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BSA Survey... interesting...
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: March 13, 2013 07:02AM
[www.cnn.com]

I filled out that survey last night.

Here's what I took away from the slant and repetition of the questions. Because we all know that surveys are always written to elicit a predefined response.

1- BSA recognizes that there is an issue with the national organization being discriminatory.
2- BSA is planning on pushing the responsibility for applying their current form of 'don't ask, don't tell' down to the chartering organization.

What will that mean when they add up the results and get what they want ?

If you're a gay scout or adult, you won't be welcome at most church related troops. But you'll be welcome everywhere else.

The national organization will drop off LGBT organization's hit lists.

While I was filling out the survey, words from a Canadian Scouter (adult leader) resonated in my mind. She said "Boys, girls, gay, straight, whatever. We don't care. We just don't let any of that stuff go on during outings." If the Canadians can figure it out, so can we.
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Re: BSA Survey... interesting...
Posted by: Spock
Date: March 13, 2013 08:45AM
BSA push poll, what a surprise.



Comedy Central: Best news channel that isn't a news channel.

Fox News: Best comedy channel that isn't a comedy channel.
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Re: BSA Survey... interesting...
Posted by: lafinfil
Date: March 13, 2013 09:24AM
Interesting article in my local paper a few days ago in regards to the local Boy Scouts, United Way, and major UW donor which is a university with a non-discriminatory policy on their books.

The quick take - the university provides about 16% of the local United Way's $4.75 million campaign, through employee fundraising campaign and universities matching gifts. The United Way provides about $80K of the local BSA Councils $1.4 million budget (covers 16 counties with about 5,000 Scouts)

Employees of the university are questioning why they are supporting an organization (Scouts via UW) that does not live up to their own policy. It is a good question and the Scouts find themselves caught in the middle. By living up to their national charter they stand to lose their primary funding sources.

This is opening up a discussion that may not stop with the university. Other large chunks of local UW funding come from industries that also have non-discriminatory policies. The second largest is probably Subaru that manufactures locally. They are well know to have a very strong gay client base and are even known to market to that segment of the market. What happens when their support gets called into question?

The BSA is a private organization so they can run it as they see fit, but you can only sell so much popcorn.

[www.jconline.com]



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Re: BSA Survey... interesting...
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: March 13, 2013 09:46AM
'fil- Yup, and this "grabbing them by the wallet" is the exact reason why they're even considering the change. BSA national appears to be heavily controlled by the Mormon church. My local council is the same way. That group pushed the 'don't ask, don't tell' policy in place, which is more egregious than the military's now defunct policy.

The Cleveland United Way also decertified BSA for the same reason. Outlying counties each have their own United Way council (it's set by county), and none of them have followed this step. But it's only a matter of time.

While BSA isn't a 'faith based organization', the concept of faith (any faith) is one of the components of the Scout Law (A Scout is Reverent). That 'hook' has allowed the BSA to apply faith based organization exceptions to discrimination laws.

As noted, the pressure is financial, not judicial. And that's a good thing.
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Re: BSA Survey... interesting...
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: March 13, 2013 10:41AM
I'm surprised there are any UW chapters still giving to Boy Scouts, ours dropped them over a decade ago. What happens now is that employees can designate Boy Scouts to receive their individual UW contribution (less the fee UW charges to collect it) but no UW money is budgeted for Boy Scouts.


I got the survey too but haven't done it yet. I would disagree that "most churches" would reject gay scouts. That may be true for (some but not all) Catholic and Southern Baptists and a few other conservative denominations, but most of the larger denoms are not going to kick out gay scouts or adults.
(they are not ordaining or marrying these people, after all....)
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Re: BSA Survey... interesting...
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: March 13, 2013 10:55AM
Lemon-

You are of course correct. I think the Mormons are going to create the 'charter organizations can still forbid it' rule so they don't have to deal with those nasty infidel people.

I don't think our troop (chartered to a Catholic church) would forbid them. Heck, we had a few self-avowed gay scouts.

What I'd love to see is some diversity training requirements pushed into the overall scouting ecology. Add a requirement to teach the boys (and, coincidentally, the adults) to be respectful of others regardless of any personal attribute. Education usually trumps discrimination, but it does take generations.
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Re: BSA Survey... interesting...
Posted by: JoeH
Date: March 13, 2013 11:01AM
Got my link to the survey and filled it out yesterday. Definitely a bit on the "push poll" side of the spectrum, some interesting ways of putting certain questions involved. A couple were worded to get the response they wanted, less careful readers might check a positive response where you needed to check a negative.
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Re: BSA Survey... interesting...
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: March 13, 2013 11:02AM
Even Mormons are shifting around on this. LDS churches don't kick people out for being gay, though they are far from changing their doctrine to acknowledge gay marriage.
They've stopped being a public voice in the anti-gay rights movement, the backlash they got after the Prop 8 thing was actually effective, inside the church itself. A lot of Mormons were mortified by that and don't want to be seen as bigoted. They have a website that says this:

"Reconciling same-sex attraction with a religious life can present an especially trying dilemma," reads the website. "Anyone who lives in both worlds can attest to its difficulty. But with faith, love and perspective it can be done. Every human being, Latter-day Saints affirm, has worth and dignity as a child of God."
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Re: BSA Survey... interesting...
Posted by: RgrF
Date: March 13, 2013 12:57PM
We withdrew Danny from scouting over this issue. Within two years, that local parish saw participation dry up and to this day no longer has a scouting program. This after 50+ years of sponsorship.



"Who's more foolish - the fool or the fool that follows him?" - Obi Wan Kenobi
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Re: BSA Survey... interesting...
Posted by: the_poochies
Date: March 13, 2013 01:09PM
I completed the survey yesterday and I typed that I will withhold money from Friends of Scouting if their policy continues. Little Poochie is a Webelo and loves Scouts more than any other activity. He really wants to be an Eagle Scout. I'm hoping the BSA comes to its senses and changes its discriminatory policy, but I'm not telling L.P. to quit just yet.
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Re: BSA Survey... interesting...
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: March 13, 2013 02:41PM
poochies... most troops don't practice discrimination at all. Don't pull LP for the policy of a few national execs that is generally ignored.

That said, my youngest son dropped Scouting this year, mostly after he had enough of an overcontrolling Scoutmaster. He did express a desire to join Canadian Scouts, especially after he met a nice girl his age at summer camp in Canada. I explained that it would be a very long swim to attend weekly meetings (across Lake Erie).
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Re: BSA Survey... interesting...
Posted by: hal
Date: March 13, 2013 03:05PM
Here are some of the questions asked:

• "Tom started in the program as a Tiger Cub, and finished every requirement for the Eagle Scout Award at 16 years of age. At his board of review Tom reveals that he is gay. Is it acceptable or unacceptable for the review board to deny his Eagle Scout award based on that admission?"

• "Bob is 15 years old, and the only openly gay Scout in a Boy Scout troop. Is it acceptable or unacceptable for the troop leader to allow Bob to tent with a heterosexual boy on an overnight camping trip?"

• "Johnny, a first-grade boy, has joined Tiger Cubs with his friends. Johnny's friends and their parents unanimously nominate Johnny's mom, who is known by them to be lesbian, to be the den leader. Johnny's pack is chartered to a church where the doctrine of that faith does not teach that homosexuality is wrong. Is it acceptable or unacceptable for his mother to serve as a den leader for his Cub Scout den?

• "David, a Boy Scout, believes that homosexuality is wrong. His troop is chartered to a church where the doctrine of that faith also teaches that homosexuality is wrong. Steve, an openly gay youth, applies to be a member in the troop and is denied membership. Is it acceptable or unacceptable for this troop to deny Steve membership in their troop?"

• "A gay male troop leader, along with another adult leader, is taking a group of boys on a camping trip following the youth protection guidelines of two-deep leadership. Is it acceptable or unacceptable for the gay adult leader to take adolescent boys on an overnight camping trip?

• "A troop is chartered by an organization that does not believe homosexuality is wrong and allows gays to be ministers. The youth minister traditionally serves as the Scoutmaster for the troop. The congregation hires a youth minister who is gay. Is it acceptable or unacceptable for this youth minister to serve as the Scoutmaster?"

• "After reading the scenarios in the previous question, please answer one question again. The current Boy Scouts of America requirements prohibit open homosexuals from being Scouts or adult Scout leaders. To what extent do you support or oppose this requirement?

• "Different organizations that charter Boy Scout troops have different positions on the morality of homosexuality. Do you support or oppose allowing charter organizations to follow their own beliefs when selecting Boy Scout members and adult leaders, if that means there will be different standards from one organization to the next?"

• "What is your greatest concern if the policy remains in place and openly gay youth and adults are prohibited from joining Scouting? "

• "What is your greatest concern if the policy is changed to allow charter organizations to make their own decisions to admit openly gay Scouts and leaders?"

• "Do you believe the current policy prohibiting open homosexuals from being Scouts or adult Scout leaders is a core value of Scouting found in the Scout Oath and Law?

• "If the Boy Scouts of America makes a decision on this policy that disagrees with your own view, will you continue to participate in the Boy Scouts, or will you leave the organization?"

Possible answers to the last question are:

• "I believe I can find a way to continue."

• "I do not believe I can find a way to continue."

• "I have not yet made up my mind."

[www.denverpost.com]
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Re: BSA Survey... interesting...
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: March 13, 2013 03:22PM
hal-
Thanks.. I was unable to see the questions again. Some of those were VERY offensive to me and made assumptions that 'two deep leadership' didn't apply.

" Is it acceptable or unacceptable for the gay adult leader to take adolescent boys on an overnight camping trip? "

Good Grief. 1970's logic, proven badly false by the historical record of child abuse by scout leaders. And completely ignores the fact that NO scout is allowed to be alone with a single adult leader who is not his father. EVER. That's the definition of "two deep leadership".

Survey slanting bastards. angry villagers smiley
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Re: BSA Survey... interesting...
Posted by: hal
Date: March 13, 2013 03:27PM
No kidding - I'd say that step one is to remove the person that wrote this survey and then directly ask people to give their opinion on the subject...
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Re: BSA Survey... interesting...
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: March 13, 2013 04:12PM
I'm a strong supporter of gay rights and I am not bothered by these questions. The answers will reveal where people are with their beliefs, and how that will affect what changes they are willing to accept within BSA. This survey is about understanding where people are now, it's not about trying to be PC.
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Re: BSA Survey... interesting...
Posted by: davester
Date: March 13, 2013 04:45PM
Just take that survey and substitute "black" for "openly gay", "white" for "heterosexual", and "mixed race relationships" for "homosexuality" and what do you have?...the 1950s deep south.



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan
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Re: BSA Survey... interesting...
Posted by: hal
Date: March 13, 2013 04:55PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
I'm a strong supporter of gay rights and I am not bothered by these questions. The answers will reveal where people are with their beliefs, and how that will affect what changes they are willing to accept within BSA. This survey is about understanding where people are now, it's not about trying to be PC.

I see the questions steering readers to the notion that perhaps the charter org has a right to dictate rules. I don't see why charter orgs are mentioned at all. Why the long list of scenarios? Why not just state the current policy and ask for opinions?
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Re: BSA Survey... interesting...
Posted by: Ted King
Date: March 13, 2013 04:57PM
Quote
davester
Just take that survey and substitute "black" for "openly gay", "white" for "heterosexual", and "mixed race relationships" for "homosexuality" and what do you have?...the 1950s deep south.

...or substitute "openly atheist" for "openly gay" and "religious kid" for "heterosexual" and what you have is modern day America (okay, a bit of an exaggeration, but not nearly as much as it should be - gay theist kids will probably be officially allowed in the scouts long before atheist straight kids).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/13/2013 04:58PM by Ted King.
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Re: BSA Survey... interesting...
Posted by: Black
Date: March 13, 2013 05:07PM
• "Bob is 15 years old, and the only openly gay Scout in a Boy Scout troop. Is it acceptable or unacceptable for the troop leader to allow Bob to tent with a heterosexual boy on an overnight camping trip?"

The implication being that they would effectively provide a match-up service for gay boys to be sure the other boy in the tent is gay?




New forum user map 8/2015: [www.zeemaps.com]
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Re: BSA Survey... interesting...
Posted by: davester
Date: March 13, 2013 05:33PM
Quote
Black
• "Bob is 15 years old, and the only openly gay Scout in a Boy Scout troop. Is it acceptable or unacceptable for the troop leader to allow Bob to tent with a heterosexual boy on an overnight camping trip?"

The implication being that they would effectively provide a match-up service for gay boys to be sure the other boy in the tent is gay?

I find it very odd that they have a problem with the openly gay scouts, but aren't worried about all of those closeted scouts that are obviously part of the boy scouts today.



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan
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Re: BSA Survey... interesting...
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: March 13, 2013 07:04PM
Quote
hal
Quote
Lemon Drop
I'm a strong supporter of gay rights and I am not bothered by these questions. The answers will reveal where people are with their beliefs, and how that will affect what changes they are willing to accept within BSA. This survey is about understanding where people are now, it's not about trying to be PC.

I see the questions steering readers to the notion that perhaps the charter org has a right to dictate rules. I don't see why charter orgs are mentioned at all. Why the long list of scenarios? Why not just state the current policy and ask for opinions?

as it stands now, the charter orgs DO dictate rules. All troops have a "charter rep" who is the top volunteer in the troop, and represents the troop to the charter org (usually a church.) This person has to approve the Scoutmaster and every other adult volunteer associated with the troop, so if they object to anyone, that person will not be in the troop. That's how it works now, so yes, the attitudes of the people in the charter orgs matters a lot.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/13/2013 07:05PM by Lemon Drop.
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Re: BSA Survey... interesting...
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: March 13, 2013 07:11PM
This survey as it is designed will detect if people are saying one thing (I'm for allowing openly gay scouts and adult leaders) while actually believing something else (I don't want my son sharing a tent with a gay teen, I'm not OK with a gay Scoutmaster, etc. )
Uncomfortable possibilities, but if that's where a majority of people in the organization are, then changing BSA policy now will present big problems.
Bear in mind that the Supreme Court has upheld the right of BSA to discriminate in this manner, so at the present moment, this is not an issue of BSA violating civil rights laws, it's an issue of whether attitudes have changed enough within the existing group to let this change go through now without a mass exodus of members.
Personally I believe that they have changed enough, and frankly the "exiting" crowd will have nowhere to go.
I'm glad to see this survey, even though the results may not be what I would want, because BSA has been claiming that "a large majority" of current BSA members do not want the policy to change, but they have in fact never asked us.
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Re: BSA Survey... interesting...
Posted by: decay
Date: March 14, 2013 06:29AM
How many people still believe that you can 'catch gay' from someone?

Geez-a-whiz...

AND !

Partner gender choice aside, plenty of amoral hetero folks out there.



---




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2013 06:30AM by decay.
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Re: BSA Survey... interesting...
Posted by: the_poochies
Date: March 14, 2013 08:30AM
Quote
decay
How many people still believe that you can 'catch gay' from someone?

Well I have a few gay neighbors and I'd like to catch their great sense in interior design. I can't seem to put together my living room in any attractive fashion. smiling bouncing smiley
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Re: BSA Survey... interesting...
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: March 14, 2013 12:10PM
Quote
hal
Quote
Lemon Drop
I'm a strong supporter of gay rights and I am not bothered by these questions. The answers will reveal where people are with their beliefs, and how that will affect what changes they are willing to accept within BSA. This survey is about understanding where people are now, it's not about trying to be PC.

I see the questions steering readers to the notion that perhaps the charter org has a right to dictate rules. I don't see why charter orgs are mentioned at all. Why the long list of scenarios? Why not just state the current policy and ask for opinions?

hal- there were a bunch of questions the article did not show that asked things like "If a troop is chartered to a church that prohibits homosexual members, should the troop be forced to include them ? ". I'm badly paraphrasing, because I did not record them. That was the whole 'chartered organization' thing.

Lemon... as I recall it, the Chartering Organization rep is a member of the Troop Council. It's not a 'veto' position.. the whole council votes to approve stuff.
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Re: BSA Survey... interesting...
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: March 14, 2013 01:26PM
Quote
cbelt3


Lemon... as I recall it, the Chartering Organization rep is a member of the Troop Council. It's not a 'veto' position.. the whole council votes to approve stuff.

Yes the charter rep is a member of the troop committee, however, every adult volunteer application has to be approved and signed by the charter rep, individually. So if that person objects to anyone, they do have one person veto power.
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