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Macs require more support than Wintel?
Posted by: TLB
Date: April 26, 2006 08:16AM
I don't know if anyone reads InfoWorld, but they have been recently chastised for giving too much print to Apple innovations, which are "totally irrelevant to the enterprise environment". An interesting comment in the debate was in a recent editor's response to the controversy: [www.infoworld.com]

Perhaps most intriguing is the Talkback commentary from Allan Lees, a CIO who oversees an environment of Macs and PCs. Based on his analysis of help-desk tickets, he concludes, “We spend three times as long supporting Macs, per machine, as we spend supporting Windows environments. Although Macs represent 36 percent of our total desktop machines, we actually spend more hours in total on Mac issues than on Windows issues.”

This flies in the face of the typical Mac users experience. What do you think the cause of his observations--unqualified tech staff, misconfigured machines, or ?

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Re: Macs require more support than Wintel?
Posted by: Jem
Date: April 26, 2006 08:26AM
Yeah, I'd guess their tech's have no clue about Macs, and thus take 3 times as long to fix things because they are looking for PC solutions, which aren't there.
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Re: Macs require more support than Wintel?
Posted by: sscutchen
Date: April 26, 2006 08:28AM
Different use? The Macs might be using more complicated software for graphics design work, for example...

Are his techs spending more time on OS and hardware issues? Software applications support?

This statement means nothing without any details.





Don't ask who the bell's for, dude. It's you.
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Re: Macs require more support than Wintel?
Posted by: BigGuynRusty
Date: April 26, 2006 08:29AM
He is a liar, it has been proven in study after study, that Macs require much less support than Windows. My personal experience in doing Mac support since 1984, DOS, Windows require much more hands on.

TLB Asks.:
"This flies in the face of the typical Mac users experience. What do you think the cause of his observations--unqualified tech staff, misconfigured machines, or ?"

Fear.

BGnR
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Re: Macs require more support than Wintel?
Posted by: Harry in MI
Date: April 26, 2006 08:30AM
Well a 35% Mac shop sounds like maybe a Graphics shop or Print or something similar. A bunch of Dells doing Word, email, and billing versus the Mac's doing all the high tech creative stuff.

Or just an Apple hating CIO lying.
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Re: Macs require more support than Wintel?
Posted by: BigGuynRusty
Date: April 26, 2006 08:37AM
Mr. Lees Complete Comment.:
"As the CIO of an independent research institute I was intrigued to read the Editor's Letter of April 3, 2006. More than most organizations, we have to live with a mixed environment of Apple Mac and Wintel. We have several Mac devotees who have used the platform since college and, as professional academics, are immune to the pressures that have led to the spread of the Windows OS throughout the business world. As a former Mac user myself I came to the situation with an open mind and no axe to grind. There were opinions on all sides ("Macs are wonderful, Windows is evil" to "Macs are great... as paperweights").

Here's what the data showed when we analyzed six months of helpdesk trouble-tickets:

We spend three times as long supporting Macs, per machine, as we spend supporting Windows environments.

Although Macs represent 36% of our total desktop machines we actually spend more hours in total on Mac issues than on Windows issues.

If we abandoned Macs we could save the equivalent of one full-time senior systems support engineer, or about $90,000 per year including all associated costs. And this is for an organization that has fewer than 170 people and which depends on declining NIH grant income.

As you would expect, the vast majority of our problems with Macs come from the fact that Apple has no interest in providing connectivity software. This is left to Microsoft and a dwindling number of small companies that typically ship late and ship buggy products. Regardless of the virtues or otherwise of the Mac OS, the fact that it has zero market share in the commercial world means that almost no-one invests in creating the software that would be needed to enable Macs to integrate into the business world effectively. If not for Microsoft, Macs would be almost incapable of interacting on standard corporate-type networks.

Mac users typically are out of touch with the reality of the current Windows OS and adjunct software (one die-hard Mac user was astonished that Microsoft actually wrote a Remote Desktop application that enables him to access his Wintel machine from his Mac). They imagine the Mac OS is still as superior to Windows as it was in 1993. Ultimately they have an emotional attachment to their machines and OS that is, to borrow Kierkegaard's formulation, "beyond reason."

We will continue to support Macs to the best of our ability because our scientists continue to rely on them as personal computers. But it appears obvious, now that Microsoft actually spends twice as much on Mac-related applications as Apple itself, that Macs are stand-alone machines, destined for an honorable mention in the history of computing, rather than a viable go-forward platform.

Sincerely,

Allan Lees

Posted by: Allan Lees at April 5, 2006 12:12 PM"

He is truly touched in the head.

The big giveaway.:
" As a former Mac user myself"

BGnR
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Re: Macs require more support than Wintel?
Posted by: ArtP
Date: April 26, 2006 08:55AM
My first thought was a Networking issue.

Probably the Windows based networking software doesn't "peer" inside of the Macs like it does Windows to watch a users every move like with the Windows machines on the network.
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Re: Macs require more support than Wintel?
Posted by: bangman
Date: April 26, 2006 09:02AM
FUD.



---------
3GHz - The clock is STILL ticking Steve.
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Re: Macs require more support than Wintel?
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: April 26, 2006 09:06AM
The TOC issue is a thorny one. Comments from most Windows shops that have a few 'mac devotees' in them usually mean that the help desk personnel have no clue how to connect a Mac to an Active Directory network, etc, etc, etc..

You have to realize that most help desk calls do NOT involve the operating system. They involve the network or applications. A call to find out 'how do I make this text in Word show up red' is not a Windows vs. Mac problem- it's a Word problem. Unfortunately, Macs are not immune to application complexity. Word is complex on ANY OS. Quark even more so. The role of the help desk as 'mommy' to all computer related questions should more properly be used as proof that more and better training or skill vetting is needed.

I would be interested to see data from any forum member who manages such a mixed network.
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Re: Macs require more support than Wintel?
Posted by: Jem
Date: April 26, 2006 09:17AM
"If not for Microsoft, Macs would be almost incapable of interacting on standard corporate-type networks. "

The irony with the above sentence, is that it is BECAUSE of Microsoft's near-monopolistic dominance that development of non-MS solutions has withered for all other platforms, Mac or otherwise.

Should we blame Microsoft for their stifling effect on development, or praise them for their meager attempts to include Apple in their corporate network environments? Mr. Lees bias is clearly on display here.
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Re: Macs require more support than Wintel?
Posted by: ajakeski
Date: April 26, 2006 09:23AM
Sounds like they need to hire new techs. I can trouble shoot both Mac and Windoz. We all know Mac OS is much easier to get around in compared to windoz




I'm not a bad guy! I work hard, and I love my kids. So why should I spend half my Sunday hearing about how I'm going to Hell? -Homer.
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Re: Macs require more support than Wintel?
Posted by: TLB
Date: April 26, 2006 09:28AM
[www.buckinstitute.org]

Looks like a beautiful campus, I wouldn't mind working there--after all, he is still going to support Macs, albeit reluctantly.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2006 09:29AM by TLB.
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Re: Macs require more support than Wintel?
Posted by: ztirffritz
Date: April 26, 2006 09:34AM
I would be very interested too in hearing from any forum members that operate in a mixed OS environment. For awhile, I had 7 computers in my home all using the same network. The 1 Windows computer was the most problematic. The Wireless networking tools in the early editions of XP were next to useless. I realize that my 7-computer sample is not a useful sample size, but I do manage an 80 computer XP network with 3 W2k3 servers, so I'm not helpless with windows and I still couldn't figure out some of its problems. To be fair, XP has gotten much better. I think that the MS business model is bass-ackwards. They release an unfinished product for sale and by the time they finish it, they release the next unfinished product. XP is just now becoming useful in my opinion. I'm really not looking forward to Vista.

I've heard some really terrible things about Vista from people who are usually very ardent windows supporters. MS has tried to push security heavily, but they're doing it all wrong. In the manufacturing business they say "you can't inspect quality into a product". This means that inspections will only detect if a product is already good or bad. Any manufacturing types will tell you that your money is better spent perfecting the process to prevent failures than on detecting the process failures. Microsoft is pushing the security to the end of the user interaction and asking the user about every little interaction. It is intrusive to the point of making the OS near unusable according to many. It results in no less than 6 windows open at once waiting for a response before you can delete a file and move it to the recycle bin. This tells me that Microsoft has undertaken the task of determining where the security vulnerabilities are in the their OS, but they don't have the balls to close the holes because it would cost them backwards compatibility. Intstead they've pushed the problem onto the user so that they can say "we told you so" when things go wrong. Someone VERY high up in the company needs to stand up and say "this is stupid. We're bailing water from one sinking boat to another. Fix the damned thing."



**************************************
MacResource User Map: [www.zeemaps.com]#
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Re: Macs require more support than Wintel?
Posted by: jdc
Date: April 26, 2006 09:58AM
i can only give my personal experience as sorta regular guy

4 macs -- 2 G5s and 2 G4s all running the same apps all day: Quark, InDesign, Illustrator, Photoshop, Suitcase, Word, Excel, Entrourage, Safari and whatever else we need

total spent on IT over the last 2 years: $100 on drive genius/disk rescue, which i have yet to use or even install

other office i work in: 10 peecees, most new. running word, excel and ACT from a server (which runs windows 2003) -- at least $10,000 in the last 6 months. part of that was an upgrade to ACT and its installation.

but even for just updating norton anti virus they call in the tech.

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Re: Macs require more support than Wintel?
Posted by: Seacrest
Date: April 26, 2006 10:16AM
CIO is a title generally given to those DeVry graduates who exhibit no technical skill whatsoever, but excel at leaving lip marks on the right posteriors.





I am not Ryan Seacrest, and I do not approve this message.
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Re: Macs require more support than Wintel?
Posted by: BigGuynRusty
Date: April 26, 2006 10:22AM
Seacrest Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> CIO is a title generally given to those DeVry
> graduates who exhibit no technical skill
> whatsoever, but excel at leaving lip marks on the
> right posteriors.

So true SC, so very, very true!

BGnR
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Re: Macs require more support than Wintel?
Posted by: shadow
Date: April 26, 2006 10:48AM
As I read and re-read that letter several times, I can't even begin to comprehend was this guy is talking about.

There are only two things I can think of that could make his ramblings have any semblance of reality:

(1) They are still running Mac OS 9.
(2) They chose other solutions (eg - NAS and SAN) whose support documentation looked like this:

This product supports the following Operating Systems:

- Microsoft Windows 98, 2000, 2003, XP
- Apple Macintosh (*)
- Linux (*)

(*) OS supported via expensive add-on X, Virtual PC, and virgin goat sacrifice.

Obviously, this is Apple's fault.

- Shadow
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Re: Macs require more support than Wintel?
Posted by: Donkey Hotay
Date: April 26, 2006 11:40AM
> commentary from Allan Lees, a CIO who oversees an environment of Macs and PCs

Membership in the C suite neither requires nor grants intelligence, knowledge or ability.

The crunch in Mr. Lees' pipe is past its expiration date.

And his 'crack' support team needs a lot more training.



=DH
Donkey (Ye Olde Farte of ye Internette) Hotay is a Tilted Windmill® enterprise.
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Re: Macs require more support than Wintel?
Posted by: Silencio
Date: April 26, 2006 12:12PM
"CIO is a title generally given to those DeVry graduates who exhibit no technical skill whatsoever, but excel at leaving lip marks on the right posteriors."

As Larry David once said, "Bingo! Bing-GOOOOOOOOOOoooo!"

CIO is not a technical position, it is a political position.

Unfortunately, I do agree to a point that Apple doesn't care enough about the enterprise market, but they know full well which customers butter their bread and it's working out pretty well for them. With the Intel transition and Vista being the never-ending nightmare that it is, Apple does have a nice window of opportunity to make an impact in the enterprise market if they can get their act together.
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