And other than the stunt she pulled against Biden in the debates and her record as California AG, I'm not sure why. Just a feeling.

I can't put my finger on where this feeling is coming from.

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Last week a key Democrat essentially called her out as "uppity."

I like "uppity."

F it. Make her the president.

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Nothing personal about her, but I'd prefer someone from a state that will help him win more electoral votes, he doesn't need help in California.

And four years ago 45's base wasn't interested in a woman, and I don't think the reason why was because she was white, and they really wanted a black woman instead.

I'm hoping that whoever he picks will substantially improve his poll numbers. I also hope that it's not someone that can be easily be put on the defensive with a single tweet of a nickname.

It seems that you're not alone; apparently there's a fair bit of dislike of Kamala coming from certain quarters who are advising Biden. Interesting that one of the frontrunners is now Karen Bass, strongly encouraged by Pelosi not to be overlooked. It sounds like a major concern about Kamala is that she's too ambitious and might be eyeing the Presidency as soon as her foot is in the door.** [www.cnn.com]

Edit: another strike against Kamala is that she doesn't poll particularly well with African American voters. It also sounds like he's definitely looking for someone who will work well with him, particularly from the perspective of governance. One article I read basically said he's looking for someone who will have the same level of loyalty as the Bidens had towards the Obamas. I don't think you can blame him for that; it seemed like Joe worked very well with Barack, they definitely always seemed to be on the same wavelength, so Joe is probably looking for someone with whom he feels he's compatible.

**Edit #2, on the flip side, there's this: [www.forbes.com]

... I'm not crazy myself about Kamala, but if she can work well with Joe, that's a major plus.

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Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2020 08:19PM by PeterB.

Kamala Harris has risen quickly - and you can bet there are people who obviously think that she hasn't paid her dues. She did great work in California, and she continues to do so in the Senate. It may not be her time yet, but she's not going away …

You obviously don't know her record in California. You just know anecdotes spun out by her detractors.

I know someone that worked in the AG's office. Thought she was a little too political for the office, a little too ambitious. Then again she did follow Jerry Moonbeam. At the time I didn't know she spent a good chunk of her childhood just a few miles from me.

She's smart and knows how to build a group of advisors. The "downside" is I don't think she brings a lot to Biden that he is lacking compared to the others that seem to be on the list.

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In tha 360. MRF User Map

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Filliam H. Muffman
I know someone that worked in the AG's office. Thought she was a little too political for the office, a little too ambitious. Then again she did follow Jerry Moonbeam. At the time I didn't know she spent a good chunk of her childhood just a few miles from me.

She's smart and knows how to build a group of advisors. The "downside" is I don't think she brings a lot to Biden that he is lacking compared to the others that seem to be on the list.

It doesn't matter. Whoever he chooses, just support them. You know who you don't see submarining and undermining one another? MAGA's.

The person chosen has a good shot at being potus in four years (or sooner), so it had better be someone who can fill that role without too much nail biting worry.

I'm more concerned about the above than anything else. Harris can do the job, I believe, and better than most who are on the short list. It should be someone who the public will elect as president on their own.

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vision63
You obviously don't know her record in California. You just know anecdotes spun out by her detractors.

That is correct. I admittedly don't know much about her.

Are you saying she has a good record? That you support her?

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AllGold

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vision63
You obviously don't know her record in California. You just know anecdotes spun out by her detractors.

That is correct. I admittedly don't know much about her.

Are you saying she has a good record? That you support her?

Before she ran for president, the line on her was that she was irresponsibly soft on crime. Now it's that she's a mass incarcerating cop. But she's basically been a prosecutor (Alameda County) that would rather find alternatives to jail, a S.F. DA that developed alternatives to prison and some very creative anti-recidivism programs. She was a state Attorney General that basically crippled "for profit" colleges and saved many thousands of homes via California's "Keep you Home" program. She roasted big oil, big pharma etc.

I lived right in the middle of her work, she's from Oakland. I like her a lot, but I was hoping for Klobuchar to become veep. I don't care who he picks because they'll all do fine. They'll all surround themselves with incredibly smart professional talent.

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mrbigstuff
The person chosen has a good shot at being potus in four years (or sooner), so it had better be someone who can fill that role without too much nail biting worry.

I'm more concerned about the above than anything else. Harris can do the job, I believe, and better than most who are on the short list. It should be someone who the public will elect as president on their own.

The bar has been lowered so far by the idiot who is in there now, I am not worried about anyone on his short list.
I like some more than others, but any one of them is better, a lot better, than what we have now.

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Roswell, GA (Atlanta suburb)

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AllGold
And other than the stunt she pulled against Biden in the debates and her record as California AG, I'm not sure why. Just a feeling.

I can't put my finger on where this feeling is coming from.

Ugh. Shades of 2016. Clinton was among the most qualified candidates in recent history, and she was up against an absolute mess.

But, you know, there’s something I just don’t like about her, you know? Maybe it’s the pantsuits, and that laugh of hers.

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pdq
But, you know, there’s something I just don’t like about her, you know? Maybe it’s the pantsuits, and that laugh of hers.

"Uppity."

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Sarcany

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pdq
But, you know, there’s something I just don’t like about her, you know? Maybe it’s the pantsuits, and that laugh of hers.

"Uppity."

“She called us a name.”

It was that Pizza Parlor, you know the one …

Biden is a weak candidate, so he needs a good VP. I didn't like Kamala in the debates, and I don't think most people did. What vision says helps my perception of her, but who else is going to have that?

Klobuchar would be a good VP, but I can see why they won't do that. They need a good choice for VP, especially since no one has much faith in Biden living through his term. Plus, there was no possible way Trump could win, right? I heard it constantly. Not just anyone will do for VP. It's important people like the choice.

Nothing to do with "Uppity". That's just annoying.

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deckeda

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Sarcany

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pdq
But, you know, there’s something I just don’t like about her, you know? Maybe it’s the pantsuits, and that laugh of hers.

"Uppity."

“She called us a name.”

You paint with a grossly broad, inaccurate brush. It is possible to dislike a candidate for reasons regardless of gender. To contend otherwise is unfair and simplistic.

Many here did NOT favor Clinton as the Democratic candidate over Obama in the 2008 primaries, and some here did NOT favor her over Sanders in the 2016 primaries.

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AllGold
And other than the stunt she pulled against Biden in the debates and her record as California AG, I'm not sure why. Just a feeling.

I can't put my finger on where this feeling is coming from.

This is what unconscious bias feels like before you've identified the hidden source.

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rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future

I think Harris as a VP candidate would/will be very effective on the campaign trail. She can prosecute the hell out Trump and his administration.

She isn't my first choice to become president if something were to happen to a president Biden, but I feel confident she would be at least a really solid president if called on to do so.

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DeusxMac

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deckeda

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Sarcany

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pdq
But, you know, there’s something I just don’t like about her, you know? Maybe it’s the pantsuits, and that laugh of hers.

"Uppity."

“She called us a name.”

You paint with a grossly broad, inaccurate brush. It is possible to dislike a candidate for reasons regardless of gender. To contend otherwise is unfair and simplistic.

Many here did NOT favor Clinton as the Democratic candidate over Obama in the 2008 primaries, and some here did NOT favor her over Sanders in the 2016 primaries.

Was there supposed to be a conclusion here, that tied together your whataboutism? Perhaps we should go back further, to her blatant disregard for Country by refusing to bake cookies as First Lady?

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deckeda

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DeusxMac

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deckeda

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Sarcany

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pdq
But, you know, there’s something I just don’t like about her, you know? Maybe it’s the pantsuits, and that laugh of hers.

"Uppity."

“She called us a name.”

You paint with a grossly broad, inaccurate brush. It is possible to dislike a candidate for reasons regardless of gender. To contend otherwise is unfair and simplistic.

Many here did NOT favor Clinton as the Democratic candidate over Obama in the 2008 primaries, and some here did NOT favor her over Sanders in the 2016 primaries.

Was there supposed to be a conclusion here, that tied together your whataboutism? Perhaps we should go back further, to her blatant disregard for Country by refusing to bake cookies as First Lady?

I repeat... It is possible to dislike a candidate for reasons regardless of gender.

To contend otherwise is unfair and simplistic.

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DeusxMac
I repeat... It is possible to dislike a candidate for reasons regardless of gender.

Sure.

But if your first reaction is "I just don't like her" then you really should do a deep dive into where those feelings come from.

There's a lot of character assassination going on against women in politics that amounts to an argument that a woman who aspires to high office or aggressively pursues a political agenda is per se evil, misguided and unlikeable because such things are poor expressions of character for a woman. They'd be things to admire in a man.

We do the same to people of color. What's admirable in a white guy is a fault in someone whose skin is a few shades darker.

Our society seems to program that stuff into us. It's not your fault if your first reaction is to dislike her. But it is your fault if you don't examine where that comes from and take steps to squash that first reaction. Look at the candidate's record.

Harris isn't perfect, but overall her record is admirable, she's competent and capable, and if she aspires to the presidency how is that different from almost any other veep in history?

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2020 03:51PM by Sarcany.

People may be hoping for a repeat of the Obama/Biden relationship. It was unique and is unlikely to be available with anyone selected. For all the factors mentioned Biden is going to need a supportive Veep, not one who set out on their own agenda once inaugurated.

Trump has created such an ungodly mess it's hard to see it cleaned up in two terms, much less one. That second term may be hard to come by regardless who the nominee might come to be.

I think everyone noticed a certain attitude when Harris was challenged that didn't exude the kind of composure you would like to see from a presidential type. It's not easy to put your finger on exactly what it was (only part of it was visible anger), but I wouldn't like it coming from anyone. There are other ladies, of several ethnic backgrounds, I like a lot better, so I personally am pretty comfortable saying it's not her gender or ethnicity that is making me feel that way. Biden hasn't always been real smooth either, and I don't have any inclination to cut him slack due to his gender etc. Seriously, what was he known for as a VP?

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kj
I think everyone noticed a certain attitude when Harris was challenged that didn't exude the kind of composure you would like to see from a presidential type. It's not easy to put your finger on exactly what it was (only part of it was visible anger), but I wouldn't like it coming from anyone.

"Angry black woman" is another negative stereotype deployed against her.

Ever thought of looking at her accomplishments?

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It is possible to dislike a candidate for reasons regardless of gender.

To contend otherwise is unfair and simplistic.

Brillant observation, AND?

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Picasso in his studio after the liberation of Paris, taken by my friend and mentor.

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Sarcany

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DeusxMac
I repeat... It is possible to dislike a candidate for reasons regardless of gender.

Sure.

But your first reaction is "I just don't like her" then you really should do a deep dive into where those feelings come from.

Just to clarify:
- I did not say “I just don’t like her”
- my comments were responding to the inclusion of Clinton in this thread

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RgrF
People may be hoping for a repeat of the Obama/Biden relationship. It was unique and is unlikely to be available with anyone selected. For all the factors mentioned Biden is going to need a supportive Veep, not one who set out on their own agenda once inaugurated.

Biden seems inclined not to bother undoing much of what Drumpf has done, nor is he a progressive in any sense of the word when 85% of his party endorses a progressive agenda.

He needs a veep and chief of staff with a little chutzpah to drive him or he'll end up signing a few executive orders and then taking a nap, thinking the job is done.

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DeusxMac

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Sarcany

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DeusxMac
I repeat... It is possible to dislike a candidate for reasons regardless of gender.

Sure.

But your first reaction is "I just don't like her" then you really should do a deep dive into where those feelings come from.

Just to clarify:
- I did not say “I just don’t like her”
- my comments were responding to the inclusion of Clinton in this thread

And what was wrong with Clinton?

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Sarcany

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DeusxMac

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Sarcany

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DeusxMac
I repeat... It is possible to dislike a candidate for reasons regardless of gender.

Sure.

But your first reaction is "I just don't like her" then you really should do a deep dive into where those feelings come from.

Just to clarify:
- I did not say “I just don’t like her”
- my comments were responding to the inclusion of Clinton in this thread

And what was wrong with Clinton?

Go back and read the forum discussions from 2016; many points raised and discussed.

And please understand that reasonable people can disagree.

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This is what unconscious bias feels like before you've identified the hidden source.

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But if your first reaction is "I just don't like her" then you really should do a deep dive into where those feelings come from.

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It's not your fault if your first reaction is to dislike her. But it is your fault if you don't examine where that comes from and take steps to squash that first reaction.

Incredibly important and insightful observations. Implicit Bias is endemic and the only way to fight it is to always ask yourself if you have exercised it. Because it will evidence after a judgment, you must be ready to reset on a dime.

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Picasso in his studio after the liberation of Paris, taken by my friend and mentor.

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DeusxMac
Go back and read the forum discussions from 2016; many points raised and discussed.

Evasion.

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Sarcany

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DeusxMac
Go back and read the forum discussions from 2016; many points raised and discussed.

Evasion.

Hardly. Here’s just mine. There are others.
[forums.macresource.com]

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DeusxMac

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Sarcany

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DeusxMac
Go back and read the forum discussions from 2016; many points raised and discussed.

Evasion.

Hardly. Here’s just mine. There are others.
[forums.macresource.com]

That's an interesting thread to have picked. Your argument against her was completely nonsensical, but it spurred a good debate.

I was very outspoken against her in that thread.

Over time, as I learned more, I changed my mind. One reason for my own about-face was that I discovered that I had bought into biased reporting.

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Sarcany
I was very outspoken against her in that thread.

What name were you posting under then?

I think Harris is smart and ambitious.

I think that she is too opportunistic, and lacks a center core of values. Sort of like Buggegieg or Klobuchar, only sharper and more likable.

I'd be ok with her as VP, but she's certainly not my first choice.

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DeusxMac

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Sarcany
I was very outspoken against her in that thread.

What name were you posting under then?

Onamuji.

I thought it was common knowledge.

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Sarcany
Harris isn't perfect, but overall her record is admirable, she's competent and capable, and if she aspires to the presidency how is that different from almost any other veep in history?

It's also a form of bias to NOT hold someone to the same standards as everyone else. I think the issue isn't that she aspires to the presidency, you'd expect that for any VP candidate, male or female, black or white. It's that she allegedly has the level of ambition where she'd be aspiring to it from day one, which could be a problem; and this would be true for ANY candidate.

And for the record, I heavily favored Hillary for 2016 ... yes, I know she's super-ambitious too, but she was also super-qualified. I also DON'T think Joe is as weak a candidate as some might think; his ads have been beyond inspiring, and very interestingly, not very negative. Smartly (I think), he's offering honesty and hope, whereas Orange Dump is just offering hate and division.

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Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)

Some politicians aren't all that great at campaigning but great at governing. Kamala tries too hard sometimes. It's to counter a huge effort to establish negative narratives against her. Not really for her gender or color, but people like her represent certain threats.

Calling out Joe for opposing a certain instance of busing, was to paint him as being racially oppressive. That was not only unfair to Joe, a genuinely caring guy, but not even Black people bought it. Even her story about her own busing travails was a big stretch. None of Berkley's schools were really segregated. Berkeley is just a few miles this way and few miles that way. Plus all kids in Berkeley attended the same single High School, Berkeley High.

When you're not the frontrunner, you gotta figure out some kind of way to chop that tree down. It's hard to do when the frontrunner is pretty good guy. So you have to go a bit low. But she only did it that one sequence and she jumped on board the second she quit.

By and large, she's a good campaigner overall. Also nothing is stopping any Democrat from competing in 2024.

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vision63
Calling out Joe for opposing a certain instance of busing, was to paint him as being racially oppressive. That was not only unfair to Joe, a genuinely caring guy, but not even Black people bought it.

Black voters are generally smart enough to recognize that their choices default to a bunch of old (racist) white guys. Given the choice, they pick the old white guy most likely to screw them gently rather than the one screwing them hard.

That doesn't mean they like him or buy his "Uncle Joe" routine.

A lot of people remember a different Joe Biden.

[www.vox.com]

“To the extent that black people are saying that they support Joe Biden, I think that they are supporting who they think has the highest likelihood of being competitive in a general election and their opinion of Barack Obama.”

However, she adds, “I don’t think they like Biden as an independent person who’s running and has policies they are enamored with.”

(A tiny excerpt from a good long article worth a read even though it's a bit dated.)

Biden is not the ideal candidate. He's the only candidate.

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pdq

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AllGold
And other than the stunt she pulled against Biden in the debates and her record as California AG, I'm not sure why. Just a feeling.

I can't put my finger on where this feeling is coming from.

Ugh. Shades of 2016. Clinton was among the most qualified candidates in recent history, and she was up against an absolute mess.

But, you know, there’s something I just don’t like about her, you know? Maybe it’s the pantsuits, and that laugh of hers.

Don't misrepresent me. I had zero beefs with Hillary. Zero.

And in general, I prefer if politicians are women. If anything, I'm reverse-misogynistic when it comes to people in politics and other positions of power.

I'm all for Warren or Duckworth or Bass or Demmings or Rice or whomever as VP. It was just Harris that bothered me a little. Mostly because of the debates. I admitted I don't know much about her and vision63 allayed my concerns about her record. I trust him, so that part of it is out. We still have the debates, however.

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vision63


Calling out Joe for opposing a certain instance of busing, was to paint him as being racially oppressive. That was not only unfair to Joe, a genuinely caring guy, but not even Black people bought it. Even her story about her own busing travails was a big stretch. None of Berkley's schools were really segregated. Berkeley is just a few miles this way and few miles that way. Plus all kids in Berkeley attended the same single High School, Berkeley High.

Felt like it was definitely a calculated risk on her part - it was definitely rehearsed - and it backfired on her. Yes, she was able to get some important things on the record - things that hurt her deeply and personally growing up Black - but she could've done so and still come out the rose instead of the thorn that night. THAT is where she needs to spend more time in the months ahead. How to get her message out there and make it count. She has a lot to say, and she's got a good head on her shoulders. She's coming into her own now - and it's a good time to be doing so.

[www.cnn.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2020 08:08PM by bfd.

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vision63
None of Berkley's schools were really segregated. Berkeley is just a few miles this way and few miles that way.

It is glaringly obvious you did not attend schools in North Berkeley in 1968.

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In tha 360. MRF User Map

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kj
I think everyone noticed a certain attitude...

There are other ladies, of several ethnic backgrounds, I like a lot better...

Sorry to nitpick, but I think you’re generalizing - I didn’t like her attitude, therefore everyone must have noticed and disapproved of her attitude.

Is “attitude” the way you judge male candidates? Have you ever said you don’t like Trump’s attitude?

...and while I don’t think lady is always pejorative, when one starts talking about lady candidates, or lady doctors, or lady professionals-of-any-sort, it kind of grates. You might say it suggests a certain attitude on the part of the speaker.

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pdq

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kj
I think everyone noticed a certain attitude...

There are other ladies, of several ethnic backgrounds, I like a lot better...

Sorry to nitpick, but I think you’re generalizing - I didn’t like her attitude, therefore everyone must have noticed and disapproved of her attitude.

Is “attitude” the way you judge male candidates? Have you ever said you don’t like Trump’s attitude?

...and while I don’t think lady is always pejorative, when one starts talking about lady candidates, or lady doctors, or lady professionals-of-any-sort, it kind of grates. You might say it suggests a certain attitude on the part of the speaker.

Geez, I mean why " deep dive into where those feelings come from", when there are so many people who are experts on completely unbiased, rational thinking to tell you when you are biased?

I'll be more specific and say Tulsi Gabbard fricken' ate her lunch, and part of it was Harris' response to her. The attitude was that Tulsi was beneath her. It did not come off well to most people, and I have a particular problem with that attitude (Fwiw, I can't even imagine caring about a woman's attitudes and not a man's. That's just bizarre). But, if Tulsi can ruffle her like that, I don't know how that's a positive. Polarization is a huge problem, and if she's going to help "unite" people, she needs to be better at that type of thing than she's demonstrated. If you look up her "values" they are all stated in terms of how she disagrees with Trump. I think it's less divisive to just put you're values out there. But then, I see that as a major flaw in the thinking of the Democratic party. At least at times they seem to think they need to out Trump, Trump. That's not even possible, and why would you want to? Just do your own thing, and if that doesn't work, so be it. I think part of the draw for Harris is that she is tough enough to "take on" the opposition, and that's the wrong way to approach things in my opinion. But I could be wrong about her, so we'll see how things shake out.

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kj
...if Tulsi can ruffle her like that, I don't know how that's a positive.

In Harris' defense, Tulsi Gabbard is a freak and it would have weirded me out for a moment, too, to have her turn from talking about aliens beaming messages of peace into our heads and segue into a pithy criticism of Harris' record of harshly prosecuting people for simple marijuana possession in an era of decriminalization.

I don't think that anyone would have prepped for something like that from Gabbard. It'd be like Drumpf suddenly coming up with an attack on Biden with a concise summary and operative quotes from Justice Warren in the Brown vs Board of Education decision. You'd need a minute just to process that he spoke in whole sentences.

My mistake. See below.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2020 08:44PM by Sarcany.

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Sarcany
Tulsi Gabbard is a freak and it would have weirded me out for a moment, too, to have her turn from talking about aliens beaming messages of peace into our heads...

I think you’re confusing Gabbard with Marianne Williamson.

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Sarcany

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kj
...if Tulsi can ruffle her like that, I don't know how that's a positive.

In Harris' defense, Tulsi Gabbard is a freak and it would have weirded me out for a moment, too, to have her turn from talking about aliens beaming messages of peace into our heads and segue into a pithy criticism of Harris' record of harshly prosecuting people for simple marijuana possession in an era of decriminalization.

I don't think that anyone would have prepped for something like that from Gabbard. It'd be like Drumpf suddenly coming up with an attack on Biden with a concise summary and operative quotes from Justice Warren in the Brown vs Board of Education decision. You'd need a minute just to process that he spoke in whole sentences.

Yeah, I don't know where that alien thing is coming from, but I was never really bothered by the fact she was knocked on her heels a bit, as that was a pretty aggressive move by Tulsi.

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DeusxMac

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Sarcany
Tulsi Gabbard is a freak and it would have weirded me out for a moment, too, to have her turn from talking about aliens beaming messages of peace into our heads...

I think you’re confusing Gabbard with Marianne Williamson.

You are absolutely right. My apologies to Tulsi Gabbard.

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