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Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: BCam
Date: June 07, 2006 12:59AM
Actually, while it is politically correct to use the term "illegal immigrant" or "undocumented alien" I propose that we all start using the correct term, which is: Criminal.

By entering our country without permission or leagl authority, their first decision on their first step into the United States is to knowingly break the Law. Some talking heads I see on television news shows demonstrate great compassion for these "undocumented workers". I too can empathize, but you still can't get around the fact that "undocumented workers" are still criminals.

Do words make a difference? I think so.

Headline: 250,000 march in Los Angeles to show support for Criminals.
Headline: Texas Agriculture: Field Hands Mostly Criminals.
Headline: Phoenix Landscaper can only stay competitive by hiring Criminals.
Headline: Children of Criminals make up 38% of public schools Student Body.
Headline: State proposes Special Programs to assist Criminals.
Headline: City Council orders Police not to investigate Criminals' status.
Headline: National Guard assigned to Protect Border. Aren't allowed to stop Criminals.

How in the world do I make a case for my 15 year old daughters to be responsible and obey the law of the land, or school or family rules, when every day they see rewards for the opposite in action (by government inaction) all around them? None of those talking heads ever disuss the plight of the law abiding overseas citizen who follows the rules and makes a legal application for entry into the United States, nor do they ever discuss how far back that same person is being pushed in line while awaiting his legal entry and/or Citizenship becasue of the flood of Criminals.

Harsh? Yes. Especially from me, who is a product of early 20th Century immigrants (legal, by the way). An Austrian/Slovak couple came to this country in 1916 with three year old boy in tow. None spoke English. One boy and two girls later, that couple started several successful businesses, learned English on their own, saw to it their children learned English (spoke native tongue at home) attended public school, survived the Great Depression, graduated from college, went to War (boys were Navy combat photographer in the Pacific and fighter pilot in Europe, girls were Army Nurse in England and WASP pilot in USA). They voted, paid their taxes, bought a home and a Packard and never asked for anything special. They figured American was about what you could do, not what you could get.

My Gandparents became Americans. Not Slovak-Americans or Austrian-Americans. Just Americans. Sure they listened to the Slvoak radio station and its Polkas. Yes they were members of the Slovak speaking Sokol Social Club (man, do I remember wedding receptions as a kid and the blue neon lights in the backbar!). And Grampa loved his Tigers, and hated the Indians.

They didn't adopt this country, they inhaled it, consumed it. They weren't guest workers sending dollars back home because this WAS home. They became the bedrock Blue Collar foundation that this country was once built on. That was a choice they made, and I'm damned proud of them.

The courage of leaving behind everything they knew to come to a new country (hell, a new world for that matter) is something I might not have the sand to attempt. But the one thing they knew for a fact was that they lived their lives straight and honest. They committed to their new country heart and soul. Their dream of America was about Freedom and Justice, about Right and Wrong, about standing up and being counted.

They were Immigrants. They were legal.

Headline: 12 Million Criminals live in the US

So the next time you hear "Illegal Immigrant", "Guest Worker" or "Undocumented Alien", think Criminal, and see what arguement you can make to support the concept.

Flame away, but I just had to vent after watching Bush in New Mexico today.
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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: RgrF
Date: June 07, 2006 01:33AM
How many "criminal" employers does that make? If they didn't get work they wouldn't come. If the law were enforced ($10,000 fine for each incident) there would not be this problem.

What part of that don't people get?

The law is on the books, the spinelessness lies with the politicians who won't allow it to be enforced. Enforce the existing law and we won't be talking about this.

The law is there in black and white.

Somebody out there wants us to hold one set of lawbreakers more responsible than the other. Wonder why they would want that?

It's like charging a drug addict with breaking the law while letting his/her supplier go free.



"Who's more foolish - the fool or the fool that follows him?" - Obi Wan Kenobi



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2006 01:38AM by RgrF.
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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: MacMagus
Date: June 07, 2006 03:03AM
So all people who have committed criminal acts are to be labeled criminals?

How many non-criminals does that leave?

I'd guess nobody over the age of 5.

Stole change from your sister's piggy bank? You're a criminal. Wrote your name in crayon on the horsie ride at the grocery store? Criminal. Sat in the front seat with mommy under the age of 12 -- you're a criminal. Entered your neighbor's property to reclaim a ball? Criminal. Threw a tantrum in public? Criminal. Peed on a tree? Criminal. Crawled into the fountain at the mall? Criminal. Rode your bike without a helmet? Criminal. Crossed against the light? Criminal. Took the collar (with the tags) off of your doggie? Criminal. Flushed your dead goldfish? Criminal. Went swimming in the adult pool? Criminal...
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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: mick e
Date: June 07, 2006 06:18AM
- groan -

If this is an attempt to "elevate" the dialog, you have failed.




Unpaid Social Liaison
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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: modelamac
Date: June 07, 2006 06:21AM
Why have the law if it is not to be enforced?

Enforce all laws and prosecute based on the penalties written into those laws.

Be prepared, though, for a huge jump in taxes to pay for jails, police, judges, and courthouses required to handle the increase in business. Do you really want more lawyers?



Ed (modelamac)

I think I will just put an OUT OF ORDER
sticker on my head and call it a day.
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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: Lux Interior
Date: June 07, 2006 07:00AM
If so-called Republicans (voters, not the pols) can't see the hypocrisy in their party with this issue, they never will.

1) Republicans stand for strong national security. This means securing our borders and making sure illegal immigrants cannot pass so easily between the US and Mexico.

2) Republicans are pro-business. This means making sure businesses get all the advantages they can to stay competitive. This includes cheap labor.

For point number one, there aren't any deep pockets to provide fat campaign contributions or bribes or kickbacks. For number two, however, it's party time! Guess which one wins? And don't fool yourself into thinking all illegal immigrants are working for small businesses and doing landscaping work in San Diego. Read "Fast Food Nation" and see how the meat industry loves illegal immigrants. Hey, where else are you going to get an employee that can get his arm severed and not sue? Or even go to the press? Plus you don't have to give him any benefits. That's what the government is for!

So, guys, the people you vote do not share your views on this issue. They may pay it some lip service, but in the end, they know nothing will happen.

Get out in vote in November. But think about why this issue is such a hot topic now. It's so you will vote based on point one. THen after the election, point two takes over again and it's business as usual (until 2008).
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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: DharmaDog
Date: June 07, 2006 08:51AM
The actions of the employers should not excuse the actions of the illegal immigrants. All should be punished, and it all should stop. Now.

There are no excuses for allowing this to continue.
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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: Carnos Jax
Date: June 07, 2006 09:11AM
Well for all you speeders out there (and I mean even 1 MPH over the limit), y'all are all criminals. It is a crime to break the law.
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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: incognegro
Date: June 07, 2006 09:17AM
and if you've ever fudged your taxes, too... JAIL!
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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: Lux Interior
Date: June 07, 2006 09:21AM
DIdn't signal a lane change, or a turn? CRIMINAL!

Didn't come to a complete stop? CRIMINAL!

Made a copy of your own CD for your own use? CRIMINAL!
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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: mick e
Date: June 07, 2006 09:28AM
The current president broke the law with his warrantless spying program, BTW, FWIW, LOL, ETC.




Unpaid Social Liaison
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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: Lux Interior
Date: June 07, 2006 09:32AM
Quote
mick e
The current president broke the law with his warrantless spying program, BTW, FWIW, LOL, ETC.

DUI.
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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: $tevie
Date: June 07, 2006 09:35AM
It's one thing to be concerned about this issue. It's another thing entirely to attempt to demonize the illegal aliens. Which is what the original poster is doing.

That adds nothing to the dialogue and does not help the situation in any way at all. Just one more thing for people to get in a lather about. Keeping everyone upset is the Republican campaign strategy and it seems to work a treat.



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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: Seacrest
Date: June 07, 2006 10:47AM
Ewwwwww!
A criminal picked my strawberries!
Gross!

And I'm NEVER drinking Napa Valley wine ever again.





I am not Ryan Seacrest, and I do not approve this message.
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Criminals!
Posted by: Seacrest
Date: June 07, 2006 10:54AM
A veritable rogues' gallery.

[www.thesmokinggun.com]

[www.thesmokinggun.com]

[www.thesmokinggun.com]

[en.wikipedia.org]

[en.wikipedia.org]





I am not Ryan Seacrest, and I do not approve this message.
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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: June 07, 2006 11:15AM
bcam- eloquent, and factually correct.

Welcome to the wonderful world of spinnage. If we had 12 million Islamic Fundamentalists massed on our borders or living illegally in this country, don't 'cha think we'd have nuked them by now ?

Let me throw another hand grenade on the fire...

Since the government of Mexico encourages and enables this illegal entry into their neighboring country, could this not be defined as an invasion, and an act of war ?

"Invading Mexicans overwhelm California".

In a remarkable turn of events, the State of California has declared a State of War with Mexico.

"They've invaded our Great State with the specific goal of collapsing our state economy and bankrupting our people", ranted Governator Ahnold. "This is clearly an invasion by a foreign power, designed to destabilize our lives, liberties, and pursuit of SUV's. As such, I have declared a State of War. I have called up our National Guard, and I have placed all US Military personnel, facilities, and material within State boundaries under my personal control. If it's war they want, it's war they're going to get. "
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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: Effin Haole
Date: June 07, 2006 06:33PM
Rule #1

"It ain't illegal until you get caught!"

Rule #2

See Rule #1.



Strength without compassion is brutality. Compassion without strength is weakness.

We must train our minds to desire what the situation demands.
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Re: Criminals!
Posted by: bfd
Date: June 07, 2006 06:49PM
Quote
Seacrest
A veritable rogues' gallery.


D'oh!
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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: DharmaDog
Date: June 07, 2006 10:28PM
So for all of you making light of the criminal status, are you suggesting/implying that no crime should be punished? Let the speeders, tax evaders, piraters, illegal immigrants go free without any reprimand or even a slap on the wrist? Where do you draw the line? Should we also not punish thieves, murderers and rapists? Should we open the doors to our prisons and let everyone out?

I guess it depends on how serious you think this crime is. I think it is more serious than poor driving or copyright infringement. Less serious than murder or rape. But somewhere in between tax evasion and theft because that is essentially what it is.
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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: MacMagus
Date: June 07, 2006 10:51PM
> So for all of you making light of the criminal status, are you suggesting/implying that no crime should be punished?

No. Simply pointing out that labeling everyone who breaks a law a "criminal" in perpetuity is stupid.

To make a further comparison: You probably ate a few filthy bugs as a kid. Would you want to be labeled a filthy bug eater today? Does that really reflect your identity and how society should look at you?

Same thing goes for illegal immigrants. Anyone capable of looking at the broader picture should have the intellect to observe that simply labeling such people "criminals" is not the appropriate way to deal with the problem.
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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: DharmaDog
Date: June 07, 2006 11:47PM
You can't say that labeling them as criminals is inappropriate and then compare that to being labeled from something you did as a kid. Not at all similar.

We aren't talking about children crossing the border, although I'm aware that happens, and calling them criminals for life.

We are talking about grown adults making the decision to break the law for material gain. And it is completely fair to call them criminals. That's what they are by definition. What criminals shouldn't be called criminals?

I think it's fair to call me a criminal for speeding while I'm doing so. Just as its fair to call an illegal immigrant a criminal while he is illegally in this country. If he goes home or obtains a legal status allowing him to be here then he will cease to be a criminal. It doesn't follow you around for life, just while you are actually breaking the law.

It doesn't mean the person is bad, it just means they are breaking the law.
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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: BCam
Date: June 07, 2006 11:50PM
I'm glad we've had some discussion on this issue. Some reactions on my part.

$tevie: demonize? How can I demonize when what I said is true? By the way, to demonize (transitive verb) 1 a : an evil spirit b : a source or agent of evil, harm, distress, or ruin. I simply pointed out that crossing a border without legal permission is a crime. I never mentioned intent. And rather than toss off a Republican approach - maybe you can offer you're ideas on how to resolve this problem.

MacMagus: I never suggested labeling "everyone who breaks the law a criminal" (although that would be true, wouldn't it?). I simple asked that you stop using one label, and use a more accurate one. And as I asked $tevie, how would you "deal with the problem"?

modelamac & RgrF: You guys have hit the nail on the head. We DO have laws and penalties, but apparently not the will to enforce them. And whose fault is that? Probably the people who wrote the laws and falied to fund their enforcement. And it is ultimately OUR fault, becasue we've never held politicians responsibnle for their actions and votes. Maybe we can talk about that rather than Gay Marriage and Flag Burning.

Dharma Dog: Join the two guys above. If we as a People are not interested in enforcing the Laws of the Land, if we are so unfocused, unconcerned and lazy, then maybe we don't really deserve the protection of the Laws of the Land. That apathy has given us the Bush Administration and its parade of well paid and powerful pirates.

cbelt3: Just one more scary statistic - 1 out of every 7 MEXICANS lives in the United States. That's 14% of a sovereign nation's population. Example: USA population estimated as of today, 298,925,352. 14% equals 41,849,550. Mexican population? 107,449,525. We just need to move 14% of US south of the border, and we'd be 39% of the population. if we'd vote in a block, we can take over the Mexican Government and put a stop to this invasion once and for all! Either that or just annex the country and make 'em all US citizens!
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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: MacMagus
Date: June 08, 2006 12:06AM
> I simple asked that you stop using one label, and use a more accurate one.

And I'm simply saying that your label doesn't sufficiently describe the people or the problem. You're defining their entire existence by the illegality of one action.

When migrant laborers cross into the US to help in our seasonal harvests, do they do it because they are evil criminals? Or do they do it to earn some money to support their families? If the latter, is that behavior properly called "criminal?" Is it really "criminal" to want to feed your kids?

The fact is that many companies welcome illegal immigrants. Many people don't believe that having open borders is a bad thing. A good chunk of our GNP is dependant on illegal immigrants. Even as it's supposedly illegal, it's "illegal" with a wink-wink-nudge-nudge, not illegal like a murder.

It's not such a crime that the people committing it should be demonized.

We'd all be better off if people stopped spending so much time and energy trying to force people to take sides in a meaningless debate and instead spent that energy working to find ways to objectively evaluate the economic and social forces behind these problems and eliminate the untenable aspects.
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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: DharmaDog
Date: June 08, 2006 12:14AM
"Either that or just annex the country and make 'em all US citizens!"

I think we should look into this option. If we are expected to take care of any Mexican that wanders across the border illegally, and the Mexican government encourages its citizens to do so, then perhaps its time to just hand the keys to us and lets make them all Americans. That way when they send their money home, they'll just be sending it to another part of the country rather than out of the country. Oh and plus all our "American" cars that are built in Mexico will then actually be American cars. Problem solved.
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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: Thrift Store Scott
Date: June 08, 2006 01:22AM
"Either that or just annex the country and make 'em all US citizens!"

Boy, that oughtta really piss off Vincente Fox!
"Mr. Fox, you are no longer president of your country as it has been annexed. Here's a box for your personal effects. Please be out of this office within the next 15 minutes."

Hehehe!
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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: MacMagus
Date: June 08, 2006 03:12AM
Just remind Dubya that there's oil down there...
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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: DharmaDog
Date: June 08, 2006 05:11AM
>"Is it really "criminal" to want to feed your kids?"

Of course not, but it is criminal if you break the law to do so.

And we are not defining their entire existence by the illegality of one action. Read my above post about this. They are criminals while they are here illegally. If they go home or become legal then they are no longer criminals. We aren't defining them, their actions are and those actions do not have to be permanent.

>"A good chunk of our GNP is dependant on illegal immigrants."

So it's OK as long as we're making money from illegal activity? What happens when it's no longer profitable? By this logic we should decriminalize any activity that could boost our GNP. Might want to rethink that one.

>"It's not such a crime that the people committing it should be demonized. "

Calling a law breaker a criminal is not demonizing them. Like I said, while I speed I am a criminal. That's a fact. If I stop speeding then I am no longer breaking the law and I am no longer a criminal. If I get caught speeding, get penalized monetarily or with jail time and settle that penalty then I am also no longer a criminal. It's merely a definition and a statement of fact. These people can stop being criminals by either going home or becoming legal.

Why is it wrong to want them to be here legally rather than illegally? It may be a meaningless debate to you, but that does not make it universally meaningless. It's all fine and good to want to solve the social and economic issues that facilitate this criminal activity, but part of the problem lies here in the US, and a larger part of the problem lies in Mexico. Their corrupt government (more so than ours), perpetually weak economy, and government sponsored encouragement of the unemployed to enter the US illegally are issues that we cannot directly address.
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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: mick e
Date: June 08, 2006 06:46AM
Somebody broke it down for mick e this way:

Imagine that you make, say $200 a day on your current job here in the USA. Then you hear through the grapevine, that if you were to sneak up to Canada, you could make $200 PER HOUR if you were willing to simply sneak across the expansive border.

Would you do it? Maybe, maybe not - but a couple years of work up there would give you the same money that FOURTEEN years down here would yield. Do the math and it's easy to see why this is so tempting to people.

To call these illegal immigrants criminals is to not truly step into their shoes.




Unpaid Social Liaison
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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: bfd
Date: June 08, 2006 07:26AM
This is simply an easy way to make them the boogeyman, "the little brown menace" … it helps in refocusing attention away from the real boogeymen.
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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: Lux Interior
Date: June 08, 2006 08:28AM
Quote
BCam
I simple asked that you stop using one label, and use a more accurate one.

Quite the opposite. "Illegal Immigrant" is what they are. It is a very specific subset of "criminal" and therefore an accurate a description. What you meant is that you want to use a label that has a worse connotation.

Would you want murderers and rapists relabled as generic criminals? Of course not. In fact that would be viewed as some bleeding-heart liberal scheme to prevent hurting their fragile self-images.

If ALL criminals were required to register like sex-offenders, would you want them all labled as "criminal." No, you would want to know if the guy down the street was convicted of homicide or shop lifting.
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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: DharmaDog
Date: June 08, 2006 10:00AM
I'm not sure how the motive to make much more money factors into whether or not they are criminals and wether we should call them such.

I can make gobs of money doing illegal things, but if I get caught and get hauled into court is my case going to be dismissed because the temptation to make more money was just too great for me to resist?

Do we have to walk in every criminal's shoes to know they are criminals?

Calling them criminals is a statement of fact. Illegal Immigrant is more specific, but as Lux said, it is a subset of criminal.

Whatever you want to call them, the acceptance of this illegal behavior needs to stop. Fine and punish the employers that hire (they are criminals too) and punish the individuals when they are caught. Send them home if possible. Even provide them with assistance to a degree on becoming legal. Let them come back when they agree to play by the rules. Why is that wrong?
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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: mick e
Date: June 08, 2006 10:09AM
That's NOT wrong. That is right. In fact that's how it should be dealt with - by enforcing the laws we have.

Building a ridiculous goddam Great Wall of China and branding illegal immigrants as felons is wrong. Creating a formalized program of enslavement is also wrong. Dehumanizing people who are simply trying to build a better life for themselves is wrong.

This is all about BushCheneyCorp trying to fuel some USA Rah Rah anti-foreigner rhetoric. It feeds the red meat to the "base", while distracting everyone else from the trainwreck that is Iraq.




Unpaid Social Liaison
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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: DharmaDog
Date: June 08, 2006 10:57AM
I thought the gay marriage thing was to distract us from the illegal immigration thing, which was to distract us from the Iraq thing, which was to distract us from the economy and the fact that our hopes for retirement are being swindled away into the coffers of the already insanely wealthy.

Can someone diagram this?

While I don't think a wall will make much of a difference in terms of keeping people out, I do think it sends the message that we aren't willing to look the other way anymore and allow waves of illegals to flood into our country, so enter at your own risk. I think that it is important to send that message. Up until now they've been able to look across the border and not really see anything to stop them from coming in. And enforcement of laws on the issue was nonexistent. It's like a thief seeing that all the doors and windows are open on a house and figuring they might as well take something if it's going to be made this easy for them. Locking the doors and windows won't stop someone that is determined, but it won't look like an open invitation anymore.

I deserve to be called a criminal if I'm committing a crime. I don't see why it's different for illegal immigrants. And the fact that they are just trying to better their lives has what to do with it? Lots of crimes are committed in the effort to better one's life. Does that excuse the crime?

Let's enforce existing laws on all parties, find a way to be fair to the people that have established lives in this country, and send a clear signal that the days the US looking the other way on the issue of illegal immigration are over. I'm not suggesting the Bush proposal does any of these things, just stating what I think needs to be done.
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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: MacMagus
Date: June 08, 2006 11:23AM
> Let's enforce existing laws on all parties

Are you sure that you want to be fined or jailed for every time you slipped past 55 on the road? For every red light you rushed? For every time you've switched lanes or turned without a signal? For every double-stop at a stop sign? For every time that you jaywalked? For every gum wrapper you've dropped? For every foul word you've said in public? For every threat you've ever voiced? For every check you've mis-dated? For every time you crossed the white line at the front of the bus while it was in motion? For every time you ever hit anyone, even a kid in grade school? For every time someone gave you too much change and you didn't immediately pay back the difference? For every NiCad battery you've thrown out? For every drop of bleach or oil you've put down the drain? For every time you lit a cigarette in the wrong place? For stuff that you've bought online without paying sales tax? For every shareware app you've used past the trial period...?

There are LOTS of criminal statutes that aren't strictly enforced. You've probably broken a half dozen laws before breakfast today without even knowing it. Are you absolutely certain that you want all of those laws enforced?

> I deserve to be called a criminal if I'm committing a crime.

Okay, you're a criminal. Happy now?
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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: $tevie
Date: June 08, 2006 12:14PM
Quote
BCam
$tevie - maybe you can offer you're ideas on how to resolve this problem.

Maybe you can offer some ideas yourself. Because I absolutely fail to see how using the term "criminal" does anything to resolve the problem. It's just a "feel good" (to you, anyhow) verbal antic.
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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: DharmaDog
Date: June 08, 2006 01:18PM
MacMagus, I thought I made it clear that being called a criminal does not bother me. And from your rant we are all criminals, so it shouldn't hurt anyone's feelings or dehumanize anyone to call illegal immigrants criminals. That's my point. Thanks for illustrating it. If you don't want to call them criminals, but suggest that everyone else is a criminal, then you are giving them a pass.
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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: mick e
Date: June 08, 2006 01:41PM
mick e thinks Larry needs to rebrand this forum from "Friendly Political Ranting" to "Friendly Criminals Political Ranting".




Unpaid Social Liaison
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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: MacMagus
Date: June 08, 2006 01:53PM
> And from your rant we are all criminals, so it shouldn't hurt anyone's feelings or
> dehumanize anyone to call illegal immigrants criminals.

Of course it's dehumanizing. It's easy to dismiss a criminal. To ignore his needs. Because criminals are baaaaaad. Because they deserve to be punished. Because they commit crimes.

But you knew that before you posted your proposition. You've played it too dim-witted and obstinate for too many posts.

You're a mean, petty troll and you are not deserving of further responses.
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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: mick e
Date: June 08, 2006 02:10PM
Quote

I thought the gay marriage thing was to distract us from the illegal immigration thing, which was to distract us from the Iraq thing, which was to distract us from the economy and the fact that our hopes for retirement are being swindled away into the coffers of the already insanely wealthy.

If they are not distractions what are they? Each one of these Rovian wedge issues cannot be won, cured or legislated. Perhaps you can explain then, WHY they are being pushed upon the American people, when there are so many more pressing issues at hand?

Go ahead and diagram THAT.




Unpaid Social Liaison
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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: Effin Haole
Date: June 08, 2006 05:21PM
Quote
mick e
mick e thinks Larry needs to rebrand this forum from "Friendly Political Ranting" to "Friendly Criminals Political Ranting".


Friendly Criminals Ranting Politically



Strength without compassion is brutality. Compassion without strength is weakness.

We must train our minds to desire what the situation demands.
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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: DharmaDog
Date: June 08, 2006 10:04PM
MacMagus, I won't stoop down to your level.

But again,criminals are not necessarily "baaaad", as you say. I said this in an earlier post, but you don't seem to read or care what is actually said here. You just keep repeating the same mantra over and over that illegal immigrants aren't criminals. (Find a dictionary and/or a lawyer because they are.) And then resort to name-calling when people don't agree with you.

When you can actually defend your stance instead of insulting those that disagree with you others will consider taking you more seriously.

Have a nice evening.
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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: DharmaDog
Date: June 08, 2006 10:07PM
mick e,
I was actually agreeing with you about the tactics of distraction. They have become more sophisticated, multi-layered and concurrent.

Sorry you didn't pick up on that.
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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: mick e
Date: June 08, 2006 10:23PM
Sorry,

mick e read it as sarcasm. That would be his paranoid tendency.




Unpaid Social Liaison
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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: MacMagus
Date: June 09, 2006 12:26AM
> You just keep repeating the same mantra over and over...
> And then resort to name-calling when people don't agree with you.

Somebody doesn't understand irony.

Troll.

Point made?
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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: DharmaDog
Date: June 09, 2006 09:35AM
I thought I didn't deserve a response.

Now you've completely stopped arguing any point to continue the personal attack. A clear indication that your argument has careened off course and burst into flames is abandoning the issue to focus on personal attacks.

I won't follow you down that road.

If you want to change your tack and be civil again, I'd be happy to discuss this further. Otherwise, good luck with whatever else you have going on.
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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: MacMagus
Date: June 09, 2006 10:04AM
> I thought I didn't deserve a response.

I was illustrating a point. I stuck a label on you. You've been flaming and it looks like you were trolling in this thread. Does that make you a Troll for all purposes?

How do you enjoy being called a Troll? Do you think people will take you seriously if word gets around that you're a Troll?

Maybe the odds of a post of yours being censored just went up because you've got a reputation for Trolling.

You're a Troll. You're a baaaaaaaad person.


> Now you've completely stopped arguing any point to continue the personal attack.

I nominate DharmaDog for a special award for denseness.
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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: DharmaDog
Date: June 09, 2006 10:15AM
By all means, continue.

I doubt I'll be the one censored after your behavior here.
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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: decocritter
Date: June 09, 2006 10:57PM
I think comparing crimes of illegal immigration and immigrants, and crimes of minor traffic violations is stupid.

These majority of people DON'T PAY TAXES, KNOW THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO, HAVE ILLEGAL ID AND PAPERS, FALSIFY GREEN CARDS, FAKE SS NUMBERS (maybe even yours), VIOLATE INSURANCE LAWS (CAR), DRIVE WITHOUT LEGAL LICENSES, VIOLATE HOUSING CODES, LIE TO DO ALL OF THESE THINGS, LIE TO GET HEALTHCARE,ETC. Many of them are even voting illegally.

They are not innocent at all. They know they are breaking multitudes of laws, The first thing they do is break a BIG LAW by crossing illegally. These are not dumb or ignorant folks. They are quite creative and damn nervy.

I don't buy they are trying to feed their family crap. Why do they continue to break all sorts of laws once they get here. Many of them fly right into this country and never leave.

By the way, they also commit plenty of the same "traffic crimes" you guys you are using in your comparisons and they don't have car insurance, so guess who pays.

I would like to ignore the same laws of the US that they do. Do you think I can get away with it?? I don't want to pay taxes to send them to school, and pay for their healthcare when I get no breaks - can I just stop, or plead ignorance.

To call them "criminals" seemed a little drastic, but it is actually quite accurate if you consider:

llegal aliens are NOT necessarily coming here to work. Lou Dobbs recently reported that 33 percent of our prison population is now comprised of non-citizens. Plus, 36 to 42 percent of illegal aliens are on welfare. So, for a good proportion of these people, the American dream is crime and welfare, not coming here to work.

Besides Mexico is NOT a poor country. It has the fifth richest economy in the world, and by sending its teeming masses to our country, that status keeps on rising. Mexico has more resources per square mile than the U.S. and plenty of money to take care of its own people. Why should the taxpayers of this country subsidize Mexico's corruption? They have plenty of oil and revenues from this could educate their own people.

This whole situation is crazy. Just look at what groups are lobbying for illegal immigaration and realize it is at YOUR expense.
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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: Spock
Date: June 10, 2006 08:57PM
Quote
decocritter

llegal aliens are NOT necessarily coming here to work. Lou Dobbs recently reported that 33 percent of our prison population is now comprised of non-citizens.

You should do your own research rather than rely on Lou Dobbs, the anti immigrant spin master.

The prison population of this country is in excess of 2 million according to the Bureau of Justice statistics. [www.ojp.usdoj.gov]

Quote

Non-citizen prison population also growing
As of last June 30, state and federal correctional authorities held 88,776 non-citizens, a 1 percent increase from the 87,917 held a year earlier. Sixty-two percent were held in state prisons and 38 percent in federal institutions. [usgovinfo.about.com]

That makes non-citizens less than 5% of the total prison population. A far cry from your scaremongering 33%.


Quote
decocritter
Plus, 36 to 42 percent of illegal aliens are on welfare. So, for a good proportion of these people, the American dream is crime and welfare, not coming here to work.


I can't find any meaningful data to support his contention but I suspect he is including children of undocumented workers that were born in this country and are citizens. Citizens are entitled to benefits under the law.

Be honest about your predudices, if you just don't like @#$%&, say so. Stop hiding behind half-truths and outright lies.



Comedy Central: Best news channel that isn't a news channel.

Fox News: Best comedy channel that isn't a comedy channel.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/10/2006 09:00PM by Spock.
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Re: Illegal Immigrants No More
Posted by: decocritter
Date: June 10, 2006 10:02PM
Spock- It is often an often used tactic to accuse someone of "lies", when you have no other argument (especially one based on facts) except for your emotional knee-jerk one.

Next, you will be using name calling tactics of "racist and xenophobe". Those are always the last resort tactics when someone has no facts.

All reports on any topic can be said to have "spin". Lou Dobbs seems to be pretty on target . Governor Arnold seems to back up the Prison and Welfare claims, because he is begging for money to offset this.

Prove me wrong, and I want real facts. not "global economist" spin or phony "human rights lobbyist spin". Why don't you research it - try Google, there is plenty of info.

I have read dozens of different reports on this issue and talked to folks in local and state law enforcemnt. I live in Atlanta, and this problem is huge. Local police cannot begin to deal with illegals. Hospitals are in trouble here. Schools are in big trouble here. Illegal Gang and Crime Issues are huge here. I know what I see, I know by my taxes.

This problem is real. There is no excuse for it. Prisons aren't filled with fake illegal criminals - they are the real deal. Their crimes aren't petty either.

It does not change the facts if I "like" illegals immigrants or not".

FYI I like immigrants - I don't like illegal immigrants -I don't like criminals . I don't think some folks should ignore all of the laws of the US, while demanding to be taken care of (by taxpayers).

I think that your calling them "@#$%&" is juvenile, but name calling is what you like to do best. Mexicans are not the only illegals, but they are the largest group, and they are all breaking many laws by coming here. Then they feel they have a license to do as they please, commiting more crimes. I resent the hell out of it.

I don't want you and George Bush telling me that I have to pay for this crap that these parasites are knowingly dishing out. Let them pay their own taxes and pay for services for themselves. Or you can pay for it, if you like. I am sick of it.

The illegals in the US do not need to be Mexico's 2nd largest source of National Income. If they are making this much money in this country, they can damn well pay their own way (here, and then back to Mexico). They can send Mexico what they have left after paying their own damn way.
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