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We don't have a plan and we're not going to have a plan...even for vaccine roll out
Posted by: mattkime
Date: January 02, 2021 10:57AM
Who the hell should be in charge of vaccine roll out? It doesn't seem like this should be difficult. Putting shots in arms should be easy and yet here we are. Initially I was skeptical that vaccine rollout issues were systematic but headlines aren't changing.

Who should be in charge? Why are multiple levels of bureaucracy failing?

---

On a similar note - I'm thankful that my local covid numbers are down from a peak more than a month ago BUT testing is down as well! We still don't have a plan for testing! More and more people should be tested more and more frequently and it clear thats not happening. We're testing people who either think they're sick or want to verify they're not. Thats haphazard at best.

Why aren't we demanding leadership? It seems like this should be the domain of opposition political parties.



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Re: We don't have a plan and we're not going to have a plan...even for vaccine roll out
Posted by: RgrF
Date: January 02, 2021 11:22AM
In a hierarchical society, everything rolls downhill. When the highest authorities abandon or abscond from their duty, the pyramid dissolves.
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Re: We don't have a plan and we're not going to have a plan...even for vaccine roll out
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: January 02, 2021 11:22AM
A record one million diagnosed as infected in just one week. So much winning. RollingEyesSmiley5



In tha 360. MRF User Map
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Re: We don't have a plan and we're not going to have a plan...even for vaccine roll out
Posted by: kj
Date: January 02, 2021 11:39AM
"Why are multiple levels of bureaucracy failing?"

Bureaucracy is nearly synonymous with "fail", so multiple levels of fail pretty much = a fail. I mean, that could be part of it. They are running into lots of things they didn't expect, and bureaucracies don't "roll with it", so each obstacle is huge. For example, 60% of health workers in Florida refused the vaccine, so then they have to do a bunch of bureaucrating to figure out what to do with the extra, etc.
I almost wonder if they should have just started grabbing people and sticking them, with no decisions to make.
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Re: We don't have a plan and we're not going to have a plan...even for vaccine roll out
Posted by: GGD
Date: January 02, 2021 11:45AM
The problem is that the pros/cons of the decision making works both ways.

Remember back in April when 45 want to reopen the country, and the individual states said that it's a state issue and the feds can't tell them what to do. Well, now it seems like the same situation with the vaccine administration planning, the feds will deliver it but it's up to the states to deal with the local planing.
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Re: We don't have a plan and we're not going to have a plan...even for vaccine roll out
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: January 02, 2021 11:53AM
Quote
GGD
Well, now it seems like the same situation with the vaccine administration planning, the feds will deliver it but it's up to the states to deal with the local planing.

And in many GOP-led states, the shit continues to roll downhill from the governor's office. For example, in Maryland only about 11% of all received vaccines have been used from the total delivered doses. Why? If you ask the governor, he points to the counties and says it's THEIR responsibility to get vaccines into arms, not his....

Slithering sleazeballs...



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2021 11:53AM by rjmacs.
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Re: We don't have a plan and we're not going to have a plan...even for vaccine roll out
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: January 02, 2021 12:20PM
Quote
rjmacs
in Maryland only about 11% of all received vaccines have been used from the total delivered doses...

That's been a big concern of mine since they first started talking about the fragility of mRNA vaccines.

My ignorant guess is that upwards of 30% will be spoiled due to cooling problems and shipping distribution delays.

...Big question on top of that: How will they know if it has been spoiled and shouldn't be used?

Second ignorant guess is that we're going to get reports of people who were vaccinated and still got the bug, some hospitalized and it will be traced back to spoiled vaccines.



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Re: We don't have a plan and we're not going to have a plan...even for vaccine roll out
Posted by: mattkime
Date: January 02, 2021 12:25PM
Quote
kj
Bureaucracy is nearly synonymous with "fail", so multiple levels of fail pretty much = a fail.

Isn't this just setting a low standard?
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Re: We don't have a plan and we're not going to have a plan...even for vaccine roll out
Posted by: RgrF
Date: January 02, 2021 12:29PM
The speed with which misinformation travels is perhaps more a threat than any misapplication might ever be.
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Re: We don't have a plan and we're not going to have a plan...even for vaccine roll out
Posted by: hal
Date: January 02, 2021 12:51PM
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
GGD
Well, now it seems like the same situation with the vaccine administration planning, the feds will deliver it but it's up to the states to deal with the local planing.

And in many GOP-led states, the shit continues to roll downhill from the governor's office. For example, in Maryland only about 11% of all received vaccines have been used from the total delivered doses. Why? If you ask the governor, he points to the counties and says it's THEIR responsibility to get vaccines into arms, not his....

Slithering sleazeballs...

and then the counties drop the load upon the hospitals that are already short on manpower - there is no one in charge at any level.
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Re: We don't have a plan and we're not going to have a plan...even for vaccine roll out
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: January 02, 2021 01:14PM
Quote
Sarcany
Quote
rjmacs
in Maryland only about 11% of all received vaccines have been used from the total delivered doses...

That's been a big concern of mine since they first started talking about the fragility of mRNA vaccines.

My ignorant guess is that upwards of 30% will be spoiled due to cooling problems and shipping distribution delays.

...Big question on top of that: How will they know if it has been spoiled and shouldn't be used?

Second ignorant guess is that we're going to get reports of people who were vaccinated and still got the bug, some hospitalized and it will be traced back to spoiled vaccines.

If the containers they are in don't have temperature triggers in them, someone in medical supply logistics is doing a crappy job. They all have GPS - no reason they oughtn't have temp gauges that either electronically record temps or physically change when thresholds are exceeded.

Anytime any of these vaccine vials gets over its threshold temperature (whether for long storage or for pre-administration refrigeration), that change should be evident to the person opening them. Clearly this isn't the case for some (see the rogue pharmacist who was able to trick his colleagues into administering spoiled vaccine), but that seems like a massive oversight.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: We don't have a plan and we're not going to have a plan...even for vaccine roll out
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: January 02, 2021 01:30PM
Quote
rjmacs
If the containers they are in don't have temperature triggers in them, someone in medical supply logistics is doing a crappy job...

The Pfizer vaccine (as an example) can only remain in a commercial low-temp freezer or dry ice storage for 5-10 days and in the ultra-low temp freezer warehouses for 30 days before it's useless, and exposure to room-temp air for more than a few minutes will ruin it. If they can't move the vaccine efficiently to its destination, it hardly matters whether they're monitoring temps. Wait too long and it's useless.

...And apparently the individual trays of vaccine had no temperature-sensitive indicators on them or else they'd have known better in Wisconsin.



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Re: We don't have a plan and we're not going to have a plan...even for vaccine roll out
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: January 02, 2021 01:46PM
We have no coordinated public health system in the US. We have the CDC but they've been ruined by trumpian politics.


Local and state health depts, who should be able to quickly and safely get shots into arms, have had their budgets gutted, particularly since the financial crisis of 09. And what was left got torched again by the horrible COVID politics of Republicans and their idiot leader.

A staggering number of public health directors have quit during covid.

Add to that a Congress locked in absurd budget battles, unable to get desperately needed public health funding to states. They wasted precious time.

We apparently thought public health was something only poor nations needed to worry about.

I have faith that the Biden administration will reverse much of this damage but it won't be quick.
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Re: We don't have a plan and we're not going to have a plan...even for vaccine roll out
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: January 02, 2021 01:50PM
Quote
Sarcany
Quote
rjmacs
If the containers they are in don't have temperature triggers in them, someone in medical supply logistics is doing a crappy job...

The Pfizer vaccine (as an example) can only remain in a commercial low-temp freezer or dry ice storage for 5-10 days and in the ultra-low temp freezer warehouses for 30 days before it's useless, and exposure to room-temp air for more than a few minutes will ruin it. If they can't move the vaccine efficiently to its destination, it hardly matters whether they're monitoring temps. Wait too long and it's useless.

Would monitoring temps be useless for determining whether the vaccines are spoiled? I see what you're saying in terms of storage times being an unrelated cause of spoilage, but it still seems monitoring would be a good idea.

Quote
Sarcany
...And apparently the individual trays of vaccine had no temperature-sensitive indicators on them or else they'd have known better in Wisconsin.

Yeah - that's why I mentioned it.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2021 01:51PM by rjmacs.
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Re: We don't have a plan and we're not going to have a plan...even for vaccine roll out
Posted by: bfd
Date: January 02, 2021 03:06PM
The myth of a strong United States is finally coming face to face with the reality of its failures. The flag-waving fools need to get a clue about who's really getting waved around …

This pandemic - and the entire response by our so-called government - created a much worse disaster than should have befallen the wealthiest country in the world. Unfortunately, it should be clear that all the wealth in the world - concentrated in a few hands - means nothing.

Fiefdom at its best, we might as well be living in the middle-ages.
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Re: We don't have a plan and we're not going to have a plan...even for vaccine roll out
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: January 02, 2021 03:22PM
Quote
rjmacs
Would monitoring temps be useless for determining whether the vaccines are spoiled?

It's only useful in the circumstance where the vaccine gets spoiled because it gets warm in transit or storage and in such a fashion as to trigger an alert.

People need to track it and pull it from circulation if it ages out and we need a way to test for viability at the endpoints.



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Re: We don't have a plan and we're not going to have a plan...even for vaccine roll out
Posted by: TheCaber
Date: January 02, 2021 03:39PM
Well, the orange gibshite has until Jan 6 to announce his "... beautiful health care plan for all, replacing the inferior ObamaCare ...", "... coming soon! In two weeks! ..."

Clock is ticking, dude, the sick are dying; the unemployed are homeless and starving in the streets. Like Ms. Antoinette (remember her? of course not, you illiterate scumbag), when informed of the populace unable to find bread to eat, "Let them eat cake, then."

Jesus wept. Loser.



=TC
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Re: We don't have a plan and we're not going to have a plan...even for vaccine roll out
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: January 02, 2021 04:57PM
Quote
Sarcany
Quote
rjmacs
Would monitoring temps be useless for determining whether the vaccines are spoiled?

It's only useful in the circumstance where the vaccine gets spoiled because it gets warm in transit or storage and in such a fashion as to trigger an alert.

People need to track it and pull it from circulation if it ages out and we need a way to test for viability at the endpoints.

I thought the GPS tracking would help with this. Because the recorded pings are dated.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: We don't have a plan and we're not going to have a plan...even for vaccine roll out
Posted by: sekker
Date: January 02, 2021 06:56PM
'You had one job...'

What a clusterf$$K. How can Maryland, home of the Johns Hopkins Health System, not be LEADING the country in vaccine roll-out?
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Re: We don't have a plan and we're not going to have a plan...even for vaccine roll out
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: January 02, 2021 07:53PM
Quote
rjmacs
Quote

People need to track it and pull it from circulation if it ages out and we need a way to test for viability at the endpoints.

I thought the GPS tracking would help with this. Because the recorded pings are dated.

They can track where and for how long it's opened to replace the dry ice in-transit. (And can follow it if it's stolen in-transit.) That's not the whole story.

Think about it: The vaccine is first stored where it's manufactured, then moved to a warehouse, then shipping companies pick it up (FedEx), then it's transported to endpoints or local distribution centers, and finally to the people who are doing the vaccinations.

The trackers are in the shipping boxes (cardboard lined with styrofoam). So, they'll know where FedEx screwed up. But even if FedEx doesn't screw up, there's a lot of handling outside of that period. Dry ice needs to be changed every 5 days. Probably, one side of the box is warmer than the other and there's some variability in how rapidly each batch breaks down.

Add to that the incompetence of government logistics and you have a fair likelihood of spoilage.

So, ideally each hospital/pharmacy would have a test for viability to ensure that the product they're distributing is potent.



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Re: We don't have a plan and we're not going to have a plan...even for vaccine roll out
Posted by: davester
Date: January 02, 2021 10:59PM
Quote
kj
"Why are multiple levels of bureaucracy failing?"

Bureaucracy is nearly synonymous with "fail", so multiple levels of fail pretty much = a fail. .

I take exception to that. Bureaucracy is more synonymous with inefficiency, meaning high cost. There are plenty of large bureaucracies that function very well and have accomplished great tasks (often at high cost). NASA for example.

The reason that multiple levels of bureaucracy are failing is that the people at the top are both refusing to lead (i.e. Mr. "I don't take responsibility at all") and have also taken a wrecking ball to all the agencies that they control by firing competent people, cutting budgets, and installing incompetent "yes" men and women.

That said, I am grateful that our California governor (Gavin Newsom) has been on the ball, extremely engaged in COVID response, and has assembled and supported an excellent team here, who have been working very closely with all the counties throughout this epidemic. I feel pretty confident that as long as the vaccines get to California we won't have any of the bonehead errors that have been occurring in other states.



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2021 11:02PM by davester.
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Re: We don't have a plan and we're not going to have a plan...even for vaccine roll out
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: January 03, 2021 12:13PM
....plan 9.....from outerspace.....??



_____________________________________

I reject your reality and substitute my own!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2021 12:13PM by NewtonMP2100.
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Re: We don't have a plan and we're not going to have a plan...even for vaccine roll out
Posted by: Bill in NC
Date: January 03, 2021 03:00PM
states get to do what they want...appears many are playing politics as usual...
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