advertisement
Forums

 

AAPL stock: Click Here

You are currently viewing the 'Friendly' Political Ranting forum
Feel 'Green" with your EV ? Not so fast, me Bucko !
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: October 05, 2012 11:13AM
[onlinelibrary.wiley.com]

An interesting study, which quite clearly points out that the source of electric power that an EV uses can in fact produce MORE 'pollutants' than a gasoline or diesel vehicle of high efficiency. Also a dizzying comparison of existing manufacturing 'environmental cost' models, which also point out many of the complexities.

I'm very pleased to see studies of this level of detail. It was very informative. I will also point out that, like many historical manufacturing processes and inventions, improvements in the process and the developments in the energy storage devices (batteries) themselves can and will be developed that will tilt the equation.

Continuing drives for renewable energy production will also tilt the equation.



However... note one little statistic.... 2 BILLION light vehicles in use by 2050. Woah. Imagine the traffic jams !
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Feel 'Green" with your EV ? Not so fast, me Bucko !
Posted by: Acer
Date: October 05, 2012 11:15AM
I suggest we standardize all vehicle efficiency ratings to meters per joule.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2012 11:16AM by Acer.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Feel 'Green" with your EV ? Not so fast, me Bucko !
Posted by: mick e
Date: October 05, 2012 11:17AM
It's PART of the solution. People need to reconize that so much of the power grid comes from coal - the dirtiest form of energy that the US uses.

If the EV owner has a solar array on the garage roof and charges the car from that, then the footprint becomes tiny.




Unpaid Social Liaison



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2012 11:17AM by mick e.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Feel 'Green" with your EV ? Not so fast, me Bucko !
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: October 05, 2012 11:17AM
Microns per Electron Volt ?

Furlongs per Erg ?

And for the nuke powered flying cars... Kilometers per Kiloton ?
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Feel 'Green" with your EV ? Not so fast, me Bucko !
Posted by: August West
Date: October 05, 2012 12:07PM
Wiley's often has good reads.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Feel 'Green" with your EV ? Not so fast, me Bucko !
Posted by: the_poochies
Date: October 05, 2012 12:28PM
"My car gets 40 rods to the hogshead and that's the way I likes it!"
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Feel 'Green" with your EV ? Not so fast, me Bucko !
Posted by: Ted King
Date: October 05, 2012 12:34PM
I could have sworn we had a thread that discussed this several months ago (which means it could have been well over a year taking into account my advanced age time compression factor). I think there was a link to Scientific American or something like that, that had a map of the country and indicated which regions it made sense to have EV's, but I can't find it in doing a search of the forum. Here's a Scientific American link that's from April, but I don't know if that's the one I'm thinking of because it doesn't have the map: Where You Live Determines How Climate Friendly Electric Vehicles Are.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2012 12:35PM by Ted King.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Feel 'Green" with your EV ? Not so fast, me Bucko !
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: October 05, 2012 12:43PM
Ted-

Quite true. I'll plead my poor memory.

Some of my threads are initiated by /. discussions or stuff I trip across during lunchtime ADHD perambulations through the interwebs. The details in the report, however, are far and above the normal Scientific American layman's science discussion, and a very fascinating read. The availability of these interlocking studies is very cool.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2012 12:43PM by cbelt3.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Feel 'Green" with your EV ? Not so fast, me Bucko !
Posted by: Ted King
Date: October 05, 2012 12:48PM
Quote
cbelt3
Ted-

Quite true. I'll plead my poor memory.

Some of my threads are initiated by /. discussions or stuff I trip across during lunchtime ADHD perambulations through the interwebs. The details in the report, however, are far and above the normal Scientific American layman's science discussion, and a very fascinating read. The availability of these interlocking studies is very cool.

About the part in bold: absolutely! It's a great report and definitely worth bringing up and linking to. I just thought I'd mention that we had a thread about it earlier.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Feel 'Green" with your EV ? Not so fast, me Bucko !
Posted by: dad@home
Date: October 05, 2012 01:27PM
Ted's right.
This is old news.

Where I live in Washington State hydro and wind generate the vast majority of my electricity.

For the last two years BPA (who has control of the power transmission lines) has ordered wind producers to shut down their wind farms so that they could put more spring runoff water through the generators. Putting water through the spillways was not an option because of the potential for fish kill. The lack of a VIABLE NATIONWIDE ELECTRIC GRID meant that they disconnected the wind generators from the grid...... they had no place to put all the extra electricity they were generating!

Quote
Wind energy operators were forced to curtail 97,557 megawatt hours of wind power last year(2011)
[www.sustainablebusinessoregon.com]

So instead of sending diry ol' Cleveland 98 thousand megawatt hours of clean electricity we had to throw it away!

It drives me crazy!

In my opinion we need a MASSIVE investment in Wind power.
"Oh noes" you cry "the wind doesn't always blow".
In truth it IS always blowing SOMEWHERE. All we need is a decent, reliable grid. If we build in generating redundancy, overbuild our need for wind mills, we can use our not yet built 21st century grid to ship them electrons where ever they are needed.... even Cleveland.

And yes my home-brewed plug in Prius being charged from wind is as green as it gets.

John



For some must watch, while some must sleep
So runs the world away



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2012 01:52PM by dad@home.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Feel 'Green" with your EV ? Not so fast, me Bucko !
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: October 05, 2012 02:53PM
personally, I think a LNG or Propane hybrid would be awesome. I'm not sure if there is an issue given the volatility of the gases involved and pairing those with current, but I can dream...
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Feel 'Green" with your EV ? Not so fast, me Bucko !
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: October 06, 2012 10:00AM
I keep hearing about "clean coal" but I still have not seen a coal power plant that both has clean stack gasses and does not produce tons of solid ash per day.

Quote
mrbigstuff
personally, I think a LNG or Propane hybrid would be awesome. I'm not sure if there is an issue given the volatility of the gases involved and pairing those with current, but I can dream...

Diesel is better in my opinion. LNG, at least for the time being, is already a fringe solution. Honda makes LNG cars but they only sell marginally well in areas with the infrastructure to fill them. Diesel has the highest energy density of currently available automotive fuels and typically has the best partial throttle efficiency.



In tha 360. MRF User Map
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Feel 'Green" with your EV ? Not so fast, me Bucko !
Posted by: Spock
Date: October 06, 2012 10:40AM
Quote
Filliam H. Muffman
I keep hearing about "clean coal" but I still have not seen a coal power plant that both has clean stack gasses and does not produce tons of solid ash per day.

Clean coal is in the same mythical category as Unicorn Shît.



Comedy Central: Best news channel that isn't a news channel.

Fox News: Best comedy channel that isn't a comedy channel.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Feel 'Green" with your EV ? Not so fast, me Bucko !
Posted by: kj
Date: October 06, 2012 02:50PM
In these discussions, I feel compelled to make it clear that hydroelectric is not "green". kj.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Feel 'Green" with your EV ? Not so fast, me Bucko !
Posted by: Manlove
Date: October 06, 2012 04:52PM
Quote
kj
In these discussions, I feel compelled to make it clear that hydroelectric is not "green". kj.
Absolutely not when it destroys habit and displaces millions of people, but I still don't feel that the power inherent in the oceans has been tapped yet (in a non-destructive fashion of course).
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Feel 'Green" with your EV ? Not so fast, me Bucko !
Posted by: kj
Date: October 06, 2012 06:56PM
Interfering with salmon runs, turning rivers into lakes of green goo, etc. kj.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Feel 'Green" with your EV ? Not so fast, me Bucko !
Posted by: RgrF
Date: October 07, 2012 04:39AM
In truth, "Interfering with salmon runs, turning rivers into lakes of green goo, etc." are among the things that allowed us to become who we are. Countries on the come like China or India live by different rules and goals and cannot be expected to live within the restraints developed nations impose upon themselves.

If, at this late date, we still have an internal debate about the effect development has on climate change, what path would anyone expect developing nations to follow?

If we don't admit we're part of the problem, why should they?
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Feel 'Green" with your EV ? Not so fast, me Bucko !
Posted by: Manlove
Date: October 07, 2012 12:02PM
Agreed Rgr. That's always been a problem.
Do as I say now, not as I did then.
China, India, Africa (soon). If they do what was done here...not good. But we have no moral right to stop them. They of course can ask for advice but if that advice looks like it is designed to keep them at a lower economic and societal level than us, they have every right to ignore it.

it's a delicate operation.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Feel 'Green" with your EV ? Not so fast, me Bucko !
Posted by: kj
Date: October 07, 2012 02:54PM
Quote
RgrF
In truth, "Interfering with salmon runs, turning rivers into lakes of green goo, etc." are among the things that allowed us to become who we are. Countries on the come like China or India live by different rules and goals and cannot be expected to live within the restraints developed nations impose upon themselves.

If, at this late date, we still have an internal debate about the effect development has on climate change, what path would anyone expect developing nations to follow?

If we don't admit we're part of the problem, why should they?

Climate change is only one part of the green thing. As far as the dams, I think a lot of the benefit of them has been to put existing resources/money into different pockets, but I don't know about the net gain in prosperity. Cheap power for aluminum companies, but the fishery is pretty much gone, and miles and miles of some of the best orchards in the country went under water. I agree though, that we can't expect other countries to be wildlife preserves when we utilize our resources to the extent we do/have done. kj.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.

Click here to login

Online Users

Guests: 101
Record Number of Users: 186 on February 20, 2020
Record Number of Guests: 5122 on October 03, 2020