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Pfizer and Moderna's vaccines will be distribution nightmares...
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: November 17, 2020 10:46PM
Another bunch of reasons why a traditional vaccine is a better solution and will probably be the ultimate way this goes.

[www.cbsnews.com]

Pfizer's vaccine must be kept at nearly minus 100 degrees Fahrenheit to remain effective. That's about 20 degrees colder than extreme winter temperatures at the South Pole. Early on, experts warned that the U.S. lacked the necessary ultra-cold storage trucks and cargo planes needed to ship hundreds of millions of doses at sub-sub-zero temperatures.

In order to get around that, Pfizer has developed specially built deep-freeze "suitcases" that can be tightly sealed and shipped even in non-refrigerated trucks. But while Pfizer may have solved the problem of how to ship the frozen vaccine, these highly engineered shipping containers create other problems, particularly for the hospitals, pharmacies and outpatient clinics that will have to administer the vaccinations to hundreds of millions of Americans.

Among the many logistical and medical challenges that experts say will have to be overcome when vaccines are ready to roll...




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Re: Pfizer and Moderna's vaccines will be distribution nightmares...
Posted by: AllGold
Date: November 18, 2020 02:29AM
Pfizer, yes, but Moderna's vaccine requires only -4F, plus it can be kept refrigerated (not frozen) for up to 30 days and will even last up to 12 hours at room temperature.

What I have wondered about and haven't heard is how will Pfizer's vaccine be injected? At what temperature? How long at room temperature? It can't possibly be required to be injected at -100F.



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Re: Pfizer and Moderna's vaccines will be distribution nightmares...
Posted by: Speedy
Date: November 18, 2020 05:34AM
[www.washingtonpost.com]

[www.washingtonpost.com]

The final effectiveness of the Pfizer vaccine may waver as the trial continues, but it appears to be far above the minimum threshold set by regulators, requiring it be at least 50 percent effective. The FDA has also set forth a requirement for five severe cases of the disease in the placebo group, but Jansen said that to preserve the integrity of the trial, Pfizer’s scientists remain blind to the details of the cases at this time.

The vaccine uses a new technology never before deployed in an approved medical product. Each injection contains lipid nanoparticles — fat bubbles — that surround a strip of genetic material called messenger RNA. The genetic material carries the blueprint for the distinctive spiky protein that studs the coronavirus surface. After being injected into a person’s arm, the fat capsule delivers its payload to the body’s cells, and the messenger RNA instructs those cells to build the spike protein, effectively teaching the immune system how to recognize and block the coronavirus.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/18/2020 05:37AM by Speedy.
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Re: Pfizer and Moderna's vaccines will be distribution nightmares...
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: November 18, 2020 07:23AM
Quote
AllGold
Pfizer, yes, but Moderna's vaccine requires only -4F, plus it can be kept refrigerated (not frozen) for up to 30 days and will even last up to 12 hours at room temperature.

Moderna's vaccine also must be shipped frozen, although at comparatively less frigid -4 degrees Fahrenheit. Still, that will require the company to secure hundreds of refrigerated trucks, while the vaccine can only be kept in a standard refrigerator for up to seven days.

...And there's a severe shortage of refrigerator trucks in this country. They can't get enough to supply morgues and mail-order food services. Manufacturers are quoting a minimum of 8 months of back-orders.

And there's a shortage of truck drivers.

And there's a shortage of freezers due both to COVID/labor issues and to the Orange Dump's tariffs which have caused shortages of critical parts and quality steel.







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/18/2020 07:31AM by Sarcany.
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Re: Pfizer and Moderna's vaccines will be distribution nightmares...
Posted by: Speedy
Date: November 18, 2020 07:58AM
I would hate to be hauling a load of vaccine and have my refrigeration unit go down along the road. The cargo insurance would be $$$$$.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Pfizer and Moderna's vaccines will be distribution nightmares...
Posted by: sekker
Date: November 18, 2020 08:10AM
These issues will be solved down the road.

There are far better nanotech formulations than Pfizer selected, but the one Pfizer used has good safety data in people Jan 2020.

People can choose - safe, known, stable and 10x slower or fast, less stable and some safety, and more stable, fast and safety unknown at this time.

Make your own vaccine adventure - pick two of three.
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Re: Pfizer and Moderna's vaccines will be distribution nightmares...
Posted by: PeterB
Date: November 18, 2020 09:07AM
Quote
sekker
These issues will be solved down the road.

There are far better nanotech formulations than Pfizer selected, but the one Pfizer used has good safety data in people Jan 2020.

People can choose - safe, known, stable and 10x slower or fast, less stable and some safety, and more stable, fast and safety unknown at this time.

Make your own vaccine adventure - pick two of three.

I may end waiting for option #1. The long-term safety profile of mRNA vaccines is unknown ... I haven't been able to find any data on it, not surprising because it's such new tech. I don't think it'll necessarily be 10x slower though... there are a couple of vaccines out of China, as well as some in the UK and US, that are in stage 3 and look promising.

Edit: an interesting read on the mRNA viruses: [www.jpost.com] ... I guess one of my concerns is the fact that the mRNA being used is highly modified with artificial bases, etc. We just don't know what the persistence of this mRNA will be, whether it will eventually broken down, if it could somehow be converted into DNA and integrate into the genome, etc. (The claim is that the latter would never happen, but as those of us who know genetics know, never say never... there is almost always an exception to a rule.)




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/18/2020 09:12AM by PeterB.
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Re: Pfizer and Moderna's vaccines will be distribution nightmares...
Posted by: pdq
Date: November 18, 2020 09:20AM
Also, as I think has been brought up here before, another unknown relates to the binding site for the virus - the ACE II receptor. Could an antibody developed against this receptor act like angiotensin in a minority of people? Could it block the normal breakdown of angiotensin in a minority of people?

Doesn’t seem to be a problem so far, but we’re about to increase n from n=35K to n=300M.
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Re: Pfizer and Moderna's vaccines will be distribution nightmares...
Posted by: PeterB
Date: November 18, 2020 10:26AM
Quote
pdq
Also, as I think has been brought up here before, another unknown relates to the binding site for the virus - the ACE II receptor. Could an antibody developed against this receptor act like angiotensin in a minority of people? Could it block the normal breakdown of angiotensin in a minority of people?

Doesn’t seem to be a problem so far, but we’re about to increase n from n=35K to n=300M.

Yes, I have brought that issue up here before, that if you're making a spike protein, and the normal function of a spike protein is to bind to the ACE2 receptor, how will that work in terms of the body's making antibodies against the protein? And what about those of us who are on ACE inhibitors or ARB's?




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: Pfizer and Moderna's vaccines will be distribution nightmares...
Posted by: sekker
Date: November 18, 2020 10:55AM
I use synthetic mRNA for my science daily. I have no concerns the mRNA itself is a health risk.

The nanotech formulation could be an issue when regularly used over time, however.

The specific epitopes being encoded by each mRNA vaccine is of course legitimate safety issues. Those will only be answered by following the vaccine roll-out. I hope whatever unexpected can be managed.
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Re: Pfizer and Moderna's vaccines will be distribution nightmares...
Posted by: PeterB
Date: November 18, 2020 12:56PM
Quote
sekker
I use synthetic mRNA for my science daily. I have no concerns the mRNA itself is a health risk.

The nanotech formulation could be an issue when regularly used over time, however.

The specific epitopes being encoded by each mRNA vaccine is of course legitimate safety issues. Those will only be answered by following the vaccine roll-out. I hope whatever unexpected can be managed.

Respectfully, there's a difference between using synthetic mRNA in research, and injecting a highly modified mRNA into the human body. I think I'd be concerned that the base mods they're making -- which I presume are to increase stability when complexed with the lipid nanoparticles, to help the mRNA to get into cells, or to improve protein expression -- may end up being seen as "foreign" by the body ... which though it might not cause long-term side-effects, might also reduce effectiveness in some individuals. Also there's the possibility that the modifications made, and the process through which they're made, could be toxic to the injected person. If the modified nucleotides are just the same that are found in tRNA, I might not be so concerned, but I'm not sure they all are -- since the method is proprietary, we may not know all the mods they're making to these mRNAs.




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: Pfizer and Moderna's vaccines will be distribution nightmares...
Posted by: Bill in NC
Date: November 18, 2020 06:50PM
I vote PeterB as MRF's test subject as it is clear only he can properly document any side effects. smiling smiley

As for the -4ºF requirement, my kitchen freezer can maintain that temperature, so I don't see it as an obstacle...and that's "warm" enough that the vaccine could be shipped using dry ice.
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Re: Pfizer and Moderna's vaccines will be distribution nightmares...
Posted by: Speedy
Date: November 18, 2020 08:55PM
For us lay people, how it works:

[www.washingtonpost.com]



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Pfizer and Moderna's vaccines will be distribution nightmares...
Posted by: bfd
Date: November 18, 2020 10:25PM
Nightmares?

A fair percentage of the 300 million people in this country alone will need the vaccination. A possibly lesser percentage of the world's population also need inoculations - but we're still talking an impressively large N.

Where will all the Covid Jungle Juice come from? It'll take time and a whole lotta luck to actually be one of the lucky ones who get the shots next year.
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