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Wow! Ghana vs Uruguay...What a match!
Posted by: davester
Date: July 03, 2010 01:36AM
That was the most tension and drama filled match I've seen yet. Simply amazing! It was on the bottom of my list to watch since there are so many superior teams playing. However, I sure am glad I watched it. Even if you generally aren't interested in football, at least watch the last half of the match. You'll be in for a treat.



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan
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Re: Wow! Ghana vs Uruguay...What a match!
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: July 03, 2010 04:58AM
Ghana got robbed.

That last second goal should have counted. The ball would have found net if the defender in the goal did not use his hands. Even if he would have headed it, his head and body were inside the goal.

Yes, they choked and blew the penalty kick, but it shouldn't have been needed.


Easily the most suspense filled game so far.



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.” -- François de La Rochefoucauld

"Those who cannot accept the past are condemned to revise it." -- Geo. Mathias

The German word for contraceptive is “Schwangerschaftsverhütungsmittel”. By the time you finished saying that, it’s too late
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Re: Wow! Ghana vs Uruguay...What a match!
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: July 03, 2010 07:39AM
Clearly the sport is way overdue for instant-replay reviews.

There have been sooo many crucial bad calls by the judges, and in a fast but low-scoring sport like this, that's played on a very large field, that just shouldn't be in this day-and-age.

Sure, before the availability of video replay the judge's/referee's/umpire's call had to stand, or they'd end up in endless "yes I did" "no I didn't" anarchy. But now there are no valid excuses for not using it.

And since the viewers and commentators have access to it, they can all immediately see whether the initial call was correct or not.
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Re: Wow! Ghana vs Uruguay...What a match!
Posted by: mattkime
Date: July 03, 2010 07:57AM
>>Clearly the sport is way overdue for instant-replay reviews.

I agree, yet the argument against it is wonderfully idealistic - the game should be played the same way everywhere in the world.

the only time when these calls particularly matter is when one team can't take control of the game.



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Re: Wow! Ghana vs Uruguay...What a match!
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: July 03, 2010 08:28AM
Quote
mattkime
>>...the argument against it is wonderfully idealistic - the game should be played the same way everywhere in the world.

the only time when these calls particularly matter is when one team can't take control of the game.

These are professionals playing in the World Cup, not the kids on the back lot, or even the college teams.

U.S. football has instant replays for the pros, but no one expects the high school games to have them; that's just silly.
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Re: Wow! Ghana vs Uruguay...What a match!
Posted by: davester
Date: July 03, 2010 09:10AM
Bad calls have nothing to do with the outcome of this game. If anything Ghana shouldn't have received the free kick which led to the handballed shot. Ghana was not "robbed". Handballs are a part of the game. Any player would have done that. He "took one for the team" by getting ejected from the game and giving Uruguay a 10% chance of winning instead of 0%. That handball was tactical, and no different than a deliberate foul in basketball or deliberately walking a player in baseball.

As to the electronic aids, I agree that it would be a good idea for goalline decisions but it is not that big a deal. Emulating the American football model would destroy the game. I think there's something to be said for the traditional FIFA philosophy. It means that you need to push to be the clearly superior team, not rely on razor edge leads.



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/03/2010 09:41AM by davester.
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Re: Wow! Ghana vs Uruguay...What a match!
Posted by: mattkime
Date: July 03, 2010 09:26AM
>>U.S. football has instant replays for the pros

thats exactly what they DON'T want instant replay to be - a bunch of people standing around waiting for a decision.



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Re: Wow! Ghana vs Uruguay...What a match!
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: July 03, 2010 11:05AM
Quote
davester
That handball was tactical, and no different than a deliberate foul in basketball or deliberately walking a player in baseball.


I disagree, a deliberate foul in basketball or an intentional walk are planned. This was not planned it was more akin to a player coming off the bench to tackle a sideline runner. There was no way that ball would not have been a goal if not for the hand. The Uruguay player was inside the goal except for his hands.

I know it doesn't work that way in Futball and what the limitations are. I even have a FIFA ref in the family. But that handball most definitely changed the outcome of the game.

In the end I doubt it will matter, I don't see that either team has the footpower to defeat the netherlands or Germany (who I expect to win, especially after watching them dissecting Argentina)

As for instant replay, it would not have mattered in this case. I don't like the idea of instant replay in any case.



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.” -- François de La Rochefoucauld

"Those who cannot accept the past are condemned to revise it." -- Geo. Mathias

The German word for contraceptive is “Schwangerschaftsverhütungsmittel”. By the time you finished saying that, it’s too late
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Re: Wow! Ghana vs Uruguay...What a match!
Posted by: mattkime
Date: July 03, 2010 11:19AM
>>The Uruguay player was inside the goal except for his hands.

that simply doesn't matter. the position of the plater doesn't matter, just the ball.



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Re: Wow! Ghana vs Uruguay...What a match!
Posted by: davester
Date: July 03, 2010 11:41AM
Quote
Ombligo
This was not planned it was more akin to a player coming off the bench to tackle a sideline runner. There was no way that ball would not have been a goal if not for the hand. The Uruguay player was inside the goal except for his hands.

That is completely untrue. There is no prohibition in soccer that keeps players out of the goal or inside the lines so the player being inside the goal is irrelevant, as pointed out by mattkime. The handball was a completely planned and brilliant tactical play and many players would have made that play. Intentional handballs are a common tactic and it is quite common for penalty kicks to be awarded for goal-denying handballs. There is absolutely no difference between that and any other tactical foul.



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/03/2010 11:42AM by davester.
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Re: Wow! Ghana vs Uruguay...What a match!
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: July 03, 2010 11:55AM
Quote
mattkime
>>The Uruguay player was inside the goal except for his hands.

that simply doesn't matter. the position of the plater doesn't matter, just the ball.

Fully aware of that - I just meant that the ball would have been in the goal if it had been blocked by any other part of the player.



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.” -- François de La Rochefoucauld

"Those who cannot accept the past are condemned to revise it." -- Geo. Mathias

The German word for contraceptive is “Schwangerschaftsverhütungsmittel”. By the time you finished saying that, it’s too late
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Re: Wow! Ghana vs Uruguay...What a match!
Posted by: davester
Date: July 03, 2010 12:27PM
BTW, here's what one of the Ghanaian players had to say about the play:
Quote

"\"We just have to put it behind us and have fun,\" said defender Rahim Ayew. \"It's part of football.\"



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/03/2010 12:28PM by davester.
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Re: Wow! Ghana vs Uruguay...What a match!
Posted by: Manlove
Date: July 03, 2010 01:16PM
This situation has arisen before (obviously) and while it seems obvious to us (via replays) that it was intentional and that it would have been a goal, what about in less clear cut cases?
Should the game stop so that someone can check the replay on the sidelines?
It seems so easy to say "Use replays, dummies!" but all that would happen is that the game would become stilted and flowless.

Personally I think American football would be improved if they allowed it to 'play' more and stopped it less, but wdik?
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Re: Wow! Ghana vs Uruguay...What a match!
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: July 03, 2010 09:23PM
Quote
davester
...tactical foul.

Usually agree with your posts, but it seems contradictory to lobby for traditional methods of judging on one hand then praise premeditated rule breaking as the way it's done now on the other.
Why was this, or any other action, designated a "foul" in the first place if not to condemn it as a move and punish its practice.

Again, we're talking about highly trained professionals at their peak of abilities; not a bunch of amateurs.
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Re: Wow! Ghana vs Uruguay...What a match!
Posted by: davester
Date: July 04, 2010 12:04AM
Quote
DeusxMac
Usually agree with your posts, but it seems contradictory to lobby for traditional methods of judging on one hand then praise premeditated rule breaking as the way it's done now on the other.
Why was this, or any other action, designated a "foul" in the first place if not to condemn it as a move and punish its practice..

There seem to be a couple of conflated concepts here. The "traditional methods of judging" concept is not relevant to the foul we were discussing (handball to deny goal-scoring opportunity) since the handball was called and the punishment meted out without the need for electronic intervention. Given the flow and non-stop high-speed action of soccer, it would be quite impossible to use instant replay to review calls without completely destroying the game, with the possible exception of goal review (including perhaps offsides runs resulting in goals). I'm somewhat for this change in high level competition, but I don't think it'll make a whole lot of difference to outcomes since such egregious calls very seldom change match outcomes.

As far as the praising of fouls, you need to realize that every game has rules which when broken have punishments of various degrees meted out. The rules of the game, including those punishments, were decided upon with the understanding that they'd be broken and to balance the advantage gained by breaking them with a punishment that would in general counteract that advantage, all without damaging the flow of the game. Balancing the decision to break that rule and accept the punishment is simply part of playing the game in every sport. The mandatory punishment for any goal-denying foul in the penalty box (handball, tripping, pushing, etc) is the same...a penalty kick, and accompanied by ejection from the game (red card) if blatant or violent. It sounds like you are calling for a higher level of punishment (free goal given against offending player) instead of a penalty kick for that foul. It's all very well to call for that, but you're basically saying that you don't agree with the rules of soccer as written so you'll have to talk to FIFA because that is most decidedly NOT part of the rules. You'll also need to figure out when changing the rules how to decide when a free goal should or should not be given since there are a whole range of shades of gray leading up to a handball deflecting a frame-centered shot. For example, should they give a free goal if a handball is used to prevent a pass to a player in a good position to shoot? It happens frequently but the punishment is a mere penalty kick, not a free goal.



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2010 12:07AM by davester.
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