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Trumps phone call may be criminal
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: January 03, 2021 06:47PM
Trump’s actions during his call to the Georgia Secretary of State could constitute a violation of Section 52 of the U.S. Code concerns voting and elections. The possible election fraud provides for a sentence of up to five years.

Trump’s citing possible criminal charges for Raffensperger unless he produces a different election result in Georgia could be seen as extortion, which section 18, chapter 41 of the U.S. code expressly prohibits.

Trump’s call also raised the question of sedition, which is defined as “conduct or speech inciting people to rebel against the authority of a state or monarch.”

In a tweet, Michael Bromwich, former Department of Justice inspector general and former assistant U.S. attorney suggested one possible defense that Trump could use -- Unless there are portions of the tape that somehow negate criminal intent, "I just want to find 11,780 votes" and his threats against Raffensperger and his counsel violate 52 U.S. Code § 20511. His best defense would be insanity.



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.”
-- François de La Rochefoucauld

Growing older is mandatory. Growing up is optional.
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Re: Trumps phone call may be criminal
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: January 03, 2021 06:59PM
There's also state law...

Section 21-2-603 - Conspiracy to commit election fraud

A person commits the offense of conspiracy to commit election fraud when he or she conspires or agrees with another to commit a violation of this chapter. The crime shall be complete when the conspiracy or agreement is effected and an overt act in furtherance thereof has been committed, regardless of whether the violation of this chapter is consummated. A person convicted of the offense of conspiracy to commit election fraud involving a violation of this chapter which is a felony shall be punished by imprisonment for not less than one year nor more than one-half the maximum period of time for which he or she could have been sentenced if he or she had been convicted of the crime conspired to have been committed, by one-half the maximum fine to which he or she could have been subjected if he or she had been convicted of such crime, or both. A person convicted of the offense of conspiracy to commit election fraud involving a violation of this chapter which is a misdemeanor shall be punished as for a misdemeanor.

Section 21-2-604. Criminal solicitation to commit election fraud; penalties Latest version.

(a) (1) A person commits the offense of criminal solicitation to commit election fraud in the first degree when, with intent that another person engage in conduct constituting a felony under this article, he or she solicits, requests, commands, importunes, or otherwise attempts to cause the other person to engage in such conduct.

(2) A person commits the offense of criminal solicitation to commit election fraud in the second degree when, with intent that another person engage in conduct constituting a misdemeanor under this article, he or she solicits, requests, commands, importunes, or otherwise attempts to cause the other person to engage in such conduct.

(b) (1) A person convicted of the offense of criminal solicitation to commit election fraud in the first degree shall be punished by imprisonment for not less than one nor more than three years.

(2) A person convicted of the offense of criminal solicitation to commit election fraud in the second degree shall be punished as for a misdemeanor.

(c) It is no defense to a prosecution for criminal solicitation to commit election fraud that the person solicited could not be guilty of the crime solicited.

(d) The provisions of subsections (a) through (c) of this Code section are cumulative and shall not supersede any other penal law of this state.
Code 1981, § 21-2-604, enacted by Ga. L. 2011, p. 683, § 21/SB 82.




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Re: Trumps phone call may be criminal
Posted by: PeterB
Date: January 03, 2021 07:04PM
I was wondering about this too, but a lawyer/legal commentator on ABC said that it probably isn't criminal, despite it being obviously immoral. In his words, it goes "right to the line". He didn't specify, but the reason I could guess that it doesn't quite hit the level of criminal behavior is because of the way Dump framed it: that if the Georgia SOS didn't produce a correct, accurate result, that he could face criminal charges. Technically that is true. (The problem is that, for Dump, "correct" = "goes my way".)




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: Trumps phone call may be criminal
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: January 03, 2021 07:09PM
Insanity defense...
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Re: Trumps phone call may be criminal
Posted by: Blankity Blank
Date: January 03, 2021 07:20PM
As rambling and nearly incoherent as Trump’s discourse can be, he has a talent for always assuming someone may try and use his words against him.

Even though performatively he may sound like a six year old trying to stay out of trouble, functionally he gets the job done. He never explicitly asks others to do wrong, he’s very disciplined in maintaining the sham world where all he is doing is fighting against grievous wrongs done by others; though remarkably enough the fight is to his benefit.

Even if his ‘proof’ is tissue thin or even something that he simply believes to be true contrary to all hard evidence, he maintains that he stands on the side of right.

It’s a game he’s bound to lose big one day, but when that day will be, who knows.
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Re: Trumps phone call may be criminal
Posted by: vision63
Date: January 03, 2021 07:24PM
Quote
Blankity Blank
As rambling and nearly incoherent as Trump’s discourse can be, he has a talent for always assuming someone may try and use his words against him.

Even though performatively he may sound like a six year old trying to stay out of trouble, functionally he gets the job done. He never explicitly asks others to do wrong, he’s very disciplined in maintaining the sham world where all he is doing is fighting against grievous wrongs done by others; though remarkably enough the fight is to his benefit.

Even if his ‘proof’ is tissue thin or even something that he simply believes to be true contrary to all hard evidence, he maintains that he stands on the side of right.

It’s a game he’s bound to lose big one day, but when that day will be, who knows.

This is a guy that's shoved crappy real estate deals down people's throats for decades. This is no different than him trying to sell an apartment in one of his buildings. He's a natural POS born from the same.
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Re: Trumps phone call may be criminal
Posted by: $tevie
Date: January 03, 2021 07:36PM
Michael Cohen told us that Trump will always say things in a way designed to deliver a crappy message while retaining the ability to feign innocence. This is a perfect example. Although I think he steps a bit over the line, but I'm no lawyer so don't mind me.



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Re: Trumps phone call may be criminal
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: January 03, 2021 07:39PM
.....he is like teflon.....no matter how 'obvious' the offense......nothing sticks.....he always gets away will everything.....



_____________________________________

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
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Re: Trumps phone call may be criminal
Posted by: samintx
Date: January 03, 2021 07:44PM
And if a state criminal offense the dog can get out of itsmiley-excited001
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Re: Trumps phone call may be criminal
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: January 03, 2021 08:13PM
In this tape he is very explicitly asking the sec of state to find 12k more votes for him and reverse an election result that is already certified. There is nothing subtle about it. It's an abuse of power that should result in both parties calling for his immediate resignation




Not unlike what he got impeached for. Asking another leader to find dirt on his political opponent and threatening to withhold aid if he did not.
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Re: Trumps phone call may be criminal
Posted by: Ted King
Date: January 03, 2021 08:18PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
In this tape he is very explicitly asking the sec of state to find 12k more votes for him and reverse an election result that is already certified. There is nothing subtle about it. It's an abuse of power that should result in both parties calling for his immediate resignation




Not unlike what he got impeached for. Asking another leader to find dirt on his political opponent and threatening to withhold aid if he did not.

Yep. Yep. Ain't going to happen, but it sure as heck should.
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Re: Trumps phone call may be criminal
Posted by: bfd
Date: January 03, 2021 08:45PM
And because nothing happens, this formerly great nation continues to circle the drain.

#Make America Great No More
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Re: Trumps phone call may be criminal
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: January 03, 2021 10:17PM
.....so Trump is now suing Georgia Secretary of State for recording the call........RollingEyesSmiley5



_____________________________________

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
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Re: Trumps phone call may be criminal
Posted by: vision63
Date: January 03, 2021 10:55PM
Quote
bfd
And because nothing happens, this formerly great nation continues to circle the drain.

#Make America Great No More

Well, Trump lost. In 17 days, he will be put out of power and eligible to be arrested.

Statement from Biden Senior Advisor Bob Bauer: "We now have irrefutable proof of a president pressuring and threatening an official of his own party to get him to rescind a state's lawful, certified vote count and fabricate another in its place."

Trump is in a world of hurt. Otherwise he wouldn't be so desperate to try to do something to hang on. We have vaccine's on the way, will have adults in charge of distributing them to the public.
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Re: Trumps phone call may be criminal
Posted by: space-time
Date: January 04, 2021 06:31AM
Quote
NewtonMP2100
.....so Trump is now suing Georgia Secretary of State for recording the call........RollingEyesSmiley5

How are the phone call recording laws in GA? And who recorded and who leaked the call?
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Re: Trumps phone call may be criminal
Posted by: space-time
Date: January 04, 2021 06:33AM
[www.dmlp.org]

one party consent. Same for DC. So technically no one broke the law.
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Re: Trumps phone call may be criminal
Posted by: pdq
Date: January 04, 2021 08:55AM
“May be criminal” is silly. It’s clearly criminal; he is endeavoring to convince the Georgia SoS to commit election fraud.
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Re: Trumps phone call may be criminal
Posted by: PeterB
Date: January 04, 2021 09:09AM
Quote
pdq
“May be criminal” is silly. It’s clearly criminal; he is endeavoring to convince the Georgia SoS to commit election fraud.

But it's not a lie if you believe it; and not fraud if all the accusations are true (not saying they are, only that he believes they are).




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: Trumps phone call may be criminal
Posted by: Blankity Blank
Date: January 04, 2021 09:47AM
Quote
PeterB
Quote
pdq
“May be criminal” is silly. It’s clearly criminal; he is endeavoring to convince the Georgia SoS to commit election fraud.

But it's not a lie if you believe it; and not fraud if all the accusations are true (not saying they are, only that he believes they are).

It now occurs to me to wonder if there is any form of a ‘reasonable person’ precedent in fraud law? Some standard that deals with merely claiming you believed the cotton balls you were selling would turn to gold in 24 hours, and so therefore you weren’t committing fraud.
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Re: Trumps phone call may be criminal
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: January 04, 2021 10:00AM
Trump repeating baseless, disproved conspiracy theories is not the crime. He's going to do that again tonight in his Georgia campaign speech.
It's against Georgia state law to pressure election officials to alter or tamper with results. Meadows explicitly says let's resolve this without courts. Trump threatens the careers of various Republicans if the SOS won't "fix" this as a favor to him.

The crime lies in the ask. And the ask was clearly made. Raffensburger experienced this before with Lindsey Graham, and graham then lied about it. Trump would have lied about this call, in fact he did on Twitter before he knew a recording existed and would be released.
The abuse of power is not in dispute here. The question is what will anybody do about it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2021 10:00AM by Lemon Drop.
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Re: Trumps phone call may be criminal
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: January 04, 2021 10:13AM
Quote
Blankity Blank
It now occurs to me to wonder if there is any form of a ‘reasonable person’ precedent in fraud law? Some standard that deals with merely claiming you believed the cotton balls you were selling would turn to gold in 24 hours, and so therefore you weren’t committing fraud.

[en.wikipedia.org])

In criminal law, intent is a subjective state of mind that must accompany the acts of certain crimes to constitute a violation. A more formal, generally synonymous legal term is scienter: intent or knowledge of wrongdoing.

It's notable that the intent doesn't have to align with the ultimate crime. That is, if you intended to punch someone in the face and in doing so you accidentally knocked him back onto an end-table, broke his neck and killed him, you'd still have committed murder (in this case reckless murder, a lesser charge than willful murder) because your intent was to act to cause harm to the victim.

The key is that the ultimate harm must be forseeable from the action taken. If there's any chance that you could kill someone by hitting him then you're guilty of the crime, even if odds favored him coming away with just a black eye.

So, if you truly believed that your cotton balls would turn to gold in 24 hours and you were giving someone a great deal on those cotton balls then you wouldn't be committing fraud. Your intent was not to harm the other party.

...Unless yours was a strict liability crime. Fraud is generally not a strict liability crime.



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Re: Trumps phone call may be criminal
Posted by: pdq
Date: January 04, 2021 10:20AM
Legalities aside, I think the cotton-ball defense wouldn’t likely be successful in a court of law.
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Re: Trumps phone call may be criminal
Posted by: PeterB
Date: January 04, 2021 10:37AM
Quote
pdq
Legalities aside, I think the cotton-ball defense wouldn’t likely be successful in a court of law.

True, but if I sell you a deed to the Brooklyn Bridge because I'm delusional/psychotic and honestly and truly believe that I own it and therefore have the right to sell it, apparently that's not fraud. Of course, you're also right about the defense not likely to be successful, but it'd also be likely I'd pull an insanity defense (or at least my lawyer would!).

LD, yes, the ask was made -- but one could argue that he was pressuring him to alter the results to the CORRECT, accurate version of the results. Again, I'm not saying that I myself believe this, only what Dump and his side will say... no, I don't buy this argument either. grinning smiley




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: Trumps phone call may be criminal
Posted by: Blankity Blank
Date: January 04, 2021 12:08PM
So the more convincing the delusional front you present is, the more you insulate yourself against charges of fraud?

Sounds familiar. big grin smiley
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Re: Trumps phone call may be criminal
Posted by: Buzz
Date: January 04, 2021 02:16PM
Now all we need is another recording from Bob Woodward.
That’ll clearly illustrate the fraud, just like the early Covid calls did.
==
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Re: Trumps phone call may be criminal
Posted by: sekker
Date: January 04, 2021 02:20PM
Quote
NewtonMP2100
.....so Trump is now suing Georgia Secretary of State for recording the call........RollingEyesSmiley5

Somehow, I think this will go down as yet another failed lawsuit.

[en.as.com]
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Re: Trumps phone call may be criminal
Posted by: Lux Interior
Date: January 04, 2021 02:44PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
The question is what will anybody do about it.

Nothing.

But Susan Collins will be very concerned!

Well, maybe not that concerned, now that she was re-elected.
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Re: Trumps phone call may be criminal
Posted by: pdq
Date: January 04, 2021 03:37PM
Quote
Blankity Blank
So the more convincing the delusional front you present is, the more you insulate yourself against charges of fraud?

Sounds familiar. big grin smiley

Will Kayleigh have to explain that he was just joking/being sarcastic?
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Re: Trumps phone call may be criminal
Posted by: RgrF
Date: January 04, 2021 06:31PM
Never admit mistakes, never say sorry or apologize - the GOP mantra.
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Re: Trumps phone call may be criminal
Posted by: hal
Date: January 04, 2021 06:35PM
Quote
RgrF
Never admit mistakes, never say sorry or apologize - the GOP mantra.

unless it is to apologize for not backing Trump more strongly.
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