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Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: June 10, 2010 01:50PM
this just in to CNN

"A teenage girl attempting to sail solo around the world has gone missing after sending out distress signals in the Indian Ocean, according to a CNN affiliate in her hometown.

Abby Sunderland, 16, of Thousand Oaks, California, has not been heard from since losing contact with her family during a storm Thursday, her brother told CNN affiliate KTLA in Los Angeles."

Hope she makes it.
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: chopper
Date: June 10, 2010 01:54PM
I hate to be one of the knee-jerk forum types seen so often, but ... I get the same feeling here that I used to upon reading about early teens solo-ing in planes and flying coast to coast or etc.

Life for some is not valid without risk, I can understand that. But there is risk and then there is RISK.
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: hal
Date: June 10, 2010 01:55PM
will the local authority charge the parents with neglect?

When I first heard about the voyage, I thought it was insane.
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: June 10, 2010 01:58PM
Possibly sad outcome for a foolish endeavor.

Such an "adventure" risks much but accomplishes little, if anything.
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: AlphaDog
Date: June 10, 2010 02:03PM
My husband and I tried not to be overly protective and allowed the kid to task some risks, but there was a limit. I continue to believe parents can raise exceptional children without allowing exceptional risk. I am very sad to hear of this, but, like DeusxMac, I never saw the real point.
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: JoeM
Date: June 10, 2010 02:07PM
I just came over to post it and saw the thread. This is what gets me more than anything else:

"...The timing of Abby's trip was criticized by some because it was going to place her in the middle of the Indian Ocean when the stormy Southern Hemisphere winter was at hand."

[www.grindtv.com]

What are these people thinking?



JoeM
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: Paul F.
Date: June 10, 2010 02:11PM
Contrary to the rest of the posters, I have no problem with kids undertaking properly trained and supervised endeavors...
It beats over coddling them, and then throwing them to the wolves on their 18th birthday - somehow magically thinking that never having faced ANY form of trial or danger, they're somehow prepared because it's been 6,570 days since their birth.




She's got my prayers!



Paul F.
-----
A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.

--

--

--
Eureka, CA
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: June 10, 2010 02:11PM
I will point out that one of my daughter's high school classmates, Katie Spotz, successfully rowed across the Atlantic earlier this year. Her 'endurance trial' work is all tied to raising money and increasing awareness for clean water for the world.

Endurance trials and solo attempts like this are the model for those of us who have the 'adventuring' instinct strong in their hearts. As a parent, I worry about things, but as a (previously) adventurous teen, I understand the attraction.

Life is short. Accepting limits and not following your heart is a way to the long decline into angry adulthood, regretful senescence, and unremarked death.
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: 3d
Date: June 10, 2010 02:13PM
Media trifecta: blonde + pretty + tragedy.
Hope they find her.
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: billb
Date: June 10, 2010 02:17PM
would you let your 14 year old compete in the Olympics after training for it their whole life ?

I hope she's OK.
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: AlphaDog
Date: June 10, 2010 02:20PM
Quote
billb
would you let your 14 year old compete in the Olympics after training for it their whole life ?

Exactly how does that compare to being alone in the middle of the Indian Ocean? I fail to see the connection.
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: nwyaker
Date: June 10, 2010 02:21PM
cbelt3, well said !

Being a sailor since I was 14 ( now 63 and still sailing ) and having done quite a bit of single-handing, I do understand why she's out there.

She's in trouble, but not necessarily lost. The boat has probably rolled and/or been dismasted, but not necessarily sunk.
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: AlphaDog
Date: June 10, 2010 02:22PM
Quote
Paul F.
Contrary to the rest of the posters, I have no problem with kids undertaking properly trained and supervised endeavors...

Are you saying her supervisors are lost misplaced in the Indian Ocean, too?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/10/2010 02:23PM by AlphaDog.
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: billb
Date: June 10, 2010 02:30PM
Quote
AlphaDog
Quote
billb
would you let your 14 year old compete in the Olympics after training for it their whole life ?

Exactly how does that compare to being alone in the middle of the Indian Ocean? I fail to see the connection.


You are not any less dead if you snap your neck on a gymnastics floor than if you drown in the middle of no where or your bathtub.
Extreme competitions entail a degree of risk.
One of those risks is loss of life.
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: davester
Date: June 10, 2010 02:38PM
I agree with Paul F, cbelt3 and billb. This was something she wanted to do and was prepared for. She knew the risks and was obviously mature enough to weigh them.

A few thoughts:

Napoleon Bonaparte
The torment of precautions often exceeds the dangers to be avoided. It is sometimes better to abandon one's self to destiny.

Philip Adams:
It seems to me that people have vast potential. Most people can do extraordinary things if they have the confidence or take the risks. Yet most people don't. They sit in front of the telly and treat life as if it goes on forever.

Jean-Claude Killy:
To win you have to risk loss.

Robert F. Kennedy
Only those who dare to fail greatly can ever achieve greatly.

Robert H. Schuller
What great thing would you attempt if you knew you could not fail?


Aleksander Solzhenitsyn
If one is forever cautious, can one remain a human being?


André Gide
It is only in adventure that some people succeed in knowing themselves - in finding themselves.

Friedrich Von Schiller:
He that is over-cautious will accomplish little.

Diane Ackerman:
I don't want to come to the end of my life and find that I have just lived the length of it. I want to have lived the width of it as well.

A. E. Hotchner:
I would rather fail in an attempt at something new and uncharted than safely succeed in a repeat of something I have done.

Arthur Koestler:
If the creator had a purpose in equipping us with a neck, he surely meant us to stick it out.


Erica Jong:
If you don't risk anything, you risk even more.

Alberto Salazar:
If you want to achieve a high goal, you're going to have to take some chances.



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: decay
Date: June 10, 2010 02:38PM
Quote
AlphaDog
Quote
billb
would you let your 14 year old compete in the Olympics after training for it their whole life ?

Exactly how does that compare to being alone in the middle of the Indian Ocean? I fail to see the connection.

I agree. It's a much higher risk, with less management/control.

I wish her luck, but she knew (or her trainers/parents should have known) the major risks of this endeavour.



---
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: June 10, 2010 02:53PM
I've been following her progress, her blog was predicting 50+ knot gail winds today.

She has proven herself to be very accomplished and her boat is designed to float even if flooded.

Her electronics were doused with seawater a few days ago, that knocked out her Thane & Thane satellite uplink. It may have done more damage as well. The good news is her automatic EPIRB has not gone off (it does automatically when submerged).

Fingers crossed



Here is the last blog update from her parents earlier today:

We spoke with Abby early this morning and learned that she had had a very rough day with winds up to 60 knots and seas 20-25 feet. She had been knocked down several times but was handling things well. The wind had subsided to around 35 knots which she and Wild Eyes are quite comfortable with.

We were helping her troubleshoot her engine that she was trying to start to charge her systems. Satellite phone reception was patchy. She was able to get the water out of the engine and start her up. We were waiting to hear back from her when American Search & Rescue authorities called to report having received a signal from her emergency beacon (EPIRB). We initially thought that the signal was sent automatically from her water-activated EPIRB and that it had been activated during one of her knockdowns. As we pulled the paperwork from her EPIRB registration, we learned that the signal had come from her manually activated EPIRB.

We were referred to Australian Search & Rescue and while we were on the phone with them another signal came in from her handheld PLB (Personal Locator Beacon). Her water-activated EPIRB has not been activated so we are hopeful that the boat is still upright.

We are working closely with American, French and Australian Search & Rescue authorities to coordinate several ships in the area to divert to her location. There are several ships in her area, the earliest possible contact is 40 hours. We are actively seeking out some sort of air rescue but this is difficult due to the remoteness of her location. Australian Search & Rescue have arranged to have a Quantas Airbus fly over her location at first light (she is 11 hours later). They will not be able to help her other than to talk via marine radio if they are able to get close enough. Hopefully, they will be able to assess her situation and report back to us.

Abby has all of the equipment on board to survive a crisis situation like this. She has a dry suit, survival suit, life raft, and ditch bag with emergency supplies. If she can keep warm and hang on, help will be there as soon as possible. Wild Eyes is designed for travel in the Southern Ocean and is equipped with 5 air-tight bulkheads to keep her buoyant in the event of major hull damage. It is built to Category 0 standards and is designed to self-right in the event of capsize.

Thank you for all of your kind emails and calls. We appreciate your prayers and support.

We will update as soon as there is some news.

Laurence, Marianne and Team Abby



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.” -- François de La Rochefoucauld

"Those who cannot accept the past are condemned to revise it." -- Geo. Mathias

The German word for contraceptive is “Schwangerschaftsverhütungsmittel”. By the time you finished saying that, it’s too late



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/10/2010 03:09PM by Ombligo.
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: billb
Date: June 10, 2010 03:11PM
Thrane and Thrane.
and it's pronounced Tron and Tron.

Sailor 250


[www.thrane.com]


not just any kid in a canoe
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: June 10, 2010 03:18PM
well, she should be able to drink booze legally, that's for sure~!



Hurts like a bastid...
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: Mike Johnson
Date: June 10, 2010 03:54PM
Until we ban wrestling, football, gymnastics and competitive cheerleading for minors, I'll support youth sailing.
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: June 10, 2010 03:55PM
Quote
billb
You are not any less dead if you snap your neck on a gymnastics floor than if you drown in the middle of no where or your bathtub.
Extreme competitions entail a degree of risk.
One of those risks is loss of life.

A fallacy of oversimplification eye rolling smiley

False Analogy: Takes two or more objects which are similar in some ways and makes an unwarranted inference about the additional ways in which such objects could be similar.
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: billb
Date: June 10, 2010 03:58PM
If you want to believe dead by different means is less dead somehow - go for it.
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: robfilms
Date: June 10, 2010 04:20PM
cbelt3-

thanks for the post

i can offer fingers crossed and a silent prayer.

where there is hope...

ymmv

be well

rob
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: Jack D.
Date: June 10, 2010 04:24PM
davester, nice list of quotes but you left out one very important one:

Curly Howard:
If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do succeed. Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk.

big grin smiley



- Jack D.




New tasteless sig coming soon!
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: chopper
Date: June 10, 2010 04:47PM
Accepting limits and not following your heart is a way to the long decline into angry adulthood, regretful senescence, and unremarked death.

What a hoot.
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: graylocks
Date: June 10, 2010 05:05PM
Quote
cbelt3
I will point out that one of my daughter's high school classmates, Katie Spotz, successfully rowed across the Atlantic earlier this year. Her 'endurance trial' work is all tied to raising money and increasing awareness for clean water for the world.

Endurance trials and solo attempts like this are the model for those of us who have the 'adventuring' instinct strong in their hearts. As a parent, I worry about things, but as a (previously) adventurous teen, I understand the attraction.

Life is short. Accepting limits and not following your heart is a way to the long decline into angry adulthood, regretful senescence, and unremarked death.

though I wasn't in my teens, my mom worried about me taking on a musician's life and traveling around the country. I told her to take solace in the fact that even if something awful happened to me at least I died doing what mattered to me and was where I wanted to be at the time. I thought about that when the shuttle disaster happened. I hope this kid is okay. I understand her dream.



If you want to fix our country, work with us in the states. statesproject.org

"Success isn't about how much money you make. It is about the difference you make in people's lives."--Michelle Obama
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: RonT
Date: June 10, 2010 06:30PM
The part that ticks me off about incidents of this nature is that when the $h!t hits the fan, as it has a way of doing from time to time, the people involved not only want, but in most cases expect, anyone with the capability to help save their loved one's butt to drop everything and do just that.

And what person with the wherewithal to do so and an ounce of compassion in their body isn't going to do just that? Consequently we often end up with people needlessly endangering their lives attempting rescue some Guinness Book of Records wannabe out there doing something they knew held a real possibility of turning fatal in the first place.

End of rant. I do, however, hope things turn out alright for this young lady.
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: deckeda
Date: June 10, 2010 07:04PM
I was thinking about that as well, RonT.

Something else that caught my eye from the above blog entry quoted: it takes 40 hours to reach her? I realize the Indian Ocean ain't the local fishin' hole, but 40 hours, with boats already "in the area?"
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: davester
Date: June 10, 2010 07:11PM
I certainly don't share RonT's sentiment. What a weird thing to be ticked off about. Perhaps you expect people to just sit home and watch TV because going out into the world might cost the rest of society some extra money. Also note that in many search and rescue missions the rescue-ee gets a bill for the rescue. Another thing...crossing oceans in sailboats is an extremely common practice. It's not as though she was doing some daredevil crazy thing.

Deckeda, considering that a typical random ship out there is only able to make about 20 mph tops in significant seas that means 40 hours would give them a range of 800 miles. That is a pretty short distance given the remoteness and size of the southern Indian Ocean. I think people get lulled by movies and TV into thinking that zipping all over the planet is quick and easy.



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/10/2010 07:14PM by davester.
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: RonT
Date: June 10, 2010 07:50PM
Davester if you're gonna respond to what I wrote, respond to what I wrote. Not what you think or hope I wrote. Your comments leave me wondering about your reading comprehension. NO WHERE in my post did I mention the words "Cost" or "Money."

But since you brought the subject up, while I don't expect people to just sit home and twiddle their thumbs it would be nice when they decide to throw caution to the wind for the sake of "fun" and they get their a$S in a sling as a result they be required to pay for their own rescue. Why should the taxpayer, or in the case of the nearest ship to this unfortunate young lady have to foot the bill?

And while you may be correct in that a lot of sailboats cross the ocean I can't help but wonder how many do so for such a frivolous reason?
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: Paul F.
Date: June 10, 2010 08:17PM
Quote

Why should the taxpayer, or in the case of the nearest ship to this unfortunate young lady have to foot the bill?

More than 2000 years of human tradition. Sailors render aid to other sailors in need.


Quote

And while you may be correct in that a lot of sailboats cross the ocean I can't help but wonder how many do so for such a frivolous reason?

Of course, we should only rescue people who are at sea for reasons YOU consider "non-frivolous".



Paul F.
-----
A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.

--

--

--
Eureka, CA
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: davester
Date: June 10, 2010 09:27PM
Quote
RonT
Davester if you're gonna respond to what I wrote, respond to what I wrote. Not what you think or hope I wrote. Your comments leave me wondering about your reading comprehension. NO WHERE in my post did I mention the words "Cost" or "Money."

Sorry to misinterpret you. Since you talked about those with the capability to help dropping everything to rush to the rescue, to me that seemed synonymous with mobilizing rescue organizations, which are in the business of doing exactly that, and they do cost a significant amount of money both to maintain and to mobilize. The mobilization of ships or boats in the vicinity to attempt rescue is simply an age-old seafaring tradition and expectation, as pointed out by Paul. I'm not sure who other than rescue organizations or fellow mariners you are concerned about who would be expected to rush to someone's aid for no compensation.

Quote

But since you brought the subject up, while I don't expect people to just sit home and twiddle their thumbs it would be nice when they decide to throw caution to the wind for the sake of "fun" and they get their a$S in a sling as a result they be required to pay for their own rescue.

That is a very inaccurate description of the situation. This person in no way threw caution to the wind. She is a very well prepared and highly experienced sailor sailing in a very well equipped boat and even diverted to Capetown when she determined that her boat needed work in order to complete the voyage safely.

Quote

Why should the taxpayer, or in the case of the nearest ship to this unfortunate young lady have to foot the bill?

The cost of maintaining a search and rescue organization and a certain amount of response is generally an integral part of the budget of government organizations. Extraneous costs associated with special rescue efforts for people who break rules or are otherwise negligent are very often billed to the rescue-ee. This is no different from maintaining a fire department, police department or military to take care of public welfare. The fire department doesn't check to make sure that you were doing something considered non-frivolous before they rush to your aid.



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/10/2010 09:31PM by davester.
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: Markintosh
Date: June 10, 2010 11:17PM
Adding one of my favorite quotes, and often used to explain my behaviors....

"Life is a daring adventure, or nothing at all." - Helen Keller



“Live your life, love your life, don’t regret…live, learn and move forward positively.” – CR Johnson
Loving life in Lake Tahoe, CA



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/10/2010 11:17PM by Markintosh.
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: haikuman
Date: June 10, 2010 11:47PM
I will add 2 quotes of unknown origin that may or may not apply. The third quote is by Richard Farina.

"there is a fine line between a rut and a groove"

"a good captain avoids crisis situations"

"scenes are for making" R.F.

Pushing the envelope has been a liability of mine . That said, I have enjoyed this life immensely.
I hope she survives this challenge. My thoughts and prayers have been transmitted in Abbys' direction.

Rudie
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: Mike Johnson
Date: June 10, 2010 11:57PM
I've never needed rescue, nor tendered it. My dad, though? Both, several times. One time he was on a sailboat off Ensenada when a hurricane came up the coast, and they had to abandon ship. The USCG picked them up in a helicopter. Another time, he and a couple buddies were shipwrecked on a desert island in the Sea of Cortez with no water. And then there was the time his friend was shot in the gut by banditos several miles off the highway and in the middle of nowhere.

He also performed CPR and saved the life of a neighbor, who went on to live another fifteen years. One time when a gale picked up at the Bahia, a pescadero didn't make it back by dark. My dad headed out into the storm, scouring the coast until he found the poor guy. He'd been holding on to his anchor rope with bare hands to keep his panga from breaking up on the rocks or tearing apart from the anchor line, and had stripped the flesh on his fingers down to the bone. My dad says they were lucky to make it back to port. As a policeman, he rescued a woman who was being gang raped by a motorcycle club that had killed her boyfriend and surely would have killed her, too. There was a bounty on his head after that.

The people who need rescuing are often the same people who rescue others. But still, people risk their lives to rescue others not because the lost or injured expects it. They do it because every life has incalculable value and promise.

Yes, I too am troubled by some of the recent news stories about yokels taking a cell phone on a long hike with the plan to call 911 when they get to the end and want a ride back. I worry that the use of PLBs are causing skiers and snowboarders to head off trail.

I don't think we can lump Abby Sunderland in with the irresponsible ones. I had one reservation about her quest -- as a hobbyist sailor who lives in the same area as she and her brother, the topic comes up regularly. I thought it was a mistake to head out in a recently purchased boat. It's probably why she had to pull into port when her autopilots stopped working. On the other hand, it's a good boat for sailing solo around the world.

I'll probably be up late tonight, waiting for any updates. Don't think that this has to end badly.
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: Sam3
Date: June 11, 2010 12:56AM
I'm a bit surprised that there wasn't a support boat and crew following her, just in case something like this came up and she needed immediate assistance. Most long-distance swimmers have support crews following them.
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: bik
Date: June 11, 2010 01:51AM
I'm disturbed by the number of opinions that sound a bit like "life is boring and meaningless if you're not willing to put it at risk."

This kid wants to be the youngest to sail around the world. Sorry, that's not a good enough reason to risk life and limb.

Every kid wants lots of things, many of them unreasonable. They're kids. That's what they do. But this is a person's very life. This is a 16-year old kid wanting to do something potentially deadly, just because she wanted it. And the parents supported that. Completely irresponsible. Some say not. But yes, it was and is irresponsible parenting. Completely and unquestionably.

A 16-year old sailing around the world WITH someone would still be a pretty adventurous kid.

How about waiting 'til oh, say, 25 years old before sailing around the world solo? Would that be a sign of a boring and overly cautious life? I don't think so. But maybe I'm just boring and overly cautious.

Anybody who is saying a 16-yo is an "experienced" sailor is just being silly. This whole thing was foolhardy, even if the outcome turns our OK.

We don't let 16-year olds do whatever they want because they would often make bad decisions. It is up to parents to practice good judgment and guide their children to make good decisions, even after 18 years.

I hope Abby is OK, but I hope her parents learn something important from this.

I don't know why I'm so worked up about this. I just don't understand the perspective of a parent who could make peace with a child potentially dying, as long as they were "doing something they love." It's your freaking flesh and blood -- your child, you fools!

Aack. Sorry...
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: davester
Date: June 11, 2010 02:05AM
This just in...an aircraft overflew her position and talked to her on the radio. She is apparently fine and the boat is upright but she needs assistance. I'm wondering if she flipped and was dismasted or injured so that she can't sail.



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: davester
Date: June 11, 2010 02:17AM
Quote
bik
Every kid wants lots of things, many of them unreasonable. They're kids. That's what they do. But this is a person's very life. This is a 16-year old kid wanting to do something potentially deadly, just because she wanted it. And the parents supported that. Completely irresponsible. Some say not. But yes, it was and is irresponsible parenting. Completely and unquestionably.

A 16-year old sailing around the world WITH someone would still be a pretty adventurous kid.

How about waiting 'til oh, say, 25 years old before sailing around the world solo? Would that be a sign of a boring and overly cautious life? I don't think so. But maybe I'm just boring and overly cautious.

Many in the US don't seem to have any difficulty sending 18-year olds off to die in wars. In many cultures and previously in our culture they were sent off at a much younger age. How is that not worse than this scenario. When I was coming of age the government was forcing 18 year olds to serve in Viet Nam and endure an extremely high risk of death or maiming.

There are plenty of kids who are brought up in bad neighborhoods in the US who face far greater risks than those faced by Abby who is incredibly well prepared for what she's doing. How about people who subject their kids to second hand smoke, allow their kids to walk along busy roadways or don't make their kids wear seatbelts? There are plenty of those people and the risks are probably substantially higher than those Abby is facing. I suggest that you're simply projecting your fear of circumnavigating the world in a sailboat unprepared upon somebody who is quite prepared for the task.

It's true that some 16 or 18 year olds aren't mature enough to sail the world (or fight in a war for that matter), but people mature at different rates. From reading all the articles about Abby I have the distinct impression that she was more worldly than many 25 year olds I've known. People (and their families) should live their lives the way they see fit, not according to the values of others. Isn't that what this country's about?...the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/11/2010 02:22AM by davester.
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: June 11, 2010 05:09AM
Quote
davester
This just in...an aircraft overflew her position and talked to her on the radio. She is apparently fine and the boat is upright but she needs assistance. I'm wondering if she flipped and was dismasted or injured so that she can't sail.

The report I read said her mast and rigging were missing after rolling.

I've avoided the whole should she be doing this or not. As Monday Morning Quarterbacks it is easy for us to say yes or no. I am quite sure the issues being raised were discussed by her family and supporters long before she started this adventure. They are far more capable to measure her abilities and maturity than anyone on this board (or CNN, etc). I will not second guess them based on assumptions and generalizations.

I do find it interesting to note that society seems to have no issue with treating a 16-year-old as an adult when they break the law but then calls the same age individual a child when they try something outside our comfort zone.



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.” -- François de La Rochefoucauld

"Those who cannot accept the past are condemned to revise it." -- Geo. Mathias

The German word for contraceptive is “Schwangerschaftsverhütungsmittel”. By the time you finished saying that, it’s too late
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: Lux Interior
Date: June 11, 2010 07:00AM
She bought the boat. She knew what she was getting into.

I say, let her sink!
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: bik
Date: June 11, 2010 09:19AM
Davester, I think we agree that the parents and the family have the right to live their lives the way they wish. I don't dispute those rights.

Similarly, when a 16-year old makes international news doing something risky, I have a right to share an opinion about it.

My opinion is not about projecting my fear on others. It's this:
If I am a parent of a 25-year old who dies doing something they love, I would be devastated.

If I am a parent of a 16-year old who dies doing something risky because she wanted to "be special" then I would be devastated, AND I would have absolutely failed as a parent.

The kid is 16 and has been sailing for 3 years. Say all you want about her experience and preparedness. She's 16.

Abby's brother set this record when he was 17. She wants to beat it. She's the second of 7 kids.

Which of the Sutherland kids will NOT get to be special? At what age is sailing the world in rough seas too much for a kid? Will a 15-year old be too young? 14? With 5 younger siblings I guess we'll leave the record alone when it's set by an 11-year old. Does that sound about right?

BTW - all those other scenarios you listed are bad situations. That does not make this parental decision a good one.
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: Racer X
Date: June 11, 2010 09:42AM
Robin Lee Graham took off in 1965, 45 years ago, at 16. No sat phones, no GPS, 24' boat. No hoopla either, as there was no interwebs or CNN back then.
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: graylocks
Date: June 11, 2010 10:03AM
Quote
bik

The kid is 16 and has been sailing for 3 years. Say all you want about her experience and preparedness. She's 16.

Abby's brother set this record when he was 17. She wants to beat it. She's the second of 7 kids.

Which of the Sutherland kids will NOT get to be special? At what age is sailing the world in rough seas too much for a kid? Will a 15-year old be too young? 14? With 5 younger siblings I guess we'll leave the record alone when it's set by an 11-year old. Does that sound about right?

BTW - all those other scenarios you listed are bad situations. That does not make this parental decision a good one.

3years? NPR story this morning said this is a serious boating family. The kids were out on the water practically before they could walk. Me at 16? no way. My 16 year old son? Forget it. But are all 16 year old kids alike? Nope. Her parents know her skills and preparation. It was that family's call.



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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: davester
Date: June 11, 2010 11:18AM
Yeah, I'm wondering where that 3 years number comes from. Perhaps she's only been singlehanding for three years (which would be longer than most sailors).



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: bik
Date: June 11, 2010 11:25AM
Quote
graylocks
3years? NPR story this morning said this is a serious boating family. The kids were out on the water practically before they could walk.

You're right. Sorry, I think I meant solo sailing. I know that she's been boating with the family since she was very young. I read one report that indicated she had been sailing since she was 13, and I took that to mean soloing. I could be mistaken about that.

[www.ireport.com]

Quote
graylocks
But are all 16 year old kids alike? Nope. Her parents know her skills and preparation. It was that family's call.
No, all 16-year olds are not alike. But they all share one thing -- they are 16. They are less experienced than they will be at 18 or 20, if they make it to 18 or 20.

Preparation is great, but sometimes the world throws out the unexpected. Teenagers are less experienced at understanding the consequences of rushing into the unknown.

You know that thing where people always believe "it can't happen to me" until it happens to them? That phenomenon is infinitely stronger in kids, who haven't actually seen much adversity.

When I find out about some true adversity this kid has survived, and then I'll believe she was actually "prepared."

You're also right that it was that parents' call. That doesn't mean it was a good call.
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: maco
Date: June 11, 2010 11:35AM
I am very grateful that my parents allowed me to have many a great adventure.
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: bik
Date: June 11, 2010 11:36AM
I don't mean to argue with anyone. I'm just saying how I feel about it. People feel differently about these things and that's OK.

It's funny, we have some family friends who lost a child at 20 and the parents seemed to deal with it very differently.

This kid was in what happened to be a boating accident. He was fishing with 2 friends in very rough water. It was a bad decision to be out there on that evening. The small boat went over.
One of the three made it to shore.
One was pulled out of the water alive
The family friend was pulled out too late. Water was too cold.

The father, who happens to be a police officer, was very stoic. He very matter-of-factly told people that his kid made one really bad decision in his life, and he paid for it.

The mother, on the other hand, was inconsolable. The fact that he was a good kid, loved fishing, and had done it quite a lot doesn't really ease her loss.

Just different...
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Re: Say a Prayer: Abby Sutherland missing in the Indian Ocean
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: June 11, 2010 06:22PM
Quote
Mike Johnson
I've never needed rescue, nor tendered it. My dad, though? Both, several times. One time he was on a sailboat off Ensenada when a hurricane came up the coast, and they had to abandon ship. The USCG picked them up in a helicopter. Another time, he and a couple buddies were shipwrecked on a desert island in the Sea of Cortez with no water. And then there was the time his friend was shot in the gut by banditos several miles off the highway and in the middle of nowhere.

He also performed CPR and saved the life of a neighbor, who went on to live another fifteen years. One time when a gale picked up at the Bahia, a pescadero didn't make it back by dark. My dad headed out into the storm, scouring the coast until he found the poor guy. He'd been holding on to his anchor rope with bare hands to keep his panga from breaking up on the rocks or tearing apart from the anchor line, and had stripped the flesh on his fingers down to the bone. My dad says they were lucky to make it back to port. As a policeman, he rescued a woman who was being gang raped by a motorcycle club that had killed her boyfriend and surely would have killed her, too. There was a bounty on his head after that.

Mike's dad?



;)



It is what it is.
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