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Prosecution closing is excellent
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: July 12, 2013 11:40AM
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in my opinion. GZ is a callous liar who showed remarkably little regard for the life of TM, or for the law. I think the prosecutors have done a good job of establishing that.
We'll soon see what the jury thought.
[www.orlandosentinel.com]
We'll soon see what the jury thought.
[www.orlandosentinel.com]
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Re: Prosecution closing is excellent
Posted by: Dennis S
Date: July 12, 2013 12:24PM
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Re: Prosecution closing is excellent
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: July 12, 2013 12:46PM
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I can't call him a "killer" in the sense that he intended to do it, I don't think he did, but I do think his behavior shows responsibility for the death, not self-defense.
The outcome of this thing, as the lawyers said, won't bring back Trayvon Martin, but justice is the best you can hope for (and least.)
The outcome of this thing, as the lawyers said, won't bring back Trayvon Martin, but justice is the best you can hope for (and least.)
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Re: Prosecution closing is excellent
Posted by: Black
Date: July 12, 2013 01:15PM
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Re: Prosecution closing is excellent
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: July 12, 2013 01:26PM
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Re: Prosecution closing is excellent
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: July 12, 2013 01:33PM
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Zimmerman's very large weight gain since the crime is interesting, he must have packed on 100 pounds at least.
I wonder if his large size now makes him more sympathetic to the jury as someone who could've been attacked and overcome by a pretty skinny teen, or less? (TM was 5-11 and 165 I believe at the time of his death, GZ 5-8 and around 200)
just wondering if that's a factor at all.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2013 01:36PM by Lemon Drop.
I wonder if his large size now makes him more sympathetic to the jury as someone who could've been attacked and overcome by a pretty skinny teen, or less? (TM was 5-11 and 165 I believe at the time of his death, GZ 5-8 and around 200)
just wondering if that's a factor at all.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2013 01:36PM by Lemon Drop.
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Re: Prosecution closing is excellent
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: July 12, 2013 01:35PM
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Re: Prosecution closing is excellent
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: July 12, 2013 02:15PM
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The prosecution attorney who gave the summation was clearly the best speaker of all 5 (6?) of the attorneys involved.
Can't say I would have been much swayed by all the closing statement histrionics from either side. They didn't really add much if anything to what had already been presented.
But I suppose they have to proceed as if there are some in the jury who can't fit things together on their own.
Can't say I would have been much swayed by all the closing statement histrionics from either side. They didn't really add much if anything to what had already been presented.
But I suppose they have to proceed as if there are some in the jury who can't fit things together on their own.
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Re: Prosecution closing is excellent
Posted by: kj
Date: July 12, 2013 03:41PM
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Quote
Lemon Drop
Zimmerman's very large weight gain since the crime is interesting, he must have packed on 100 pounds at least.
I wonder if his large size now makes him more sympathetic to the jury as someone who could've been attacked and overcome by a pretty skinny teen, or less? (TM was 5-11 and 165 I believe at the time of his death, GZ 5-8 and around 200)
just wondering if that's a factor at all.
I don't think it means anything to the jury, especially having seen him both ways. Sometimes big guys are quite muscular underneath their weight, so if anything it would hurt Z's prospects. But since everyone remembers that he was slender, I don't think it matters.
For me, I think a lot of the impressions I had (from the media) may have been incorrect. I'm not as sure as I was about what happened . kj.
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Re: Prosecution closing is excellent
Posted by: Manlove
Date: July 12, 2013 06:03PM
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Quote
Lemon Drop
I can't call him a "killer" in the sense that he intended to do it, I don't think he did, but I do think his behavior shows responsibility for the death, not self-defense.
Why do you think he didn't intend to kill someone?
I feel that his responsibility for the death comes about due to the fact that he was roaming around his neighbourhood carrying a loaded weapon and accosting (or at the very least preventing the continued ambulation of) a seemingly random young man.
If he is not responsible then the world has become a very strange place indeed! TM is dead because GZ had a gun, was playing vigilante (most likely), accosted him, wrestled with him and eventually shot him. If that isn't responsibility then not much is.
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Re: Prosecution closing is excellent
Posted by: (vikm)
Date: July 12, 2013 08:07PM
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Quote
Manlove
Quote
Lemon Drop
I can't call him a "killer" in the sense that he intended to do it, I don't think he did, but I do think his behavior shows responsibility for the death, not self-defense.
Why do you think he didn't intend to kill someone?
I feel that his responsibility for the death comes about due to the fact that he was roaming around his neighbourhood carrying a loaded weapon and accosting (or at the very least preventing the continued ambulation of) a seemingly random young man.
If he is not responsible then the world has become a very strange place indeed! TM is dead because GZ had a gun, was playing vigilante (most likely), accosted him, wrestled with him and eventually shot him. If that isn't responsibility then not much is.
I'll just add that as I recall, he was directed NOT to go after him. Directed by the person he contacted that HE gave the authoritative power to by contacting them for their "help". He is solely to blame for the death of TM and should be held accountable. having not heard all of the details, I'm not sure what punishment should be doled out.
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Re: Prosecution closing is excellent
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: July 12, 2013 08:18PM
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Quote
Manlove
Quote
Lemon Drop
I can't call him a "killer" in the sense that he intended to do it, I don't think he did, but I do think his behavior shows responsibility for the death, not self-defense.
Why do you think he didn't intend to kill someone?
I feel that his responsibility for the death comes about due to the fact that he was roaming around his neighbourhood carrying a loaded weapon and accosting (or at the very least preventing the continued ambulation of) a seemingly random young man.
If he is not responsible then the world has become a very strange place indeed! TM is dead because GZ had a gun, was playing vigilante (most likely), accosted him, wrestled with him and eventually shot him. If that isn't responsibility then not much is.
I do think he's responsible. He shot Trayvon intentionally, yes, but that doesn't mean he intended to kill him. His story is that it was self-defense.
I don't think he has shown that his life was in imminent danger and that he had no option but to use a deadly weapon, which would mean he is guilty of manslaughter at the least.
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Re: Prosecution closing is excellent
Posted by: kj
Date: July 12, 2013 08:23PM
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Quote
Manlove
Quote
Lemon Drop
I can't call him a "killer" in the sense that he intended to do it, I don't think he did, but I do think his behavior shows responsibility for the death, not self-defense.
Why do you think he didn't intend to kill someone?
I feel that his responsibility for the death comes about due to the fact that he was roaming around his neighbourhood carrying a loaded weapon and accosting (or at the very least preventing the continued ambulation of) a seemingly random young man.
If he is not responsible then the world has become a very strange place indeed! TM is dead because GZ had a gun, was playing vigilante (most likely), accosted him, wrestled with him and eventually shot him. If that isn't responsibility then not much is.
I don't see how you can assume everyone accepts your version of what happened. No one knows what happened, and given all the evidence, it's not clear. I think a lot of what was reported by the media early on shaped opinions and since that time most of it must have been complete speculation and unfounded assumptions, because I didn't see much support (is he really a psycho predator?). I know a lot of people believe anyone with a gun is a psycho-killer, but that's just not the case (sorry, but no). Plus, he was "neighborhood watch", which gives him a reason to be out watching for things out of the ordinary. I'd say he clearly took that a bit too seriously, but that in itself is not a crime. Neither is following someone around. Who initiated the physical confrontation? No one knows, and that's partly why opinions differ. kj.
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Re: Prosecution closing is excellent
Posted by: Spock
Date: July 12, 2013 08:43PM
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Quote
Lemon Drop
I don't think he has shown that his life was in imminent danger and that he had no option but to use a deadly weapon, which would mean he is guilty of manslaughter at the least.
Wrong. The law only requires the he believe that his life was in danger. Wether or not it was actually in danger is immaterial. Its a bad dumb law but its on the books and he is entitled to the benefit of it.
EDIT : From the jury instructions :-
A person is justified in using deadly force if he reasonably believes that such force isnecessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself.
Comedy Central: Best news channel that isn't a news channel.
Fox News: Best comedy channel that isn't a comedy channel.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2013 08:57PM by Spock.
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Re: Prosecution closing is excellent
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: July 12, 2013 09:08PM
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but the words "reasonably believes" mean that he has to show that a reasonable person would believe his life was in danger at that moment.
You can't just go shoot someone and say "my life was in danger." you do have to show what circumstances existed that led you to this conclusion. It's true that if there are no witnesses, it becomes about your credibility because it's just your version . And there I think Zimmerman also has big problems.
I'm not convinced Zimmerman showed that he had good reason to believe his life was in danger.
Meanwhile, I just read the profiles of the 6 female jurors, interesting.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2013 09:08PM by Lemon Drop.
You can't just go shoot someone and say "my life was in danger." you do have to show what circumstances existed that led you to this conclusion. It's true that if there are no witnesses, it becomes about your credibility because it's just your version . And there I think Zimmerman also has big problems.
I'm not convinced Zimmerman showed that he had good reason to believe his life was in danger.
Meanwhile, I just read the profiles of the 6 female jurors, interesting.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2013 09:08PM by Lemon Drop.
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Re: Prosecution closing is excellent
Posted by: Spock
Date: July 12, 2013 09:59PM
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Quote
Lemon Drop
but the words "reasonably believes" mean that he has to show that a reasonable person would believe his life was in danger at that moment.
No. Again from the jury instructions :-
A person is justified in using deadly force if he reasonably believes that such force isnecessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself
Not that "his life was in danger". You might think that's what the law should be but its not how the law is written.
Comedy Central: Best news channel that isn't a news channel.
Fox News: Best comedy channel that isn't a comedy channel.
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Re: Prosecution closing is excellent
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: July 12, 2013 10:21PM
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Re: Prosecution closing is excellent
Posted by: Spock
Date: July 12, 2013 10:51PM
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Quote
Lemon Drop
I see, but do you think Zimmerman showed that in court?
More from the jury instructions:-
If in your consideration of the issue of self-defense you have a reasonable doubt on thequestion of whether George Zimmerman was justified in the use of deadly force, you shouldfind George Zimmerman not guilty.
I think the defense showed enough for reasonable doubt. That's all they had to do. Murder 2 "Beyond a reasonable doubt" was always going to be a mountain too high for the prosecution to climb.
Comedy Central: Best news channel that isn't a news channel.
Fox News: Best comedy channel that isn't a comedy channel.
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Re: Prosecution closing is excellent
Posted by: Dennis S
Date: July 12, 2013 11:23PM
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All of this talk about Zimmerman "defending himself" -then wasn't Martin defending himself?" What if Martin saw the gun and decided he had to whip Zimmerman or die?
Everything else was Zimmerman's instigation - following Martin to shooting Martin. There is no scenario where Zimmerman isn't guilty of at least manslaughter. He started it and he finished it. If Martin was banging Zimmerman's head against the sidewalk (IF, since Zimmerman seems to lie) he was defending himself. No matter how you slice it, Zimmerman's a guilty killer.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2013 11:34PM by Dennis S.
Everything else was Zimmerman's instigation - following Martin to shooting Martin. There is no scenario where Zimmerman isn't guilty of at least manslaughter. He started it and he finished it. If Martin was banging Zimmerman's head against the sidewalk (IF, since Zimmerman seems to lie) he was defending himself. No matter how you slice it, Zimmerman's a guilty killer.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2013 11:34PM by Dennis S.
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Re: Prosecution closing is excellent
Posted by: Black
Date: July 13, 2013 12:39AM
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Quote
Dennis S
All of this talk about Zimmerman "defending himself" -then wasn't Martin defending himself?" What if Martin saw the gun and decided he had to whip Zimmerman or die?
Everything else was Zimmerman's instigation - following Martin to shooting Martin. There is no scenario where Zimmerman isn't guilty of at least manslaughter. He started it and he finished it. If Martin was banging Zimmerman's head against the sidewalk (IF, since Zimmerman seems to lie) he was defending himself. No matter how you slice it, Zimmerman's a guilty killer.
I still am not quite grasping how anything but what was happening in the moment the gun was fired is relevant to whether GZ fired in self defense, as interpreting the law goes.
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Re: Prosecution closing is excellent
Posted by: Acer
Date: July 13, 2013 08:24AM
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This is my question: If at any point GZ did something illegal (other than shooting another person, of course), would that negate the self-defense defense? For example. pointing a weapon without using it might be considered assault. If the assaultee somehow subsequently gets the upper hand, is self defense for the instigator negated? Because that's the closest I can come to seeing GZ guilty of murder, yet I have not heard any mention of any charges against GZ other than some version of murder.
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Re: Prosecution closing is excellent
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: July 13, 2013 09:28AM
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Quote
Black
Quote
Dennis S
All of this talk about Zimmerman "defending himself" -then wasn't Martin defending himself?" What if Martin saw the gun and decided he had to whip Zimmerman or die?
Everything else was Zimmerman's instigation - following Martin to shooting Martin. There is no scenario where Zimmerman isn't guilty of at least manslaughter. He started it and he finished it. If Martin was banging Zimmerman's head against the sidewalk (IF, since Zimmerman seems to lie) he was defending himself. No matter how you slice it, Zimmerman's a guilty killer.
I still am not quite grasping how anything but what was happening in the moment the gun was fired is relevant to whether GZ fired in self defense, as interpreting the law goes.
for second degree murder the prosecution has to show that he had "malicious intent" or something like that when he shot Martin, and also the self-defense instructions say jurors have to consider the full environment and circumstances of what was going on that night - so yeah, everything that happened from the moment he first laid eyes on TM matters. What happened in the days after the shooting is important too.
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Re: Prosecution closing is excellent
Posted by: swampy
Date: July 13, 2013 10:43AM
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Re: Prosecution closing is excellent
Posted by: Ted King
Date: July 13, 2013 12:06PM
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Quote
swampy
TM had four minutes between the 911 call and the gun shot to leave the area. His dad's girl friend lived less than 100 yards away from the spot of the shooting. Why didn't TM just leave?
Interesting that you chose to ask that question about TM when the same could be said of GZ - especially after the 911 operator essentially suggested that that is what he should do.
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Re: Prosecution closing is excellent
Posted by: Dennis S
Date: July 13, 2013 01:27PM
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Re: Prosecution closing is excellent
Posted by: RgrF
Date: July 13, 2013 02:32PM
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Quote
swampy
TM had four minutes between the 911 call and the gun shot to leave the area. His dad's girl friend lived less than 100 yards away from the spot of the shooting. Why didn't TM just leave?
Blaming the victim isn't a stance dyed in the wool conservatives usually take, maybe if the victim didn't look so different from them...
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Re: Prosecution closing is excellent
Posted by: swampy
Date: July 13, 2013 02:45PM
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Re: Prosecution closing is excellent
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: July 13, 2013 03:35PM
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Re: Prosecution closing is excellent
Posted by: $tevie
Date: July 13, 2013 04:42PM
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Re: Prosecution closing is excellent
Posted by: Dennis S
Date: July 13, 2013 05:41PM
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Re: Prosecution closing is excellent
Posted by: RgrF
Date: July 13, 2013 06:37PM
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Quote
DeusxMac
Quote
RgrF
Blaming the victim isn't a stance dyed in the wool conservatives usually take...
TM and GZ aside, might you want to rethink that statement?
Rape victims come immediately to mind.
True. However for some reason or other the conservative mind set seems able to divorce rape from other crimes of violence. (how come no emoticon for a broad brush?)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2013 06:44PM by RgrF.
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Re: Prosecution closing is excellent
Posted by: Ted King
Date: July 13, 2013 07:15PM
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Re: Prosecution closing is excellent
Posted by: $tevie
Date: July 13, 2013 08:11PM
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Quote
Ted King
Quote
swampy
So, why didn't TM run? It's not like he didn't have a choice. He chose to stay.
Why didn't Zimmerman stay in his car? It's not like he didn't have a choice. He chose to get out of his car.
THAT is the crux of the matter. But it's not against the law to get out of your car...
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Re: Prosecution closing is excellent
Posted by: RgrF
Date: July 13, 2013 08:33PM
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Re: Prosecution closing is excellent
Posted by: Ted King
Date: July 13, 2013 08:45PM
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Quote
$tevie
Quote
Ted King
Quote
swampy
So, why didn't TM run? It's not like he didn't have a choice. He chose to stay.
Why didn't Zimmerman stay in his car? It's not like he didn't have a choice. He chose to get out of his car.
THAT is the crux of the matter. But it's not against the law to get out of your car...
Yes, and it's not against the law not to run away from some random guy who keeps following you. Up to the point that one of the two of them initiated forceful physical contact with the other, neither one of them was doing anything illegal. I don't think swampy's questions here are about legalities. For some reason swampy seems to be focused on TM rather than GZ in wondering why he didn't do this or that (even if what both were doing was legal up to the point of physical confrontation) though you can always come up with a similar question of that nature of GZ's actions that you can about TM's (up to the point that one of them initiated physical confrontation).
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Re: Prosecution closing is excellent
Posted by: bruceko
Date: July 13, 2013 11:59PM
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Re: Prosecution closing is excellent
Posted by: Manlove
Date: July 14, 2013 04:31AM
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Quote
Dennis S
Quote
swampy
So, why didn't TM run? It's not like he didn't have a choice. He chose to stay.
Probably because he figured he would be shot in the back and took his chances at his own SELF DEFENSE.
I entirely agree Dennis.
It is not in any sense TM's fault that he is dead.
HE WAS BUYING CANDY!! A crazy unemployed self-proclaimed vigilante accosted him and eventually shot him to death. HE WAS BUYING CANDY!
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