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A clarifying key to Trump's appeal
Posted by: tuqqer
Date: November 27, 2020 09:48AM
THE KEY TO TRUMP'S APPEAL

A massive weight, that I have personally felt for the past 4 years, was lifted yesterday by listening to this 8-minute podcast from Sam Harris (neuroscientist, 5-time NYT best-selling author), where he describes his insight into why so many human beings supported Trump.

I found so much relief from Sam's perspective that it almost feels like a healing on many levels—it was that physically palpable for me—and it has helped me understand human behavior far beyond this election—history, certain friends' conduct, and so much more.

I get that this is just my perception and response to his insight, and it won't work for everyone (probably right at half). But if it helps even one other person more fully move on from this debacle like it has me, then there you go.

The link to Sam's YouTube 8-minute podcast:
[youtu.be]

The formatted transcript can be found in a JPG form here:
[i.imgur.com]



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Re: A clarifying key to Trump's appeal
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: November 27, 2020 10:26AM
Well Harris is always provocative. That piece will help Republicans embarrased by Trump feel better about themselves. Esp. his white male supporters.
Harris reinforces right wing bigotry through maligning of identity politics.

Belief in equality for all people is not sanctimony, as Harris claims. It's the core founding principle of our nation.
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Re: A clarifying key to Trump's appeal
Posted by: RgrF
Date: November 27, 2020 10:51AM
Quote
Lemon Drop
Well Harris is always provocative. That piece will help Republicans embarrased by Trump feel better about themselves. Esp. his white male supporters.
Harris reinforces right wing bigotry through maligning of identity politics.

Belief in equality for all people is not sanctimony, as Harris claims. It's the core founding principle of our nation.

Our high minded principles have never had feet on the ground, not to say we ought to not cling to those principals but no realistic assessment of American history would ever claim we even came close to approximating what we espouse.

If the United States of America had another middle name it would be Hypocrisy.
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Re: A clarifying key to Trump's appeal
Posted by: pdq
Date: November 27, 2020 11:13AM
Quote
RgrF

If the United States of America had another middle name it would be Hypocrisy.

My concern exactly when it comes to the news that someone assassinated an(other) Iranian nuclear scientist in Iran.

Two can play that game. And if they were to, people would (rightly) be outraged if Iran assassinated one of our scientific or political figures in Washington (although, after Khashoggi, I guess inconvenient journalists might be fair game).

Anyway, we’d freak out (as perhaps we should), and there would be voices for war. How far does the concept of American exceptionalism go?
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Re: A clarifying key to Trump's appeal
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: November 27, 2020 03:43PM
Quote
RgrF
Quote
Lemon Drop
Well Harris is always provocative. That piece will help Republicans embarrased by Trump feel better about themselves. Esp. his white male supporters.
Harris reinforces right wing bigotry through maligning of identity politics.

Belief in equality for all people is not sanctimony, as Harris claims. It's the core founding principle of our nation.

Our high minded principles have never had feet on the ground, not to say we ought to not cling to those principals but no realistic assessment of American history would ever claim we even came close to approximating what we espouse.

If the United States of America had another middle name it would be Hypocrisy.


You're confusing principle and practice. Surely you don't suggest that nothing has changed since 1787. It's not 1787, its not 1977 either. The arc keeps bending towards those principles, that's why the straight white males are losing their minds.

Apparently it's a surprise to tuqqer and Sam Harris but not to most of us.
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Re: A clarifying key to Trump's appeal
Posted by: DinerDave
Date: November 27, 2020 04:24PM
Thanks for posting.

I also had the A-Ha moment there, putting things into perspective.

Dave



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Re: A clarifying key to Trump's appeal
Posted by: sekker
Date: November 27, 2020 07:54PM
Quote
DinerDave
Thanks for posting.

I also had the A-Ha moment there, putting things into perspective.

Dave

Agreed, was a good 8 min listening.

But doesn't solve the riddle that we should seek to elect those that we look up to, no charlatans.
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Re: A clarifying key to Trump's appeal
Posted by: Sam3
Date: November 30, 2020 04:15AM
Am I understanding this correctly? He is basically saying that the Left's messaging is driving support for Trump? So in other words it's the Left's fault we have half the country pro-Trump?



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--Ronald Tucker on YouTube

A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it is not open.
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Re: A clarifying key to Trump's appeal
Posted by: tuqqer
Date: November 30, 2020 05:28AM
Quote
Sam3
Am I understanding this correctly? He is basically saying that the Left's messaging is driving support for Trump? So in other words it's the Left's fault we have half the country pro-Trump?

I don't think that was his point. My take is that he's saying that many humans (about half of us) have a brain that is wired (or they wired themselves over time) to not be comfortable with measures of self-doubt, regrets, shame, the whole list, and Trump modeled for them a way to not have to deal with all of that—a total expiation (I had to look that one up: atonement, complete absolvement, relief) of any bad feelings they had about themselves, their behavior, their past, the country's history. No matter if that required massive levels of lying, ignoring facts, and so forth.

I don't understand it, just as I don't understand why people join cults or many other belief systems. or why someone would marry a sociopath or narcissist. But this did help me get a framework for it, enough so that I can recalibrate how I see the world and get on with living life. I'm definitely changed, at least for now. I'm feeling that precisely one out of every two people that I ever meet from here on out is probably susceptible to people like Trump, and that is still unnerving.



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Re: A clarifying key to Trump's appeal
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: November 30, 2020 11:18AM
Quote
Sam3
Am I understanding this correctly? He is basically saying that the Left's messaging is driving support for Trump? So in other words it's the Left's fault we have half the country pro-Trump?


Yes. That is what he is saying. If you women and people of color wouldn't be so damn sanctimonious and uppity, there'd be no Trump. But you give us no choice. Very on brand for Sam Harris.
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Re: A clarifying key to Trump's appeal
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: November 30, 2020 01:57PM
Quote
tuqqer
Quote
Sam3
Am I understanding this correctly? He is basically saying that the Left's messaging is driving support for Trump? So in other words it's the Left's fault we have half the country pro-Trump?

I don't think that was his point. My take is that he's saying that many humans (about half of us) have a brain that is wired (or they wired themselves over time) to not be comfortable with measures of self-doubt, regrets, shame, the whole list, and Trump modeled for them a way to not have to deal with all of that—a total expiation (I had to look that one up: atonement, complete absolvement, relief) of any bad feelings they had about themselves, their behavior, their past, the country's history. No matter if that required massive levels of lying, ignoring facts, and so forth.

I don't understand it, just as I don't understand why people join cults or many other belief systems. or why someone would marry a sociopath or narcissist. But this did help me get a framework for it, enough so that I can recalibrate how I see the world and get on with living life. I'm definitely changed, at least for now. I'm feeling that precisely one out of every two people that I ever meet from here on out is probably susceptible to people like Trump, and that is still unnerving.

First of all, he twists the concept of expiation in the Xian tradition beyond recognition in this essay; followers of Jesus as Messiah probably underwent a head-explodey moment at that section. Christ does not offer, nor does Christianity promise, any forgiveness of sins that the sinner doesn't acknowledge as transgressions of the greatest kind - crimes against God Himself. I don't know if Harris is Xian, but if he is he must embrace a very odd theology.

Second of all, his main point is: cis-white, heterosexual makes, plus the larger groups of racist, homophobic, transphobic, Islamophobic, sexist, barbarians are incredibly fragile cry-babies, and the country would be better off if we could just stop criticizing them because it makes them feel bad. And when these people feel bad, they reach out for a redemptive demon of the highest order for help.

Two stupid ideas presented in under eight minutes. Bravo.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: A clarifying key to Trump's appeal
Posted by: PeterB
Date: November 30, 2020 04:24PM
Jeez. Reading his piece (I didn't have the patience to watch the YouTube), I'm struck by two things:

1) Two wrongs do not make a right. People who like Dump because he doesn't "judge" them, well, that just means that they're embracing a sociopath so that they can feel better about themselves. If you think that's acceptable, fine, but let's not beat around the bush on this one: we've seen this before. Germany, 1933. Italy, 1935. There are plenty of other examples. [www.washingtonpost.com]

2) He's giving an "out" to those cis, white males who supported Dump. Well, guess what, I'm one of those same cis, white males, but one who never supported Dump and who doesn't believe that my fellow cis, white males should be let off the hook so easily. Specifically, the practical whole of the Republican party who elevated this guy, enabled him, fed his ego and crazy behavior, and almost allowed him to have a second term. Who, even now, won't acknowledge the rightfully-elected President and Vice-President Elects; and who have sold out their country in favor of party and the narcissism of identity politics they so frequently accuse the left of employing.

Honestly, I'm sick of the left trying to come up with explanations for the Cult of Dump™. I think we have to admit at this point that about half the country has been deluded/indoctrinated and now needs a serious case of deprogramming.




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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/30/2020 04:27PM by PeterB.
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Re: A clarifying key to Trump's appeal
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: November 30, 2020 05:33PM
Quote
PeterB
Jeez. Reading his piece (I didn't have the patience to watch the YouTube), I'm struck by two things:

1) Two wrongs do not make a right. People who like Dump because he doesn't "judge" them, well, that just means that they're embracing a sociopath so that they can feel better about themselves. If you think that's acceptable, fine, but let's not beat around the bush on this one: we've seen this before. Germany, 1933. Italy, 1935. There are plenty of other examples. [www.washingtonpost.com]

2) He's giving an "out" to those cis, white males who supported Dump. Well, guess what, I'm one of those same cis, white males, but one who never supported Dump and who doesn't believe that my fellow cis, white males should be let off the hook so easily. Specifically, the practical whole of the Republican party who elevated this guy, enabled him, fed his ego and crazy behavior, and almost allowed him to have a second term. Who, even now, won't acknowledge the rightfully-elected President and Vice-President Elects; and who have sold out their country in favor of party and the narcissism of identity politics they so frequently accuse the left of employing.

Honestly, I'm sick of the left trying to come up with explanations for the Cult of Dump™. I think we have to admit at this point that about half the country has been deluded/indoctrinated and now needs a serious case of deprogramming.

Thanks, PeterB, for your thoughtful reply.

The reality is that the overwhelming majority of cisgender, heterosexual, White men did vote for the incumbent.

You are right to be offended by being lumped in with that group. But, as it is with me (I'm not heterosexual, but otherwise I fit the description), we can't just disclaim our brethren that support White supremacy. We have to be the front line in the war against this terror, and that means not just disagreeing, but being willing to lose our relationships with loved ones, our privileged employment arrangements, and possibly our bodily safety in order to seek real justice.

A civil war has casualties. It's time that those of us with the most privilege start to say that we deserve to be the cannon fodder in this war. It's not fair. War is never fair. But every time we try to preserve our status while fighting for justice for the excluded, we fail.

I can't maintain my middle class life if I want true justice. I can point at the rich and say it's their responsibility to sacrifice, but that's not honestly how war works.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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