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About those pardons
Posted by: AllGold
Date: January 19, 2021 12:14AM
Lawrence O'Donnell mentions that Trump can issue secret pardons. There is no requirement for all of his pardons to be publicized or announced and no one would know about secret pardons until the pardonee is charged with a federal crime.

[thehill.com]



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Re: About those pardons
Posted by: Speedy
Date: January 19, 2021 12:23AM
Imagine the money to be made!



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: About those pardons
Posted by: davester
Date: January 19, 2021 12:41AM
This whole pardon clause is a ridiculous, non-thought-through concept. It gives a single man in some respects the power of an absolute dictator or monarch. what possible purpose could such a wide open privilege have?



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan
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Re: About those pardons
Posted by: GGD
Date: January 19, 2021 12:42AM
I assume this would only apply to pre-emptive pardons. For those that have already been convicted or are in prison, it would need to be disclosed for it to be of any benefit.

Quote

There is nothing in Article II, Section II, preventing President Trump from signing a document granting a pardon, and then putting the paper in a safe at any of his golf resorts. He is not even required to notify the recipient.

This makes it sound like there might not even be proof that he was still president at the time he signed them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/19/2021 12:46AM by GGD.
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Re: About those pardons
Posted by: Lizabeth
Date: January 19, 2021 06:13AM
I think that the pardon thing needs to be revisited - MMC has shown how it is abused 100%.

I don't know what sort of checks and balances can be put into the presidential pardon system but it needs some oversight.
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Re: About those pardons
Posted by: Lux Interior
Date: January 19, 2021 06:59AM
Quote
davester
This whole pardon clause is a ridiculous, non-thought-through concept. It gives a single man in some respects the power of an absolute dictator or monarch. what possible purpose could such a wide open privilege have?

The Founding Fathers had a bit too much confidence in the character of the POTUS when they granted that power.
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Re: About those pardons
Posted by: sekker
Date: January 19, 2021 08:20AM
Was always meant to be a check on the judiciary and legislative branches, and to allow some empathy in life.

Was not designed around a purely transactional President.

Time for some transparency and oversight. I don’t see how adding rules like pardons need to be publicly disclosed would need a constitutional amendment. That’s not limiting, however.
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Re: About those pardons
Posted by: Mr Downtown
Date: January 19, 2021 09:16AM
Quote
sekker
I don’t see how adding rules like pardons need to be publicly disclosed would need a constitutional amendment.

Because such a limitation is not in the Constitution. Nor is a qualifier such as "subject to regulations Congress may adopt."
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Re: About those pardons
Posted by: sekker
Date: January 19, 2021 09:35AM
Quote
Mr Downtown
Quote
sekker
I don’t see how adding rules like pardons need to be publicly disclosed would need a constitutional amendment.

Because such a limitation is not in the Constitution. Nor is a qualifier such as "subject to regulations Congress may adopt."

There are ways to word-smith this. Just because it's not in the Constitution does not make the power reserved to the Executive branch.
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Re: About those pardons
Posted by: Pam
Date: January 19, 2021 09:56AM
According to Chuck Rosenberg pardons do not even need to be written down.
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Re: About those pardons
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: January 19, 2021 09:57AM
Quote
Pam
According to Chuck Rosenberg pardons do not even need to be written down.

However, verbal pardons are rumored to be worth the paper they're written on.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: About those pardons
Posted by: mattkime
Date: January 19, 2021 10:01AM
Quote
Pam
According to Chuck Rosenberg pardons do not even need to be written down.

Do they need to be expressed at all??



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Re: About those pardons
Posted by: Acer
Date: January 19, 2021 10:12AM
If they are not written, then a former President can just say years later "Yeah, I pardoned so-and-so back when I was president. I just didn't tell anyone." Naturally, none of our current former presidents would even think of doing that.
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Re: About those pardons
Posted by: Speedy
Date: January 19, 2021 10:26AM
Quote
mattkime
Quote
Pam
According to Chuck Rosenberg pardons do not even need to be written down.

Do they need to be expressed at all??

thumbs up



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: About those pardons
Posted by: sekker
Date: January 19, 2021 12:04PM
Quote
Acer
If they are not written, then a former President can just say years later "Yeah, I pardoned so-and-so back when I was president. I just didn't tell anyone."

I'd like to see this go to courts. Could be the perfect mechanism to define what are the actual limits to the Presidential pardon.
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Re: About those pardons
Posted by: Pam
Date: January 19, 2021 12:10PM
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
Pam
According to Chuck Rosenberg pardons do not even need to be written down.

However, verbal pardons are rumored to be worth the paper they're written on.

The Constitution does not require pardons to be in writing. If an ex president confirms the pardon, I doubt the courts will like it but doubt the Supreme Court will strike it down.

This is why we are supposed to elect people of good morals and ethics.
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Re: About those pardons
Posted by: vision63
Date: January 19, 2021 12:35PM
Quote
mattkime
Quote
Pam
According to Chuck Rosenberg pardons do not even need to be written down.

Do they need to be expressed at all??

No court is going to erase a crime or commute a sentence without an order to do so.
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Re: About those pardons
Posted by: sekker
Date: January 19, 2021 01:30PM
Quote
vision63
Quote
mattkime
Quote
Pam
According to Chuck Rosenberg pardons do not even need to be written down.

Do they need to be expressed at all??

No court is going to erase a crime or commute a sentence without an order to do so.

This is key. Would ANY court trust the word of the Liar in Chief?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/19/2021 01:30PM by sekker.
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Re: About those pardons
Posted by: Ammo
Date: January 19, 2021 02:27PM
Can anybody see any reasons why Trump wouldn’t pardon everyone he can think of, including the insurrectionists? I think the secret pardon option only increases the odds he will.

McConnells negative comments about Trump today sound like a guy positioning himself for extreme blowback against the Republican Party without committing himself to actually doing anything about it. Same old same old. Why else would he say Trump committed impeachable offenses but doesn’t know if he will vote for conviction? I had hoped McConnell might have some kind of leverage against Trump to keep him in line. On the other hand, maybe McConnell is playing mind games with the president.

One can only hope that there might be some legal exigencies or threats that could prevent Trump to limit his pardons.

I hope this doesn’t happen. It breaks my heart to say these things.



Where is there dignity unless there is also honesty? - Cicero

Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a battle you know nothing about. —Wendy Mass
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Re: About those pardons
Posted by: numbered
Date: January 19, 2021 03:45PM
This CNN piece is the best summary of what went down at the White House about pardons...

TL;DR: pardons would increase Trump's vulnerability.
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Re: About those pardons
Posted by: GGD
Date: January 19, 2021 04:42PM
Quote
numbered
This CNN piece is the best summary of what went down at the White House about pardons...

TL;DR: pardons would increase Trump's vulnerability.

Great place to work.

Quote

Over the past weeks, Trump has discussed pardons incessantly with associates, often asking if people who had not been accused of any crime wanted one before he left office. The discussions unnerved some aides, who did not believe they were in line for prosecution.
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Re: About those pardons
Posted by: Mr Downtown
Date: January 19, 2021 05:51PM
Quote
sekker
There are ways to word-smith this. Just because it's not in the Constitution does not make the power reserved to the Executive branch.

Lay out that argument for me, please. I don't see what other provision of the Constitution limits the pardon power of the president—and my Con Law professor was Charles Alan Wright, the guy who made Nixon's Executive Privilege arguments for him. See United States v. Klein, 80 U.S. (13 Wall.) 128 (1872).

[constitution.congress.gov]
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Re: About those pardons
Posted by: space-time
Date: January 19, 2021 06:07PM
did he issue any pardons today? I scanned the headlines a few times but I didn't see anything obvious.
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Re: About those pardons
Posted by: vision63
Date: January 19, 2021 10:00PM
Quote
Ammo
Can anybody see any reasons why Trump wouldn’t pardon everyone he can think of, including the insurrectionists? I think the secret pardon option only increases the odds he will.

McConnells negative comments about Trump today sound like a guy positioning himself for extreme blowback against the Republican Party without committing himself to actually doing anything about it. Same old same old. Why else would he say Trump committed impeachable offenses but doesn’t know if he will vote for conviction? I had hoped McConnell might have some kind of leverage against Trump to keep him in line. On the other hand, maybe McConnell is playing mind games with the president.

One can only hope that there might be some legal exigencies or threats that could prevent Trump to limit his pardons.

I hope this doesn’t happen. It breaks my heart to say these things.

McConnell wants to pave the way for him to become Senate Majority Leader in 2022. The rest of the craven white guys (and little Marco) would like to run for president in 2024 and not have to do it against Trump. That makes it a LOT easier for them. So, conviction could be on the horizon.

Now if I'm caught up in some wild ranging scheme that involves multiple investigations, a pardon can possibly jack me up. Trump would have to identify what I'm being pardoned for and my enemies have that "admission" of guilt to get me on all kinds of other things.

So really, all he can do is spring people from the slammer or pardon them after they're out.
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Re: About those pardons
Posted by: RgrF
Date: January 19, 2021 11:01PM
Quote
space-time
did he issue any pardons today? I scanned the headlines a few times but I didn't see anything obvious.

Looks like he's saving it for an Inauguration morning attempt to diminish Biden's day.
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Re: About those pardons
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: January 21, 2021 05:21PM
Quote
Pam
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
Pam
According to Chuck Rosenberg pardons do not even need to be written down.

However, verbal pardons are rumored to be worth the paper they're written on.

The Constitution does not require pardons to be in writing. If an ex president confirms the pardon, I doubt the courts will like it but doubt the Supreme Court will strike it down.

This is why we are supposed to elect people of good morals and ethics.

Expressed without evidence? Is this just a hunch? I think our legal system may be a little more persnickety than you think.....



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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