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One MORE Nutsoid.... wants candidates to run on the Democratic Ticket against the President
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: October 27, 2011 04:06PM
[thehill.com]

"Consumer activist Ralph Nader said Tuesday that he’ll launch an initiative soon to field primary challenges to President Obama in key states.

Nader, who waged two presidential campaigns as a third-party candidate, is working with a group of frustrated Democrats who are hoping to turn up the heat on Obama from the left. "
- - --
Yeah. That worked real well for Al Gore. Or.. for G.H. Bush. How say you, Democratic Party faithful ? Will a primary opponent produce a useful dialogue in the party, or simple nattering of negativity with a bad result ?
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Re: One MORE Nutsoid.... wants candidates to run on the Democratic Ticket against the President
Posted by: Chakravartin
Date: October 27, 2011 04:09PM
Ralphie boy lost almost all of his left-wing support in 2000-2001.

Nobody listens to him anymore except an insignificant fringe.
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Re: One MORE Nutsoid.... wants candidates to run on the Democratic Ticket against the President
Posted by: Grace62
Date: October 27, 2011 04:56PM
Just as we have Republicans who still think it's going to be 1980 again someday, we have Democrats who are stuck in somewhat the same era, or even earlier.

Pres. Obama is a moderate Democrat very much in the middle when compared with his partisan peers of today. The majority of Democrats are comfortable with his positions, no candidate is going to please an entire party -there are always those more left or right. He is not a 1990's Republican, not even close. And he's very far from today's Republicans.

Nate Silver did a good analyses of his positions a few months ago:

"...It’s fairly easy to demonstrate that Mr. Obama’s policy preferences resemble those of a typical Democrat in today’s Congress.

A system called DW-Nominate, developed by a group of six political scientists, rates each member of Congress on a scale from negative 1 (very liberal on economic issues) to positive 1 (very conservative) based on their roll-call votes. The system also creates a score for each president based on cases in which the outcome he desired from a vote in Congress was clearly articulated.

According to the system, the score for the average Democrat in the 111th Congress was -0.382 (negative 0.382), although there was a fairly significant range, from very liberal Democrats like Dennis J. Kucinich (-0.612) and Barbara Lee (-0.743) to moderates like Heath Shuler (-0.100) and Ben Nelson (-0.030).

Mr. Obama’s score of -0.399 was very close to the average, splitting the difference between his party’s liberal and moderate wings. He typically leaves some room to his left. On initiatives ranging from health care to financial regulation, members of the Congressional Progressive Caucus, as well as many liberal bloggers, thinkers and activists, have complained that his positions concede too much to the Republicans. But Mr. Obama’s positions also generally draw some complaints from moderate, Blue Dog Democrats, and do not always win their votes.

Mr. Obama’s positions are also broadly in line with the median Democratic voter. According to polling conducted by Public Policy Polling, a Democratic-leaning firm, 70 percent of Democrats think Mr. Obama’s positions are “about right”, and those who disagreed were about as likely to say he was too conservative (12 percent) as too liberal (14 percent). "

[fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com]
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Re: One MORE Nutsoid.... wants candidates to run on the Democratic Ticket against the President
Posted by: dad@home
Date: October 27, 2011 06:00PM
Ralph has no shame.

After he took enough votes away from Al Gore for us to be saddled with:
George W
Two Wars (Do you suppose he takes any responsibility for the hundreds of thousands of deaths he caused?)
Massive tax cuts for the wealthy (oh...excuse me.... the job creator class who created lots of Manufacturing jobs in Asia)
Massive budget deficits
The destruction of the Middle Class just to name a few,

he has the gall to reenter politics. He should crawl under a rock from the embarrassment.

This is one democrat who will never EVER forgive Ralph for what he did.


Dad
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Re: One MORE Nutsoid.... wants candidates to run on the Democratic Ticket against the President
Posted by: Grace62
Date: October 27, 2011 06:24PM
There were 7 other 3rd party candidates on the Florida 2000 Presidential ballot besides Nader and the Greens, all but one of them left-leaning. A few of them got thousands more votes than Nader, and any of them could be described as "costing Gore the election." Costing Gore way more votes were Democrats who voted for George W Bush, or didn't bother to vote at all.

So it wasn't that simple...placing all the blame on Nader is easy, but not accurate.
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Re: One MORE Nutsoid.... wants candidates to run on the Democratic Ticket against the President
Posted by: mick e
Date: October 27, 2011 07:24PM
Well - Nader promised not to get placed on the ballot on battleground states, and didn't honor it, soooo - why NOT blame him?




Unpaid Social Liaison



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/27/2011 07:26PM by mick e.
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Re: One MORE Nutsoid.... wants candidates to run on the Democratic Ticket against the President
Posted by: mick e
Date: October 27, 2011 07:27PM
That being said - in this case, mick e thinks Ralph is correct in that the current president deserves a primary challenge.




Unpaid Social Liaison
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Re: One MORE Nutsoid.... wants candidates to run on the Democratic Ticket against the President
Posted by: decay
Date: October 27, 2011 10:40PM
Kerry couldn't carry his own state - Nader only took away votes that Kerry and Bush didn't deserve.



---
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Re: One MORE Nutsoid.... wants candidates to run on the Democratic Ticket against the President
Posted by: Grace62
Date: October 27, 2011 11:10PM
Quote
decay
Kerry couldn't carry his own state - Nader only took away votes that Kerry and Bush didn't deserve.

I think you mean Gore, not Kerry.
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Re: One MORE Nutsoid.... wants candidates to run on the Democratic Ticket against the President
Posted by: wave rider
Date: October 28, 2011 02:39AM
Gore has no one to blame for losing the election than himself. Nader is the easy scapegoat.

The unfortunate truth is that the so called "middle" of the political spectrum is about two miles to the right of where is was in the 60s/70s. My Mom couldn't believe me when I told her that Clinton's budgets were to the right of Nixon's...

=wr=
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Re: One MORE Nutsoid.... wants candidates to run on the Democratic Ticket against the President
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: October 28, 2011 07:30AM
wave-

What you're actually seeing is a change in definition. The 'shift' of 'to the right' or 'to the left' has more to do with polarization of attitudes.

In the 1960's, charity was considered a conservative attribute. Social programs were 'charity'... there was a certain 'noblesse oblige' element.

Fast forward to the 2011, and social programs are considered (by some) to be Marxism.

Of course the dialogue from the left side about 'redistribution of wealth' is not helping things at ALL. Using Marx's definitions to justify one's recommendations will not endear you to the other side.
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Re: One MORE Nutsoid.... wants candidates to run on the Democratic Ticket against the President
Posted by: graylocks
Date: October 28, 2011 09:01AM
Quote
mick e
Well - Nader promised not to get placed on the ballot on battleground states, and didn't honor it, soooo - why NOT blame him?

BINGO! We have a winner here. I voted for Nader here in GA. I knew he didn't have a snowball's chance of winning but he was bringing up some issues I thought deserved voicing AND I had heard him on Fresh Air insisting that this was his goal and he wouldn't contest in battleground states. I have never felt so betrayed by a candidate in my political life; Nader is an egotistical @#$%& for life in my book. ( yeah, I'm STILL pissed about it!)



"Success isn't about how much money you make. It is about the difference you make in people's lives."--Michelle Obama
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Re: One MORE Nutsoid.... wants candidates to run on the Democratic Ticket against the President
Posted by: Grace62
Date: October 28, 2011 09:16AM
Quote
graylocks
Quote
mick e
Well - Nader promised not to get placed on the ballot on battleground states, and didn't honor it, soooo - why NOT blame him?

BINGO! We have a winner here. I voted for Nader here in GA. I knew he didn't have a snowball's chance of winning but he was bringing up some issues I thought deserved voicing AND I had heard him on Fresh Air insisting that this was his goal and he wouldn't contest in battleground states. I have never felt so betrayed by a candidate in my political life; Nader is an egotistical @#$%& for life in my book. ( yeah, I'm STILL pissed about it!)

You voted for him but didn't know he was on the ballot in 44 states?
It was the 1996 percentage of votes earned by the Green Party that got Nader on those ballots, not anything he himself did. He was also nominated by one or two other parties and that's what got him on the ballot in a few states.
There are lots of other 3rd parties that got more votes in 2000 than the Greens - way more. Are they a'holes too?

"Throughout the campaign, Nader noted he had no worries about taking votes from Al Gore. He stated, "Isn't that what candidates try to do to one another--take votes?" Nader insisted that any failure to defeat Bush would be Gore's responsibility: "Al Gore thinks we're supposed to be helping him get elected. I've got news for Al Gore: If he can't beat the bumbling Texas governor with that terrible record, he ought to go back to Tennessee.""

The guy couldn't have been more clear when he was campaigning. You voted for him - blame yourself then.
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Re: One MORE Nutsoid.... wants candidates to run on the Democratic Ticket against the President
Posted by: Ted King
Date: October 28, 2011 09:21AM
Quote
wave rider
Gore has no one to blame for losing the election than himself. Nader is the easy scapegoat.

=wr=

Since the 2000 election came down to about 700 votes in Florida, anything that kept 700 people there who might have otherwise been inclined to vote for Gore is a factor that is responsible for his loss. Clinton not keeping his ding-a-ling in his pants. The decision to send a young boy back to his father after the death of his mother. Gore not being as good a campaigner as he could have been. Nader being on the ballot. Any one of those was a sufficient though not necessary condition (those terms used in the philosophical sense*) for Gore to lose. I believe that is objectively true. Blame is an ambiguous term that very often carries a negative connotation. To the extent, though, that any condition that is a sufficient cause for something to happen could be said to be to blame for that thing happening, it could be said that Gore is to blame because he didn't campaign as well as he could have and Clinton is to blame because he couldn't control his libido and Nader is to blame because if he hadn't been on the ballot in Florida, Gore would have won.

* [en.wikipedia.org]



e pluribus unum
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Re: One MORE Nutsoid.... wants candidates to run on the Democratic Ticket against the President
Posted by: Grace62
Date: October 28, 2011 09:28AM
"According to the official 2001 Statistics of the Presidential and Congressional Election of November 7, 2000, George W. Bush beat Al Gore in Florida by 543 votes. It is noteworthy that every third-party candidate received enough votes in Florida to have cost Al Gore the election. "

There were 8 third party candidates on the ballot in Flordia. Funny how you never hear "those damn Socialist Workers, they cost Gore the election with their 570 votes in Florida!"
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Re: One MORE Nutsoid.... wants candidates to run on the Democratic Ticket against the President
Posted by: $tevie
Date: October 28, 2011 09:35AM
Regardless of Florida, I feel that Nader is addicted to attention and doesn't really do any good with these Quixotic campaigns. I don't feel like he actually brings anything to the table except Nader.

That said, as a person who worked for Eugene McCarthy when I was in High School, I can say that an incumbent can be more vulnerable than one might think. The problem is that Nader is neither an actual threat NOR someone who can influence the Democratic Party to pressure Obama into any sort of change. At this point I think he is the Harold Stassen of the New Millennium and needs to find a new hobby.



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Re: One MORE Nutsoid.... wants candidates to run on the Democratic Ticket against the President
Posted by: Ted King
Date: October 28, 2011 09:41AM
Quote
Grace62
"According to the official 2001 Statistics of the Presidential and Congressional Election of November 7, 2000, George W. Bush beat Al Gore in Florida by 543 votes. It is noteworthy that every third-party candidate received enough votes in Florida to have cost Al Gore the election. "

There were 8 third party candidates on the ballot in Flordia. Funny how you never hear "those damn Socialist Workers, they cost Gore the election with their 570 votes in Florida!"

As I wrote in the above - if it is in fact true that there were a sufficient number of people who would have voted for Gore instead of one of those third party candidates, then they, too, are a sufficient condition to have caused Gore to lose. It's easy to see how that many voters out of the many thousands that voted for Nader would have voted for Gore if Nader hadn't been on the ballot since they both attracted Greeny types (Nader obviously being more Green). I'm not sure it is quite as evident that that is the case with the people who voted for the other third party candidates, but it is entirely plausible.



e pluribus unum



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2011 09:42AM by Ted King.
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Re: One MORE Nutsoid.... wants candidates to run on the Democratic Ticket against the President
Posted by: graylocks
Date: October 28, 2011 09:57AM
Quote
Grace62
Quote
graylocks
Quote
mick e
Well - Nader promised not to get placed on the ballot on battleground states, and didn't honor it, soooo - why NOT blame him?

BINGO! We have a winner here. I voted for Nader here in GA. I knew he didn't have a snowball's chance of winning but he was bringing up some issues I thought deserved voicing AND I had heard him on Fresh Air insisting that this was his goal and he wouldn't contest in battleground states. I have never felt so betrayed by a candidate in my political life; Nader is an egotistical @#$%& for life in my book. ( yeah, I'm STILL pissed about it!)

You voted for him but didn't know he was on the ballot in 44 states?
It was the 1996 percentage of votes earned by the Green Party that got Nader on those ballots, not anything he himself did. He was also nominated by one or two other parties and that's what got him on the ballot in a few states.
There are lots of other 3rd parties that got more votes in 2000 than the Greens - way more. Are they a'holes too?

"Throughout the campaign, Nader noted he had no worries about taking votes from Al Gore. He stated, "Isn't that what candidates try to do to one another--take votes?" Nader insisted that any failure to defeat Bush would be Gore's responsibility: "Al Gore thinks we're suppoPsed to be helping him get elected. I've got news for Al Gore: If he can't beat the bumbling Texas governor with that terrible record, he ought to go back to Tennessee.""

The guy couldn't have been more clear when he was campaigning. You voted for him - blame yourself then.


No, Grace. During the interview Nader clearly stated he would not be ACTIVELY CAMPAIGNING in the battleground states. Of course he was on those ballots. He lied or changed his mind.



"Success isn't about how much money you make. It is about the difference you make in people's lives."--Michelle Obama
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