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Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: swampy
Date: July 17, 2012 07:51AM
[www.youtube.com]

Huh? Somebody else built my business? He makes it sound like the things it took to build and maintain my business are given to me for free. Yes, I use the telephone, Internet, postal service, shipping services, manufacturing services, and many other things to run my business, but I _PAY_ those other businesses for their use. When I need letter head and envelopes, I go to a printer and PAY them. When I log on to the Internet, I pay both the phone company for the DSL connectIon and the ISP for email service, I PAY taxes for the building of roads that my goods travel over. All the goods and services that I use are businesses in and of themselves that required someone to invest their money and take the risk to set in place so they could SELL them to to people like me so they could make a PROFIT.

How can this man fix our economy when he doesn't have a basic understanding of what makes it work?



If you don't stand for something, you'll probably fall for anything.t
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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: Wild eep
Date: July 17, 2012 08:09AM
Now let's put it in to context.


Quote
There are a lot of wealthy, successful Americans who agree with me -- because they want to give something back. They know they didn’t -- look, if you’ve been successful, you didn’t get there on your own. You didn’t get there on your own. I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something -- there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there. (Applause.)

If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together. There are some things, just like fighting fires, we don’t do on our own. I mean, imagine if everybody had their own fire service. That would be a hard way to organize fighting fires.

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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: Gutenberg
Date: July 17, 2012 08:12AM
Why don't we allow people to comment on the full context of Obama's speech?

We’ve already made a trillion dollars’ worth of cuts. We can make some more cuts in programs that don’t work, and make government work more efficiently…We can make another trillion or trillion-two, and what we then do is ask for the wealthy to pay a little bit more …

There are a lot of wealthy, successful Americans who agree with me, because they want to give something back. They know they didn’t -look, if you’ve been successful, you didn’t get there on your own. You didn’t get there on your own. I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something – there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there.

If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business. you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen.

The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together. There are some things, just like fighting fires, we don’t do on our own. I mean, imagine if everybody had their own fire service. That would be a hard way to organize fighting fires.

So we say to ourselves, ever since the founding of this country, you know what, there are some things we do better together. That’s how we funded the GI Bill. That’s how we created the middle class. That’s how we built the Golden Gate Bridge or the Hoover Dam. That’s how we invented the Internet. That’s how we sent a man to the moon. We rise or fall together as one nation and as one people, and that’s the reason I’m running for president – because I still believe in that idea. You’re not on your own, we’re in this together.”
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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: Gutenberg
Date: July 17, 2012 08:22AM
The point being, it's pretty lame and ridiculous to excise 10 seconds of a speech about America's greatness and use it to pound our President.

Your success is the combination of a lot of effort by a lot of people--your parents, your teachers, the guys who maintain the roads, the people who run the water works, the people who maintain the power plant and grid. It doesn't matter if you pay your rates for these services. You could not possibly have built all these things yourself. It took a lot of effort and considerable expense by a lot of people--and the evil government.

Obama is absolutely right. We are all in this together, and when this country was much stronger than it is now, it was the result of a more equitable distribution of income and resources. When this country is brought to its knees, as it is now, it is mainly because of a greedy upper class.
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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: Pam
Date: July 17, 2012 08:48AM
No one lives in a vacuum. An honest business person will tell you it takes smarts, hard work, and some luck to be successful. They'll also be quick to credit mentors, teachers, parents, and the good old USA for making it possible in the first place.
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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: Avenger
Date: July 17, 2012 08:53AM
I always wondered how Apple came about until last night. The answer was right in front of me all along; roads and bridges. Even if Steve Jobs came out with the idea for Apple I, how could he get out of his house without roads. Throw in Safeway too. How could he survive without food? We would still be on our IBM PC/XT. There are no shortages of people like jobs. They are all over the place. They just don't have roads leading to their door steps. There is no telling what they could do.

Then I started pondering about myself. How did I move here, get a job, raise children and become a successful person that I am today? Last night I found my answer: KLM. That's right, KLM Royal Dutch Airlines. I would still be groveling in dirt in some far away land if it wasn't for KLM.
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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: $tevie
Date: July 17, 2012 09:02AM
If you don't agree with the President's view of a country as greater than the sum of its parts, that's fine. But that's merely a difference of opinion which hardly merits all the storm und drang.







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2012 09:04AM by $tevie.
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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: mick e
Date: July 17, 2012 09:05AM
Quote
Mitt Romney
"Corporations are people, my friend."




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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: Avenger
Date: July 17, 2012 09:06AM
What made you successful Stevie? Your driveway? How else would you get out of your house?
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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: swampy
Date: July 17, 2012 09:15AM
I'm not saying we don't need teachers, roads, electric grids and all the rest, I'm just saying we PAY for these things either through the free economy or our taxes. It's not like teachers work for nothing. My business depends on other people DOING THEIR BUSINESSand doing it well.

The government doesn't build roads. People and businesses build the roads. The government, with my tax dollar, PAYS for materials and labor. It's all about COMMERCE. Obama wants it to be about altruistic warm and fuzzy, caring and sharing. Is that's what they teach in economic classes at Harvard?



If you don't stand for something, you'll probably fall for anything.t
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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: $tevie
Date: July 17, 2012 09:45AM
Quote
swampy
Obama wants it to be about altruistic warm and fuzzy, caring and sharing

That MONSTER!!! eye popping smiley



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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: Pam
Date: July 17, 2012 10:04AM
Quote
swampy
I'm not saying we don't need teachers, roads, electric grids and all the rest, I'm just saying we PAY for these things either through the free economy or our taxes. It's not like teachers work for nothing. My business depends on other people DOING THEIR BUSINESSand doing it well.

The government doesn't build roads. People and businesses build the roads. The government, with my tax dollar, PAYS for materials and labor. It's all about COMMERCE. Obama wants it to be about altruistic warm and fuzzy, caring and sharing. Is that's what they teach in economic classes at Harvard?

No. You know that. However, if the rich keep getting richer and the middle class continues to shrink, what do you think will happen? It's a house of cards. Look at your own profession. Teachers' income and benefits have not kept up and as result the very people like you who once chose to teach look elsewhere. Those that do choose to follow in your footsteps have great difficulty attaining the same lifestyle you enjoyed years ago. With that comes less commerce as they don't have money to spend on anything aside from the basics.

What you are failing to see is that the very people you are protecting, the super rich individuals and corporations, practically own this country and do not care about you. You're essentially the slave who thanks master for the cup of gruel while evangelizing how good they are. There is most certainly a need for a more level playing field.

Where's your outrage at giving wall street a 3 trillion dollar bailout? Where's your outrage at the incestuous relationship that exists between the FDA and pharma? You don't mind that your tax money goes into those deep pockets instead of the teacher next door? Or the corner business that can't get a loan at a reasonable interest rate?
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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: mick e
Date: July 17, 2012 10:25AM
It's much easier to attack out of context quotes from the Black President.




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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: swampy
Date: July 17, 2012 10:37AM
The middle class isn't shrinking because the rich are getting richer. The middle class is shrinking BECAUSE THERE ARE NO JOBS!

It's not the job of a rich man to worry about MY welfare. Why do you liberals feel compelled to control eveybody's dollar? I'm glad the rich man is rich. It is the American dream. Everybody would like to be rich, but that is not reality, Pam. That rich CEO signs the front of the check. You, me, the government signs the back of it. Everybody needs the rich, yet you would kill the geese that are laying golden eggs. How stupid.

Yes, there is fraud and corruption on Wall Street, big corporations and government, but who allows it to exist? The System (Congress, the SecEt al) who are supposed to be the over seers, don't hold the crooks accountable.

Bailouts should never happen, banks, wall street, GM, Solyndra. I truly believe that we would be well on the way to economic recovery if the powers that be had just stayed out of the crisis. Yes, there would be a lot of hurting going on, but like an addict, it has to hit rock bottom before it can get better. This administration keeps propping up failure and prolonging the agony. Americans are strong. We have proven that time and time again. The best have always stepped forward and worked to make things better.

You want warm and fuzzy. I'm calling for some hard love.



If you don't stand for something, you'll probably fall for anything.t
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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: July 17, 2012 10:55AM
swampy,
As I mentioned in an earlier thread, our sort-of-socialist neighbors to the north are now richer than we are. Why? Because they REGULATED THEIR BANKS. And thereby avoided the catastrophe that was 2008 in the United States, and the subsequent deep recession and real estate crash. We don't need less government involvement with Wall Street, we need a lot more. The role of government is to ensure that while they are in the process of making money, businesses don't destroy our entire economy. Government and business are partners in our society, not enemies. Making government the enemy, which seems to be the current Republican mantra (ironically of Republicans IN that government,) is the exact opposite of what we need.
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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: mick e
Date: July 17, 2012 10:59AM
Quote
swampy
You want warm and fuzzy. I'm calling for some hard love.

Sounds like a job for Randy Bumps!




Unpaid Social Liaison
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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: Pops
Date: July 17, 2012 11:28AM
Quote
Pam
An honest business person will tell you it takes smarts, hard work, and some luck to be successful. They'll also be quick to credit mentors, teachers, parents, and the good old USA for making it possible in the first place.
The problem is that the vast majority of those "honest" business persons are small business owners being squeezed out of their jobs. What we're left with in the Wall Street/multi-national corporations do not meet those criteria or seem to share those values at all.
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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: Pam
Date: July 17, 2012 11:40AM
Quote
swampy
The middle class isn't shrinking because the rich are getting richer. The middle class is shrinking BECAUSE THERE ARE NO JOBS!

It's not the job of a rich man to worry about MY welfare. Why do you liberals feel compelled to control eveybody's dollar? I'm glad the rich man is rich. It is the American dream. Everybody would like to be rich, but that is not reality, Pam. That rich CEO signs the front of the check. You, me, the government signs the back of it. Everybody needs the rich, yet you would kill the geese that are laying golden eggs. How stupid.

Yes, there is fraud and corruption on Wall Street, big corporations and government, but who allows it to exist? The System (Congress, the SecEt al) who are supposed to be the over seers, don't hold the crooks accountable.

Bailouts should never happen, banks, wall street, GM, Solyndra. I truly believe that we would be well on the way to economic recovery if the powers that be had just stayed out of the crisis. Yes, there would be a lot of hurting going on, but like an addict, it has to hit rock bottom before it can get better. This administration keeps propping up failure and prolonging the agony. Americans are strong. We have proven that time and time again. The best have always stepped forward and worked to make things better.

You want warm and fuzzy. I'm calling for some hard love.

The rich are getting richer and yes, jobs are a problem. And I agree it's not the job of the wealthy to worry about my well being. However your second and third paragraphs are exactly why the rich got richer and why there is a loss of jobs. No, I don't want the rich to open their pocketbooks and give handouts. I do want the playing field leveled. When you hear "share" that is what people are talking about.

You do realize you are proposing regulation which is what Republicans have been stridently against. Those entities which should be facing criminal charges are the very entities that the GOP protect.
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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: john dough
Date: July 17, 2012 11:51AM
Funny that there was no Swampy outrage when we were spending an unbudgeted $1-2 billion a day in Iraq and all of those no-bid contracts were freely handed out to the friends of the administration.

The same people screaming to high heaven about everything that Obama has done/does/will do are the same that were dead silent (or worse, defending Bush's activities) in the ramp up to where we are now.
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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: mick e
Date: July 17, 2012 11:51AM
swampy is simply on marching orders. It is the FOXNews obfuscation meme of the day.

[2012.talkingpointsmemo.com]




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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: Pam
Date: July 17, 2012 12:03PM
Quote
mick e
swampy is simply on marching orders. It is the FOXNews obfuscation meme of the day.

[2012.talkingpointsmemo.com]

Did you read where Sununu said he wished the president would learn to be an American? Then tried to back pedal to say he meant learn American economics? I don't believe that was an unintentional slip-up.
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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: mick e
Date: July 17, 2012 12:07PM
They don't want to talk about Bain, or lies, or taxes, so they are obviously grasping at straws in a desperate attempt to change the narrative.




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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: Avenger
Date: July 17, 2012 12:08PM
To all those who rationalize the idiotic statement by, of all people, the President, walk around your neighborhood, pick a big, fancy home and ask the owner how he managed to live there and see if they say this was all made possible because they built the township library. The man in one fell swoop denigrated 200 years of achievement by individual Americans. Mr. Pr. President , what roads did the Wright Brothers needed to launch the first ever powered flight?
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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: $tevie
Date: July 17, 2012 12:17PM
This really is a very pathetic attempt at a distraction. OH MY GOD THE PRESIDENT BELIEVES THERE'S AN INFRASTRUCTURE!!!!!! huh smiley



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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: July 17, 2012 12:21PM
Funny you should mention the Wright Brothers.

The Wright brothers attended public schools, though neither graduated from high school.

"In May 1899 Wilbur wrote a letter to the (government funded) Smithsonian Institution requesting information and publications about aeronautics. Drawing on the work of Sir George Cayley, Chanute, Lilienthal, Leonardo da Vinci, and Langley, they began their mechanical aeronautical experimentation that year."
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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: mick e
Date: July 17, 2012 12:32PM
Dakota just makes it so easy.




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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: Avenger
Date: July 17, 2012 12:39PM
You see this is what happens when you feel obligated to tow the party line . You embarrass yourself. Wright Brothers plane was made of wood. Am I to conclude then that they are nobody were it not for the lumberjacks.? Where is the sense of proportion here? Ford was nobody because someone invented the wheel then? This reminds me to check how many roads were in this country back then. You could argue that Ford built the roads by producing a product that needed roads.

The only reason Obama is saying it is to advance his agenda. To denigrate individualism and to magnify government. His message: You are nobody.

This ridiculous statement is enough fodder for weeks of programming on the news shows but you won't hear any of it. They are still interested in when Romney left Bain. was it 1999 or 2000 and here we have a President who is questioning the foundation of the country.
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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: mick e
Date: July 17, 2012 12:41PM
Keep digging.




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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: Avenger
Date: July 17, 2012 12:44PM
Yeah, the hole for Lemon Drop just got a little deeper. When he comes back, I'll dig a little more. BTW, which hole are you hiding in? Say something.
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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: john dough
Date: July 17, 2012 12:49PM
Nothing but pathos for you. You begged to come back here....why?
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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: Uncle Wig
Date: July 17, 2012 01:10PM
Quote
john dough
Nothing but pathos for you. You begged to come back here....why?

To get his attention fix from suckers like you, that's why.



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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: Avenger
Date: July 17, 2012 02:03PM
Another smack down. This will go down as one of Obama's most stupid statements. He will pay for it.

"NFIB President and CEO Dan Danner nailed it today when he said, “His unfortunate remarks over the weekend show an utter lack of understanding and appreciation for the people who take a huge personal risk and work endless hours to start a business and create jobs. “I’m sure every small-business owner who took a second mortgage on their home, maxed out their credit cards or borrowed money from their own retirement savings to start their business disagrees strongly with President Obama’s claim.”

[www.csmonitor.com]
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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: mick e
Date: July 17, 2012 02:06PM





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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: Dennis S
Date: July 17, 2012 02:48PM
"The middle class isn't shrinking because the rich are getting richer. The middle class is shrinking BECAUSE THERE ARE NO JOBS!" - swampy

Unbelievable.
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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: Avenger
Date: July 17, 2012 03:18PM
Do you drive around with your kids, pointing to upscale homes and telling your kids that they live in their 2500 sq. ft home because somebody else is living in a 10,000 sq. ft. home? If you don't then you are just putting up an act here. If you do you will be the object of ridicule by your kids.
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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: Dennis S
Date: July 17, 2012 04:10PM
Quote
Avenger
Do you drive around with your kids, pointing to upscale homes and telling your kids that they live in their 2500 sq. ft home because somebody else is living in a 10,000 sq. ft. home? If you don't then you are just putting up an act here. If you do you will be the object of ridicule by your kids.

You have a real serious problem with logic. I'm serious as all get out. You are wasting our time and your own life living like this. You should do something about it.
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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: mick e
Date: July 17, 2012 04:45PM
Regarding "Joe The Plumber".

Do you actually think that episode hurt Obama, swampy?




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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: July 17, 2012 05:38PM
Quote
Avenger
Do you drive around with your kids, pointing to upscale homes and telling your kids that they live in their 2500 sq. ft home because somebody else is living in a 10,000 sq. ft. home? If you don't then you are just putting up an act here. If you do you will be the object of ridicule by your kids.

Do you drive around telling your kids that their home is made of wood because somebody else's home is made of brick, and that because of Obama the wolf will have to huff and puff and blow your home down?
No? Because if you don't you are just putting up an act here.
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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: Pam
Date: July 17, 2012 05:47PM
Quote
Avenger
Do you drive around with your kids, pointing to upscale homes and telling your kids that they live in their 2500 sq. ft home because somebody else is living in a 10,000 sq. ft. home? If you don't then you are just putting up an act here. If you do you will be the object of ridicule by your kids.

Wow. That's dense even for you.
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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: Chakravartin
Date: July 17, 2012 06:10PM
Quote
Avenger
"NFIB President and CEO Dan Danner nailed it today when he said, “His unfortunate remarks over the weekend show an utter lack of understanding and appreciation for the people who take a huge personal risk and work endless hours to start a business and create jobs. “I’m sure every small-business owner who took a second mortgage on their home, maxed out their credit cards or borrowed money from their own retirement savings to start their business disagrees strongly with President Obama’s claim.”

...And where would those people be without carpenters, home-contractors, bankers and banks?

How far are you going to stretch trying to make it look like everyone on the planet is alone?
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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: Sam3
Date: July 17, 2012 08:12PM
Quote
Chakravartin
Quote
Avenger
"NFIB President and CEO Dan Danner nailed it today when he said, “His unfortunate remarks over the weekend show an utter lack of understanding and appreciation for the people who take a huge personal risk and work endless hours to start a business and create jobs. “I’m sure every small-business owner who took a second mortgage on their home, maxed out their credit cards or borrowed money from their own retirement savings to start their business disagrees strongly with President Obama’s claim.”

...And where would those people be without carpenters, home-contractors, bankers and banks?

How far are you going to stretch trying to make it look like everyone on the planet is alone?

How convenient that even just the sentence before and the sentence afterward were skipped over by the rightwingers. You don't even need the whole paragraph to acertain context, just those two sentences will help:
Quote

Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen.

It would have been better if the President would have used correct grammar - "those" instead of "that".
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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: Avenger
Date: July 17, 2012 10:14PM
I gathered the family today and told them how they got where they are. One finished college and got a job, one just graduated and one accepted into business school. I told them without the roofers there would have been no college and no jobs.
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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: Avenger
Date: July 17, 2012 10:18PM
>>You have a real serious problem with logic. I'm serious as all get out. You are wasting our time and your own life living like this. You should do something about it.<<

I must have touched a raw nerve to send you off message like this. Blaming the 10,000sq ft homes for your measly 2000 sq. ft. home is exactly the Obama doctrine. You defend it but when I put you on the spot, you run away.
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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: mick e
Date: July 17, 2012 10:32PM
You are starting to look like a prattling fool again.




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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: Dennis S
Date: July 17, 2012 10:47PM
Quote
Avenger
>>You have a real serious problem with logic. I'm serious as all get out. You are wasting our time and your own life living like this. You should do something about it.<<

I must have touched a raw nerve to send you off message like this. Blaming the 10,000sq ft homes for your measly 2000 sq. ft. home is exactly the Obama doctrine. You defend it but when I put you on the spot, you run away.

Like I said, you have a problem with logic.
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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: Avenger
Date: July 17, 2012 11:58PM
Obama has a problem with logic. Watch him walk back this disaster in the next few days. He has already started.
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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: $tevie
Date: July 18, 2012 12:37AM
Is it me, or did the RNC used to be able to come up with better contrived scandals than what they've been concocting this summer?



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Re: Another Joe The Plumber Moment?
Posted by: RgrF
Date: July 18, 2012 02:02AM
That was the old GOP back when their collective heart was in it, this is the new GOP where the guys who knew how to run a bare knuckle campaign are relegated to the back row. That's if they're still even in the party.
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"If you've got a business, you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen"
Posted by: Avenger
Date: July 18, 2012 12:04AM
Just wanted to immortalize these words.
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Re: "If you've got a business, you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen"
Posted by: RgrF
Date: July 18, 2012 01:15AM
"If you've got a business, you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen"

Literally true. If you got a business that would mean it was a business given to you, not one you built yourself.

Wiki has a grammer corrector. Word has one as well.
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