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Microsoft and HP avoid billions in taxes
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: September 20, 2012 03:59PM
We pay, so they don't have to.




[seattletimes.com]
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Re: Microsoft and HP avoid billions in taxes
Posted by: Pam
Date: September 20, 2012 04:12PM
Apple only paid 14%. Less than Microsoft.

I really don't have a problem with either company. They did pay. What I do have a problem with are companies who pay nothing. Especially when they get money from the federal government. I also have a problem with small businesses who have to pay 30-35% because they don't have the same leverage as rge big boys. Mom and pop type businesses shouldn't be penalized nor should we have nothing but big boxes in this country.
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Re: Microsoft and HP avoid billions in taxes
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: September 20, 2012 04:25PM
I agree with the Senators, the loopholes need to be closed.

Yet Mitt Romney and the GOP House want to lower the corporate tax rate and complain that American businesses are overly burdened with taxes. That's bogus.
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Re: Microsoft and HP avoid billions in taxes
Posted by: Ted King
Date: September 20, 2012 04:34PM
On the general point about corporate taxes:

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Re: Microsoft and HP avoid billions in taxes
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: September 20, 2012 04:35PM
I don't see that. A Multinational company pays taxes where income is earned. The "Pays no taxes" meme is still a falsehood. You're like the coffee shop that sees customers walking down the street with your competitors cups, and runs out and accuses them of stealing from you. It makes no logical sense.

You would prefer they pull a Haliburton and move offshore?

Making a confiscatory policy on foreign earnings would put some companies in the same decision point. Is that the desired outcome ?

America's multinational companies are a lot of our national economic strength. What's the real agenda?
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Re: Microsoft and HP avoid billions in taxes
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: September 20, 2012 04:50PM
Danny Westneat of the Seattle Times:

So Mitt Romney thinks if you don't pay income taxes, then you're a handout-addicted moocher who can't take responsibility for bettering yourself.

Harsh. That's mean to say such a thing about Boeing.

Wait ... Boeing? That wasn't who Romney was talking about in his closed-door riff about how the freeloading 47 percent are dragging down this otherwise hardworking, Republican nation.

Yet it remains peskily true that in any accounting of who pays zilch to the federal enterprise, our aerospace superstar is at the top of a long list. In 2011, Boeing had no net income-tax liability for the fourth year in a row, despite $5.1 billion in profits.

I bring this up because Romney, in his foolish slighting of nearly half a nation he's trying to woo, blundered into one of my own hobbyhorses. Namely, that not enough people in this country pay income taxes.

And by "people," I graciously include our newest citizens, the corporations.

[seattletimes.com]
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Re: Microsoft and HP avoid billions in taxes
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: September 20, 2012 04:54PM
Quote

A Multinational company pays taxes where income is earned.

Unless it's earned in the United States.
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Re: Microsoft and HP avoid billions in taxes
Posted by: Pam
Date: September 20, 2012 05:15PM
Quote
cbelt3
I don't see that. A Multinational company pays taxes where income is earned. The "Pays no taxes" meme is still a falsehood. You're like the coffee shop that sees customers walking down the street with your competitors cups, and runs out and accuses them of stealing from you. It makes no logical sense.

You would prefer they pull a Haliburton and move offshore?

Making a confiscatory policy on foreign earnings would put some companies in the same decision point. Is that the desired outcome ?

America's multinational companies are a lot of our national economic strength. What's the real agenda?

It's not that cut and dried. There are many ways to make it appear as if profit was made overseas when it really wasn't. Apple talked about this not too long ago. From memory they were hoping for an amnesty that would allow them to bring such funds back to the US. They'd still pay taxes on it, just not the huge amount they'd have to without amnesty.
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Re: Microsoft and HP avoid billions in taxes
Posted by: Pam
Date: September 20, 2012 05:18PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
I agree with the Senators, the loopholes need to be closed.

Yet Mitt Romney and the GOP House want to lower the corporate tax rate and complain that American businesses are overly burdened with taxes. That's bogus.

Isn't it interesting that the GOP only seems to apply this to mega corporations. I sure don't see love for small businesses. But they sure want you to think they have the backs of small businesses.
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Re: Microsoft and HP avoid billions in taxes
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: September 20, 2012 05:29PM
Quote
Pam
Quote
Lemon Drop
I agree with the Senators, the loopholes need to be closed.

Yet Mitt Romney and the GOP House want to lower the corporate tax rate and complain that American businesses are overly burdened with taxes. That's bogus.

Isn't it interesting that the GOP only seems to apply this to mega corporations. I sure don't see love for small businesses. But they sure want you to think they have the backs of small businesses.

Not many mom and pops can hand out lobbying love like Boeing or Microsoft.
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Re: Microsoft and HP avoid billions in taxes
Posted by: freeradical
Date: September 20, 2012 05:43PM
Only people pay taxes.
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Re: Microsoft and HP avoid billions in taxes
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: September 20, 2012 10:09PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
Quote

A Multinational company pays taxes where income is earned.

Unless it's earned in the United States.

Can you explain this ? Here is the math on my example.

I am an American corporation. In my Chinese operation, make and sell a product in China for which I earn 100CNY. I pay the Chinese government a tax of, say 40CNY on that income. I now have a earnings after tax of 60 CNY on that sale.

You're saying that because I happen to have my corporate headquarters in America, I should also pay 35CNY on that sale , netting me a corporate earnings of 25 CNY total ?

Note that I do make and sell products in the US. I pay 35% corporate tax rate on those earnings.

Then my shareholders may well demand I move my operations to Dubai, where I will pay no income taxes on my corporate profits, and my earnings after tax will be 60CNY on that sale. The American operations may or may not remain and will pay taxes on that operation's earnings, but the corporate HQ will move, as will the income taxes of the various corporate executives and staff.

America loses.

Ed: Is there complexity on the process ? Oh yeah. Courtesy of interlocking US laws (thanks, Congress), international laws, international treaties. I once sat through about a 2 hour explanation from an international tax expert. At the end I looked at him and said "So, it's smoke, mirrors, and following everybody's law at the same time, which is essentially impossible ?" To which he said "Yes".

Laws are created by politicians, who are generally relatively illogical. Tax laws are that illogic, then squared and cubed. Then run through a factorial of the number of different nations involved.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/20/2012 10:13PM by cbelt3.
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Re: Microsoft and HP avoid billions in taxes
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: September 20, 2012 10:47PM
cbelt your example has nothing to do with the aggressive tax avoidance schemes used by Microsoft, HP, etc.
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Re: Microsoft and HP avoid billions in taxes
Posted by: RgrF
Date: September 21, 2012 12:05AM
Quote
Lemon Drop
cbelt your example has nothing to do with the aggressive tax avoidance schemes used by Microsoft, HP, etc.
...or Bain Capital.
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Re: Microsoft and HP avoid billions in taxes
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: September 21, 2012 07:11AM
Lemon, yes, there are further complexities involving moving income from one country to another. And there are controls on those movements. And there are laws in place that govern them. Actually, as I recall, the rules got tighter during the Bush Presidency. Yes. Tighter. I can't point to a law, but I recall discussions about strategy changes in income 'sequestration' due to rule changes.

FWIW, these "Schemes" are fully legal. And that's the root of the whole argument. Your political party yammers about how horrible companies are that are....

Following the law in every detail.


Don't like it ?

Change. The. Law.

If making laws is like making sausage, making tax laws is like making cheap hotdogs. ALL the weird crap goes into them. The US Tax code is an incomprehensibly complex disaster, and getting worse.

But don't run around screaming 'Horrible Evil Scheming Corporate Bastards !'. They are following the laws that OUR Congress created.
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Re: Microsoft and HP avoid billions in taxes
Posted by: Pam
Date: September 21, 2012 08:00AM
[www.huffingtonpost.com]

[www.washingtonpost.com]

Cbelt, no one but you has run around screaming 'Horrible Evil Scheming Corporate Bastards !'. However, in the context of the upcoming election and your party's claims, it's valid to be very unhappy and bring up the issue. Yes, congress passed the laws. What's your point? That it doesn't mean anything relative to the upcoming election? It most certainly does.
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Re: Microsoft and HP avoid billions in taxes
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: September 21, 2012 08:03AM
Pam-
You bet it does.

So elect the congress that will pass laws that make more sense.
Elect a president that will sign those laws and enforce them.


Unfortunately..... neither party appears to be focused on 'makes sense' as a strategy.
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Re: Microsoft and HP avoid billions in taxes
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: September 21, 2012 12:01PM
Here we have a bipartisan Senate committee saying that we need to reform corporate tax laws, and you're saying Congress won't do anything about this? That makes no sense.

And it's both parties in agreement that we have a system now that allows the richest to escape paying their fair share. One party though seems more determined to do something about that.
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Re: Microsoft and HP avoid billions in taxes
Posted by: August West
Date: September 21, 2012 12:01PM
Quote
Pam
Cbelt, no one but you has run around screaming 'Horrible Evil Scheming Corporate Bastards !'.

He's been challenged on this in the past, yet keeps perpetuating his own stereotype and attributing it to those who have a position contrary to him.


CUT THE BULLSHITE, CBELT!!!
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Re: Microsoft and HP avoid billions in taxes
Posted by: WOOF
Date: September 21, 2012 12:33PM
Wages are real, profits are fictions at a letter slot on Bermuda.
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