I loved that halftime appearance. What's next the Indian on the coins? Fsck the NCAA.
[www.stltoday.com]

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Da Good Life



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2007 01:21PM by spearmint.

Does "crowed" rhyme with "load?"

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Most WhiteFolk don't "Get It".
It is really, really offensive.

BGnR

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"Good heavens, Miss Sakamoto! You're beautiful!"
"If we dig precious things from the land, we will invite disaster."
"Near the day of Purification, there will be cobwebs spun back and forth in the sky."
"A container of ashes might one day be thrown from the sky, which could burn the land and boil the oceans."

I don't get it. I thought it was honoring the Indian Tribe.

I used to be an ardent chief supporter - since my wife and I were in the Marching Illini, and it was the early 90's. I don't think we ever thought it through all the way. But now, I do see the point - the chief has to go.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2007 01:30PM by volcs0.

Quote
spearmint
I don't get it. I thought it was honoring the Indian Tribe.

Another one that don't "Get It".

BGnR
Here's a hint, all native tribal dancing is a sacred ceremony.
Imagine someone dressed up in a garment that is supposed to represent your priest, or rabbi (or whatever your spiritual beleifs are) doing a really bad imitation of a very sacred and somber ceremony at halftime.
It is shameful that we still do this.

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"Good heavens, Miss Sakamoto! You're beautiful!"
"If we dig precious things from the land, we will invite disaster."
"Near the day of Purification, there will be cobwebs spun back and forth in the sky."
"A container of ashes might one day be thrown from the sky, which could burn the land and boil the oceans."

I guess I don't get it. An exciting dance ment to honor the tribe. What next? Change the name of the states of Indiana and Illinois? Don't forget the Florida State Seminoles and the Central Michigan Chippewa's. Among others..

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Da Good Life



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2007 02:18PM by spearmint.

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spearmint
I don't get it. I thought it was honoring the Indian Tribe.

How would you feel if you were a minority and someone of the majority depicted your race as savage warring uncivilized people after wiping out your people with war, disease and seizing of land?

The NCCA is reasonable on this matter. They have banned offensive depictions while allowing school such as Utah and Florida State to continue the use of the name with permission from the tribes.

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Indians are a large part of our heritage. Keeping their name in the forefront is a good thing.

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Da Good Life

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spearmint
Indians are a large part of our heritage. Keeping their name in the forefront is a good thing.

So depicting a proud people as warlike or spoofed is a good thing?

[photos7.flickr.com]


As previously mentioned, NCAA allows for names being used with permission from the tribes themselves.

I would even question how accurate this outfit is and what has been stereotypically added for effect. I also doubt his "dances" are authentic and mainly designed to get the crowd fired up. There is no dignity to the tribe IMO.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2007 02:27PM by pRON aHOLIC.

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pRON aHOLIC
So depicting a proud people as warlike or spoofed is a good thing?

Everyone's proud. It's not a nice thing to do, either way.

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pRON aHOLIC

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spearmint
Indians are a large part of our heritage. Keeping their name in the forefront is a good thing.

So depicting a proud people as warlike or spoofed is a good thing?

[photos7.flickr.com]


As previously mentioned, NCAA allows for names being used with permission from the tribes themselves.

Spoofed? It is a proud heritage and not warlike. There's nothing war like in the dance. I serverly dislike the NCAA interfering in University policies.. PC.

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Da Good Life



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2007 02:34PM by spearmint.

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spearmint
Indians are a large part of our heritage. Keeping their name in the forefront is a good thing.

Part of our heritage? The one of putting them in remote parts of the country away from any opportunities and economical growth. Have you ever been to a reservation? Some tribes are doing better than others but some still struggle. Some have resorted to accepting poisonous nuclear waste and gambling and reckless oil drilling to make any revenue. How proud are we of that heritage we have reduced some tribes to?

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Quote
spearmint

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pRON aHOLIC

Quote
spearmint
Indians are a large part of our heritage. Keeping their name in the forefront is a good thing.

So depicting a proud people as warlike or spoofed is a good thing?

[photos7.flickr.com]


As previously mentioned, NCAA allows for names being used with permission from the tribes themselves.

Spoofed? It is a proud heritage and warlike? There's nothing war like in the dance. I serverly dislike the NCAA interfering in University policies.. PC.

So you are telling me there is historical record of the actual Chief Illiniwek doing the splits in the air as part of tribal custom? How is this REMOTELY respectful?

If you want to be part of the NCAA, you must abide by their rules. Utah and FL. State have permission from the tribe. Illinois does not.

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Quote
pRON aHOLIC
So you are telling me there is historical record of the actual Chief Illiniwek doing the splits in the air as part of tribal custom? How is this REMOTELY respectful?

Can you prove that he didn't? Huh?

Hmmmm...
A whiteguy (because no Native American would do such a dishonor to his family) dressed up in an outfit that is a parody of sacred garb, dancing around parodying a sacred ceremony, honors no one.
Do me a small favor SpearMint, do a little research on "Indian Schools", maybe you'll change your tune.
Here's a hint, after being forced out of tribal lands, being forced to being farmers after being hunters since time began. Then having their children taken away to be forced to learn another religion and language.

BGnR

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"Good heavens, Miss Sakamoto! You're beautiful!"
"If we dig precious things from the land, we will invite disaster."
"Near the day of Purification, there will be cobwebs spun back and forth in the sky."
"A container of ashes might one day be thrown from the sky, which could burn the land and boil the oceans."

So Custer and his troops were killed by peaceful hunters? They wereassailants until we subdued them. We are paying them off big time.

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Da Good Life

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spearmint
We are paying them off big time.

Ohmigosh...I can't believe you actually said that.

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pRON aHOLIC
If you want to be part of the NCAA, you must abide by their rules. Utah and FL. State have permission from the tribe. Illinois does not.

Seriously, does any team name themselves after something they don't have respect for? And if we are going disallow Indian names, then what about other historical people. The Trojans for example. Maybe Greeks should be appalled by USC's moniker depicting their ancestors as blood thirsty goons.

Perhaps we should just ban team names and icons that are named for humans. Then again PETA probably doesn't like teams like Mongoose, Falcons, Pythons or other animal names. So lets KO those too. We'll just stick to color names like Reds and Blacks. No, no. Sure to offend someone too. (I remember witches were offended when the Bullets changed their name to Wizards).

Sure I'm being a little silly, but I think the NCAA and other take this whole name thing a step too far. Sure, have respect the way the mascot reflects it's name sake, modify it if need be, but an outright ban is just nonsense.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2007 03:09PM by Chupa Chupa.

Quote
BigGuynRusty
Imagine someone dressed up in a garment that is supposed to represent your priest, or rabbi (or whatever your spiritual beleifs are) doing a really bad imitation of a very sacred and somber ceremony at halftime.

Imagine a priest making fun of a scared ceremony on national television?

It's easy, if you try.

It's a wonder the Roman Catholic religion survived.

Respect based on the terms and concepts regarding what the university considers respect doesn't necessarily constitute respect according to the supposed honored party.

-- moved topic --

Probably a waste of time since I'm sure the time is coming when all the teams will be named "The Ranch Flavored Doritos" or the "Vanilla Pepsi's". I hope my kid can play for the "Notre Dame Hostess Ding Dongs". I love those. kj.

Quote

How would you feel if you were a minority

I am a minority. I'm a monogamous married white male who is sole support of his family, where mom doesn't have a job outside the home but rather takes care of the home and children as her priority, and where the children go to school every day.

I demand equality. I demand a "month" of my own.

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In the words of DharmaDog: "it may or may not be utter horse@#$%&, but it shouldn't be dismissed simply because it doesn't agree with your opinion."

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Trying is the first step to failure. -- Homer Simpson

January, February, Elmo, April. kj.

Oh, God, can you imagine Elmo month?

I should have posted the thread here originally. I never guessed how many people believe in the NCAA can dictate School Tradition. Maybe the Illini and the University of Mississipi should play each other every week.

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Da Good Life

Let's imagine shall we?
Let's say we live in a time where Catholics are booted out of a European country. Then the people now occupying the country form teams for sporting events, one in particular has the a man in the Pope's ceremonial clothing dancing, doing air splits, firing up the crowd doing the Pope dance. Would that be paying respect? This is not acceptable to me and neither are tribes being mocked and depicted inaccurately. As I have said before, University and Utah and Florida State have approval from the tribes. U of Utah has input from the tribe on how depictions are suitable or offensive. The U of Utah provides scholarships to the tribe as part of the partnership.

As for Mint', sorry man, you just don't know and there is no convincing you. You don't live on a reservation. You don't have your tribal leaders considering storing nuclear waste on tribal lands just for revenue. Having spent time on the Navajo reservation, you can see how we have abandoned these people. Some do not have the same access to economic opportunities, healthcare and running water. To say you are proud of what this country has done for Native Americans really shows your lack of awareness of this issue.

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We killed them with kindness.

I have experience in Minnesota and Washington on Reservations and doubt they would object.

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Da Good Life

Owning and operating Mafia Gambling Casinoes is part of their Centuries long heritage, too.
What a bunch of PC bulls*&t.

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spearmint
So Custer and his troops were killed by peaceful hunters? They wereassailants until we subdued them. We are paying them off big time.

WTF are you babbling about?
Custer was sent out to do one thing, kill women, children, and the elderly to force the Native Americans to surrender.
He was given orders to avoid the war parties that had gathered together to defend their homeland.
I am a very peaceful person, but I would never sit idly by while my people are slaughtered.

BGnR
Stop drinking, start thinking.

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"Good heavens, Miss Sakamoto! You're beautiful!"
"If we dig precious things from the land, we will invite disaster."
"Near the day of Purification, there will be cobwebs spun back and forth in the sky."
"A container of ashes might one day be thrown from the sky, which could burn the land and boil the oceans."

Quote
billb
Owning and operating Mafia Gambling Casinoes is part of their Centuries long heritage, too.
What a bunch of PC bulls*&t.

Read my earlier quotes about the things Native American Tribes are doing out of desperation and over a century of abuse by those that took their lands. They would not have to resort to these kinds of things such as gambling and nuke waste. We can't go back but we can at least stop humiliating, degrading and mocking these people.

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Quote
Chupa Chupa

Quote
pRON aHOLIC
If you want to be part of the NCAA, you must abide by their rules. Utah and FL. State have permission from the tribe. Illinois does not.

{b}Seriously, does any team name themselves after something they don't have respect for?[/b] And if we are going disallow Indian names, then what about other historical people. The Trojans for example. Maybe Greeks should be appalled by USC's moniker depicting their ancestors as blood thirsty goons.

Perhaps we should just ban team names and icons that are named for humans. Then again PETA probably doesn't like teams like Mongoose, Falcons, Pythons or other animal names. So lets KO those too. We'll just stick to color names like Reds and Blacks. No, no. Sure to offend someone too. (I remember witches were offended when the Bullets changed their name to Wizards).

Sure I'm being a little silly, but I think the NCAA and other take this whole name thing a step too far. Sure, have respect the way the mascot reflects it's name sake, modify it if need be, but an outright ban is just nonsense.

Maybe. Check out th UC Santa Cruz Banana Slugs



or UC Irvine Anteaters

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"Who's more foolish - the fool or the fool that follows him?" - Obi Wan Kenobi

So Illini is no longer a reference to an almost dead native american tribe, but is short for Illinoisan?

So no more Oskee-wow-wow?

I went to Uof I and I enjoyed those halftime dances. The guys they pick to do this over the years were always top notch and handled the moment with intensity and grace and respect. It was cool to watch because he depicted, in his caricature of an Indian, graceful, figure. Anyone who has seen the various Chief's dance knows this. It made people stop and watch, period. Yes, it whipped up the crowd, for a great reason, it was inspirational in its own little way...as inspirational as something can be at a ball game.

The only way I viewed this event was as a celebration of the Indians...like they were trying to conjure up some of that spirit.

Im sure that the dance they were going for was some type of conflict preparation ritual..

Whether or not he was accurate in his steps etc has NOTHING to do with any of this...You can bet that Indians made up some steps in certain dances as well.

All you guys who are trying to make a point about, "what if it was a guy in a priests outfit" That is the biggest bunch of crap I've ever heard..you are trying to limit the parameters of this argument and the potential context. The guy was being a chief...not neccesarily a priest of some sort, he was a leader.

American Indians and many cultures dance for a huge variety of reasons. you guys know this so don't try to limit the scope of things to make your argument. Indians danced for ceremony, relgious/spiritual reasons, celebration, war, victory..marriage, friendship, as a display for visitors...catch a buzz? they were probably dancing after they caught that buzz. You think Indians didn't just sit around sometimes and jam with instruments? When they did..there were Indians who got up and busted a few moves, def moves..new moves..moves nobody had documented. Indians, like every other race, culture sometimes dance for no reason at all.

All you guys trying to make the discussion into one where whitey is making fun of Indians and trying to reinforce it by saying "what if it was you who were the minority and some guy dressed as..." you're off base. It wasn't that, it was something else.

If anything, The NCAA should have stepped in and assigned an Indian consultant to pick through the ritual and take away anything that was offensive. Like i said, I personally never witnessed anything but a display of respect, etc...I never once saw anything offensive. If you look at some video of the so called "3 in 1" that the Chief did...they always made it respectable.

This controversy has been going on for quite a while now, the Chief did not go down easily. the reason for that is simple..it's because the school handled this dance with respect for the Indians..it showed in the dance..It was hard for the people who were against this display to really pinpoint where the bad stuff was.

All this from a guy who is fairly sensitive to this sort of stuff.

Now, if you want to talk about a shaky representation of the American Indians...look at the Cleveland Indians logo, (unless they did away with that) not to sure wtf that thing was, made the Indians look like a bunch of clowns....

The Atlanta Braves hatchet thing..omg, later, that was what I would call offensive.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2007 12:12AM by Kraniac.

Hey, minty,
I can totally relate, dude-- don't let these folks get you down.
Like you, I'm a white guy who can totally relate to what it must be like to be any and every minority, and like you I feel that I should totally be able to judge what others find personally insulting, just by thinking about what I would find insulting if I were them, and since I'm a smart guy I think it's safe to say however I think these people should feel about things is way more accurate than how they say they feel; and anyone who is personally offended by something I don't think they should be offended by is a whiny loser, and anyone who acts to accomodate said losers is just "PC".
Stick to your guns, man, don't let these whiny PC types here get to you!

One more time Chief. You have thrilled so many . See ya buddy.




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2007 07:33AM by spearmint.

Just name teams after vegetables.

The Fighting Eggplants has a nice ring to it.

Quote
h'
Hey, minty,
I can totally relate, dude-- don't let these folks get you down.
Like you, I'm a white guy who can totally relate to what it must be like to be any and every minority, and like you I feel that I should totally be able to judge what others find personally insulting, just by thinking about what I would find insulting if I were them, and since I'm a smart guy I think it's safe to say however I think these people should feel about things is way more accurate than how they say they feel; and anyone who is personally offended by something I don't think they should be offended by is a whiny loser, and anyone who acts to accomodate said losers is just "PC".
Stick to your guns, man, don't let these whiny PC types here get to you!

Very well stated.

But you won't get through to 'mint. He likes the @#$%& and darnit, no red heathen is going to tell HIM what's offensive.

MANIFEST DESTINY, BIATCH!

Whats wrong with being warlike?....



++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Rome did not create agreat empire by holding meetings,
they did it by killing everybody who opposed them...

Perhaps the various tribes ought to be given automatic trademark/copyright protection, so they have exclusive use of the name and symbols. Then the Fightin' Illini can buy a license if they and the tribe so choose.

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what4
Just name teams after vegetables.

The Fighting Schiavos?

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In the words of DharmaDog: "it may or may not be utter horse@#$%&, but it shouldn't be dismissed simply because it doesn't agree with your opinion."

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Trying is the first step to failure. -- Homer Simpson

Having gone to over 40 games and loving halftime maybe not the games sometimes a little rough he made me proud. There certainly was no disrespect but only honor. The thumbsuckers who did this do not know pride or tradition.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2007 05:21PM by spearmint.

Quote
spearmint
Having gone to over 40 games and loving halftime maybe not the games sometimes a little rough he made me proud. There certainly was no disrespect but only honor. The thumbsuckers who did this do not know pride or tradition.

Damn straight! Screw those heathen bastards. We're honoring their worthless asses. If they can't see that, then we should finish the job we started & kill the remaining ungrateful sons of @#$%&!

Just like when we honored the Christians at halftime in the Roman days by feeding them to the lions. I bet some unthankful bastards still think that was persecution!

@#$%&' liberals!

I hope some fun Fraternity (Illinois has all the Nationals) will come up with their own Chief and keep the tradition. I can see thousands of people going to a privately sponsored rally with the Chief. Repercussions by the U would be totally inappropiate. Bstardos at NCAA could not touch a private organization. The Illini tribe could be invited in fact invited to dance. You cannot take such a thrill of my life away so easily. They are no longer in Illinois any more but Peoria,OK and Miami ( OH?)and not a presence in Illinois.

That would probably turn out like this:

[www.sfgate.com]

and this:

[media.www.dailytexanonline.com]

It is a honorable thing involving pride and tradition. I hope it is handled in a proper fashion.. Sorry to hear the morons are over the edge.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2007 03:19PM by spearmint.

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spearmint
It is a honorable thing involving pride and tradition.

Everybody's pride and tradition?

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Greg the dogsitter

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spearmint
It is a honorable thing involving pride and tradition.

Everybody's pride and tradition?

Sure except the PC crowd. I love the U of I as much as anything other than my family but I think there are no homecomings for me anymore. There is nobody who ever saw the Chief who could be negative. A celebration of an Indian Nation. If you are critical you never saw the Chief honor a proud tribe.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2007 05:05PM by spearmint.