Flagler Beach, FL 32136

Carpe Vino!

Fermentation may have been a greater discovery than fire.
— David Rains Wallace
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Re: Device Removal warning sign: really a big deal?
Posted by: SteveJobs
Date: April 25, 2006 05:15PM
racer

duh



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Re: Device Removal warning sign: really a big deal?
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: April 25, 2006 05:44PM
In technology as in life, it's all about the cache..
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Re: Device Removal warning sign: really a big deal?
Posted by: Racer X
Date: April 25, 2006 06:48PM
SteveJobs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> racer
>
> duh
>
> **************************************************
> ****
> PM me if you need to say something directly to me.
> I can't read all the replies.
>
>

Hey, I see every day people doing stuff to work equipment they would never do with stuff they owned and paid for themselves.

Unpowered FW devices you can do that with, but there are damn few. Digital video cameras or DV bridges are the only ones I can think of. Anything using the bus for power OR with memory or a drive in it should never be pulled while powered up or mounted.
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Re: Device Removal warning sign: really a big deal?
Posted by: BigGuynRusty
Date: April 25, 2006 06:55PM
Racer X Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> you really need to dismount/eject a FW/USB drive
> before you power it down. You can get bad data
> corruption if you don't.
>
> Just because you haven't yet doesn't mean that the
> next time you will get away with it.


Listen to RacerX, he is wise in the ways of hardware!

So SJ, if an Apple employee jumped off a cliff, would you?

BGnR
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Re: Device Removal warning sign: really a big deal?
Posted by: chas_m
Date: April 25, 2006 11:15PM
I've lost data and corrupted directories by disconnecting FW drives improperly.

Here's the deal: even if you've quit the app in question, Mac OS X (and lots of other programs) like to write log info. TONS of it. Depending on how your drives are set up, it's quite easy for an external to be reading or writing data to it even with no obvious program activity going on. Pick that moment for a disconnect, and disaster is sure to follow.

So don't play games. Dismount the thing properly, and if you ever forget and get away with it, assume yourself VERY lucky that particular time.



chas_m




[crawlingfromtheusa.blogspot.com] <-- Moving to Canada blog
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Re: Device Removal warning sign: really a big deal?
Posted by: fmgtech
Date: April 25, 2006 11:34PM
He got fightin mad this rebel lad.....when the only law was a hook and a draw.

One time I returned a video to the rental store and didn't rewind. You might call me a rebel. You can't stop me. I'll do it again.

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Re: Device Removal warning sign: really a big deal?
Posted by: SteveJobs
Date: April 26, 2006 06:13AM
Yo guys. Lay off the bad logic of thinking I DO THAT just because I laughed about Michael Balas doing it.

I would not do most things people stupid enough to work for Apple would do.

But, racer does make a good distinction. I'll disregard work equipment with little thought compared to that of MY STUFF. Nothing personal to work. I just don't have time to baby stuff.



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Re: Device Removal warning sign: really a big deal?
Posted by: Mr645
Date: April 26, 2006 07:21AM
I have had several devices corrupted by doing this. I have never had any issues with simple recovery, but the directory can get scrambled. I would definatly stop the practice and start unmounting the drive first.

Jon
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