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Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: RgrF
Date: February 26, 2021 01:48AM
Hide from ($15/hr) wage vote behind parliamentarian joke. VP Harris could change that but won't. Is this how Mitch McConnell (SCOTUS nominee confirmed in record time) would have acted?

And they wonder why the party has trouble attracting independent voters, maybe because they lie and backstab their own in a grasp for power?
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: graylocks
Date: February 26, 2021 02:03AM
This is not the only bill that is ever going to pass.



"Success isn't about how much money you make. It is about the difference you make in people's lives."--Michelle Obama
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: mattkime
Date: February 26, 2021 07:28AM
Eh, $15 min wage was always going to be an uphill struggle. Don't get too fixated on any one thing. And don't forget what it would be like with the insurrectionists in the white house.



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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: Blankity Blank
Date: February 26, 2021 08:00AM
This one was a tough ‘get’. It was already being said getting the $15 minimum wage in under reconciliation probably wasn’t going to happen.

With the two ‘blue dog’ Democrat senators, Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema, already coming out against it, having VP Harris wave off the Republican Senate Parliamentarian’s (Elizabeth MacDonough) ‘advisement’ and brute force the minimum wage provision in, likely would have ended up with the entire stimulus bill lacking the votes to pass.

This isn’t the last time the Democrat’s razor thin ‘control’ of the Senate is going to sting. But hopefully, stimulus battle won, minimum wage war goes on.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2021 08:02AM by Blankity Blank.
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: deckeda
Date: February 26, 2021 08:02AM
You’re right. The alternative is better. I now regret my vote. This one thing did it for me, and Democrats are clearly liars and cheats, rendering whatever they do from here on out irrelevant. They obviously caused the parliamentarian to step in because that’s just the sort of thing they do.
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: Acer
Date: February 26, 2021 08:40AM
Seems like these "rules" that the Senate generates out of whole cloth for itself are never-ending. The Senate is perfectly designed to make sure the majority gets its will as little as possible. All because the slave states just couldn't possibly get anything done without whipping people.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2021 08:41AM by Acer.
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: C(-)ris
Date: February 26, 2021 08:46AM
It is called balance of power. It is designed PRECISELY so that a very small majority cannot railroad through changes. You do realize that at least 45% of the country doesn't agree with a $15 minimum wage?



C(-)ris
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Throwback Thursday Signature:
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: Acer
Date: February 26, 2021 09:05AM
Quote
C(-)ris
It is called balance of power. It is designed PRECISELY so that a very small majority cannot railroad through changes. You do realize that at least 45% of the country doesn't agree with a $15 minimum wage?

"Regardless of the ruling, the idea of raising the minimum wage to $15 by 2025 from its current $7.25 is broadly popular, a Reuters/Ipsos poll found. Some 59% of respondents said they supported the idea, with 34% opposing it." [www.msn.com] (Dataline: 2/25/2021)
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: February 26, 2021 09:21AM
Quote
RgrF
Hide from ($15/hr) wage vote behind parliamentarian joke. VP Harris could change that but won't. Is this how Mitch McConnell (SCOTUS nominee confirmed in record time) would have acted?

And they wonder why the party has trouble attracting independent voters, maybe because they lie and backstab their own in a grasp for power?

Wtf?

Anyway, the House is keeping the minimum wage increase in the bill, and I expect President Biden will sign it. And VP Harris knew all this.
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: February 26, 2021 09:24AM
Quote
C(-)ris
It is called balance of power. It is designed PRECISELY so that a very small majority cannot railroad through changes. You do realize that at least 45% of the country doesn't agree with a $15 minimum wage?

Sorry dude, the minority is losing on this one.
The House is keeping the increase in the bill.
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: Blankity Blank
Date: February 26, 2021 09:29AM
Quote
Acer
Seems like these "rules" that the Senate generates out of whole cloth for itself are never-ending. The Senate is perfectly designed to make sure the majority gets its will as little as possible. All because the slave states just couldn't possibly get anything done without whipping people.

Reconciliation has been around for a bit more than forty years and used to pass over twenty bills. The Byrd Rule, which was used in deciding to ‘advise’ the striking of the wage provision, is over 35 years old.
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: Blankity Blank
Date: February 26, 2021 09:33AM
Quote
Lemon Drop
Quote
RgrF
Hide from ($15/hr) wage vote behind parliamentarian joke. VP Harris could change that but won't. Is this how Mitch McConnell (SCOTUS nominee confirmed in record time) would have acted?

And they wonder why the party has trouble attracting independent voters, maybe because they lie and backstab their own in a grasp for power?

Wtf?

Anyway, the House is keeping the minimum wage increase in the bill, and I expect President Biden will sign it. And VP Harris knew all this.

But unless it’s in a version passed by both the House and the Senate there’s nothing for Biden to sign, no?

Politico
”Democrats' $15 minimum wage increase isn’t going to survive the Senate. And they don’t have a Plan B yet.

The Senate parliamentarian’s decision to rule the wage hike out of order ahead of debate on President Joe Biden’s coronavirus relief plan saves Democrats from an internal fight over whether to increase it to $15 an hour. But it also leaves Democrats without a clear path forward on fulfilling a key campaign promise.”




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2021 09:41AM by Blankity Blank.
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: February 26, 2021 10:16AM
Quote
Blankity Blank
Quote
Lemon Drop
Quote
RgrF
Hide from ($15/hr) wage vote behind parliamentarian joke. VP Harris could change that but won't. Is this how Mitch McConnell (SCOTUS nominee confirmed in record time) would have acted?

And they wonder why the party has trouble attracting independent voters, maybe because they lie and backstab their own in a grasp for power?

Wtf?

Anyway, the House is keeping the minimum wage increase in the bill, and I expect President Biden will sign it. And VP Harris knew all this.

But unless it’s in a version passed by both the House and the Senate there’s nothing for Biden to sign, no?

Politico
”Democrats' $15 minimum wage increase isn’t going to survive the Senate. And they don’t have a Plan B yet.

The Senate parliamentarian’s decision to rule the wage hike out of order ahead of debate on President Joe Biden’s coronavirus relief plan saves Democrats from an internal fight over whether to increase it to $15 an hour. But it also leaves Democrats without a clear path forward on fulfilling a key campaign promise.”

That's from last night. I'm reading in the Times now that the House will pass the bill with the wage increase included today, and it is still possible for this to become law.
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: Ted King
Date: February 26, 2021 10:32AM
Quote
Lemon Drop

That's from last night. I'm reading in the Times now that the House will pass the bill with the wage increase included today, and it is still possible for this to become law.

It's possible but extremely unlikely. I think it's primarily a statement by the House Democrats that they strongly back a $15 minimum wage even if they know that it's not going to pass the Senate as part of the reconciliation process. I just hope that it doesn't lead to dragging out the process of passing the rest of the Covid bill because the House passing it with the $15 minimum wage and the Senate passing it without that seems like it would have to lead to taking the time to go through a conference committee between the House and the Senate. I don't like the prospects of any delay in the rest of the package even though I appreciate the sentiment of the House Democrats that voted for it.



e pluribus unum
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: Blankity Blank
Date: February 26, 2021 10:36AM
Quote
Lemon Drop
Quote
Blankity Blank
Quote
Lemon Drop
Quote
RgrF
Hide from ($15/hr) wage vote behind parliamentarian joke. VP Harris could change that but won't. Is this how Mitch McConnell (SCOTUS nominee confirmed in record time) would have acted?

And they wonder why the party has trouble attracting independent voters, maybe because they lie and backstab their own in a grasp for power?

Wtf?

Anyway, the House is keeping the minimum wage increase in the bill, and I expect President Biden will sign it. And VP Harris knew all this.

But unless it’s in a version passed by both the House and the Senate there’s nothing for Biden to sign, no?

Politico
”Democrats' $15 minimum wage increase isn’t going to survive the Senate. And they don’t have a Plan B yet.

The Senate parliamentarian’s decision to rule the wage hike out of order ahead of debate on President Joe Biden’s coronavirus relief plan saves Democrats from an internal fight over whether to increase it to $15 an hour. But it also leaves Democrats without a clear path forward on fulfilling a key campaign promise.”

That's from last night. I'm reading in the Times now that the House will pass the bill with the wage increase included today, and it is still possible for this to become law.

Headed over to the Times now, but from what I’ve read so far today, the only way to salvage it would be for VP Harris to set aside the advisement, which it’s almost a certainty she won’t do.

And even if she did, the bill would probably still be scuttled by blue dog Democrat senators voting with the Republicans. Fantastic news if there’s some other way it could play out.
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: numbered
Date: February 26, 2021 11:05AM
Quote
Ted King
I think it's primarily a statement by the House Democrats that they strongly back a $15 minimum wage even if they know that it's not going to pass the Senate

Miss Nancy is signaling. Jayapal is signaling. Bernie is signaling.

The problem is that Manchin and Sinema both said they would not overrule the parliamentarian. If Harris had overruled the decision, it would have come to a vote and it would have lost 52-48. No matter how many times Jayapal threatened. [I admit I had to leave the room last nite because Jayapal--who I think is terrific--was going on and on about this on MSNBC without confronting the reality of Manchin.]

This is the pain of having no margin. And remember that vilifying Manchin may not work out since McConnell is sitting with open arms.
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: vision63
Date: February 26, 2021 11:35AM
Voters aren't really having a problem. Though lots of them should review the times that they didn't vote. @#$%& that "don't vote," have the problem.
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: sekker
Date: February 26, 2021 12:09PM
And this is why the GOP continues to hold power. They keep their fights private and have a unified front.

President - and former Senator Biden - expressed weeks ago concerns that the minimum wage might not make it through this test.

Stop whining, take the major win that can be completed here, bring the fight on minimum wage to the table. Something that has 59% of the country backing it can be moved along.
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: February 26, 2021 12:12PM
Quote
Blankity Blank
Quote
Lemon Drop
Quote
Blankity Blank
Quote
Lemon Drop
Quote
RgrF
Hide from ($15/hr) wage vote behind parliamentarian joke. VP Harris could change that but won't. Is this how Mitch McConnell (SCOTUS nominee confirmed in record time) would have acted?

And they wonder why the party has trouble attracting independent voters, maybe because they lie and backstab their own in a grasp for power?

Wtf?

Anyway, the House is keeping the minimum wage increase in the bill, and I expect President Biden will sign it. And VP Harris knew all this.

But unless it’s in a version passed by both the House and the Senate there’s nothing for Biden to sign, no?

Politico
”Democrats' $15 minimum wage increase isn’t going to survive the Senate. And they don’t have a Plan B yet.

The Senate parliamentarian’s decision to rule the wage hike out of order ahead of debate on President Joe Biden’s coronavirus relief plan saves Democrats from an internal fight over whether to increase it to $15 an hour. But it also leaves Democrats without a clear path forward on fulfilling a key campaign promise.”

That's from last night. I'm reading in the Times now that the House will pass the bill with the wage increase included today, and it is still possible for this to become law.

Headed over to the Times now, but from what I’ve read so far today, the only way to salvage it would be for VP Harris to set aside the advisement, which it’s almost a certainty she won’t do.

And even if she did, the bill would probably still be scuttled by blue dog Democrat senators voting with the Republicans. Fantastic news if there’s some other way it could play out.

False. All the Democrats have to do is vote to overrule the parliamentarian's ruling on the floor. The GOP had no trouble doing this whenever the parliamentarian got in their way under McConnell. Chuckie Shumes, on the other hand, probably doesn't have the spine to get it done.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: Ted King
Date: February 26, 2021 12:37PM
Quote
rjmacs

False. All the Democrats have to do is vote to overrule the parliamentarian's ruling on the floor. The GOP had no trouble doing this whenever the parliamentarian got in their way under McConnell. Chuckie Shumes, on the other hand, probably doesn't have the spine to get it done.

Have you seen anything that indicates Manchin would vote to overrule the parliamentarian? If not, would Schumer have the votes to overrule her?



e pluribus unum
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: February 26, 2021 12:41PM
Quote
Ted King
Quote
rjmacs

False. All the Democrats have to do is vote to overrule the parliamentarian's ruling on the floor. The GOP had no trouble doing this whenever the parliamentarian got in their way under McConnell. Chuckie Shumes, on the other hand, probably doesn't have the spine to get it done.

Have you seen anything that indicates Manchin would vote to overrule the parliamentarian? If not, would Schumer have the votes to overrule her?

Nope, all I have is evidence that Chuckie Shumes is a far less effective majority leader than Mitch McConnell.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: vision63
Date: February 26, 2021 12:41PM
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
Blankity Blank
Quote
Lemon Drop
Quote
Blankity Blank
Quote
Lemon Drop
Quote
RgrF
Hide from ($15/hr) wage vote behind parliamentarian joke. VP Harris could change that but won't. Is this how Mitch McConnell (SCOTUS nominee confirmed in record time) would have acted?

And they wonder why the party has trouble attracting independent voters, maybe because they lie and backstab their own in a grasp for power?

Wtf?

Anyway, the House is keeping the minimum wage increase in the bill, and I expect President Biden will sign it. And VP Harris knew all this.

But unless it’s in a version passed by both the House and the Senate there’s nothing for Biden to sign, no?

Politico
”Democrats' $15 minimum wage increase isn’t going to survive the Senate. And they don’t have a Plan B yet.

The Senate parliamentarian’s decision to rule the wage hike out of order ahead of debate on President Joe Biden’s coronavirus relief plan saves Democrats from an internal fight over whether to increase it to $15 an hour. But it also leaves Democrats without a clear path forward on fulfilling a key campaign promise.”

That's from last night. I'm reading in the Times now that the House will pass the bill with the wage increase included today, and it is still possible for this to become law.

Headed over to the Times now, but from what I’ve read so far today, the only way to salvage it would be for VP Harris to set aside the advisement, which it’s almost a certainty she won’t do.

And even if she did, the bill would probably still be scuttled by blue dog Democrat senators voting with the Republicans. Fantastic news if there’s some other way it could play out.

False. All the Democrats have to do is vote to overrule the parliamentarian's ruling on the floor. The GOP had no trouble doing this whenever the parliamentarian got in their way under McConnell. Chuckie Shumes, on the other hand, probably doesn't have the spine to get it done.

What you're saying is, Schumer wants to do it, but because of his lack of a spine, he won't do it. It's as simple as that. That means he fears something. What would that be? What is so terrifying to Chuck that he would rather cower in fear? What's the rationale?
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: February 26, 2021 12:43PM
I guess he's just not very good at keeping his caucus in order and voting in line. I observe what's happening, and QED, baby.

Edit: or perhaps Chuckie's master plan is to wait on the minimum wage fight and hope to get 11 GOP votes in favor to get it done. smiley-laughing001 What a tactician!!!



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2021 12:44PM by rjmacs.
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: vision63
Date: February 26, 2021 12:53PM
Quote
rjmacs
I guess he's just not very good at keeping his caucus in order and voting in line. I observe what's happening, and QED, baby.

Edit: or perhaps Chuckie's master plan is to wait on the minimum wage fight and hope to get 11 GOP votes in favor to get it done. smiley-laughing001 What a tactician!!!

He's actually outstanding at it. No (Democratic) Senate leader in history has had as good a control of his caucus as Schumer. This is easy to look up.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2021 12:54PM by vision63.
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: February 26, 2021 12:56PM
Quote
vision63
Quote
rjmacs
I guess he's just not very good at keeping his caucus in order and voting in line. I observe what's happening, and QED, baby.

Edit: or perhaps Chuckie's master plan is to wait on the minimum wage fight and hope to get 11 GOP votes in favor to get it done. smiley-laughing001 What a tactician!!!

He's actually outstanding at it. No (Democratic) Senate leader in history has had as good a control of his caucus as Schumer. This is easy to look up.

Your parenthetical modifier says it all.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: vision63
Date: February 26, 2021 01:01PM
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
vision63
Quote
rjmacs
I guess he's just not very good at keeping his caucus in order and voting in line. I observe what's happening, and QED, baby.

Edit: or perhaps Chuckie's master plan is to wait on the minimum wage fight and hope to get 11 GOP votes in favor to get it done. smiley-laughing001 What a tactician!!!

He's actually outstanding at it. No (Democratic) Senate leader in history has had as good a control of his caucus as Schumer. This is easy to look up.

Your parenthetical modifier says it all.

In other words. You don't know why. You just wanted to say what you said.
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: Blankity Blank
Date: February 26, 2021 01:02PM
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
Blankity Blank
Headed over to the Times now, but from what I’ve read so far today, the only way to salvage it would be for VP Harris to set aside the advisement, which it’s almost a certainty she won’t do.

And even if she did, the bill would probably still be scuttled by blue dog Democrat senators voting with the Republicans. Fantastic news if there’s some other way it could play out.

False. All the Democrats have to do is vote to overrule the parliamentarian's ruling on the floor. The GOP had no trouble doing this whenever the parliamentarian got in their way under McConnell. Chuckie Shumes, on the other hand, probably doesn't have the spine to get it done.

I’ve searched like crazy, but I’m not finding a single source that says Senate Democrats can overrule the advisement, only the VP Harris can. Apparently they can vote to replace the parliamentarian, but Politico’s assessment is that those opposing that option constitute “everyone to the right of the Squad.”

Pointer to information on the senate overruling the parliamentarian?
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: February 26, 2021 01:04PM
Quote
vision63
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
vision63
Quote
rjmacs
I guess he's just not very good at keeping his caucus in order and voting in line. I observe what's happening, and QED, baby.

Edit: or perhaps Chuckie's master plan is to wait on the minimum wage fight and hope to get 11 GOP votes in favor to get it done. smiley-laughing001 What a tactician!!!

He's actually outstanding at it. No (Democratic) Senate leader in history has had as good a control of his caucus as Schumer. This is easy to look up.

Your parenthetical modifier says it all.

In other words. You don't know why. You just wanted to say what you said.

Ha ha. You're right - I don't know why Chuckie is giving up this battle, or why he can't wrangle Manchin (and possibly Sinema) to get the votes the party needs to pass the president's bill.

What's your theory?



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: vision63
Date: February 26, 2021 01:15PM
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
vision63
Quote
rjmacs
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vision63
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rjmacs
I guess he's just not very good at keeping his caucus in order and voting in line. I observe what's happening, and QED, baby.

Edit: or perhaps Chuckie's master plan is to wait on the minimum wage fight and hope to get 11 GOP votes in favor to get it done. smiley-laughing001 What a tactician!!!

He's actually outstanding at it. No (Democratic) Senate leader in history has had as good a control of his caucus as Schumer. This is easy to look up.

Your parenthetical modifier says it all.

In other words. You don't know why. You just wanted to say what you said.

Ha ha. You're right - I don't know why Chuckie is giving up this battle, or why he can't wrangle Manchin (and possibly Sinema) to get the votes the party needs to pass the president's bill.

What's your theory?

It's out of Chuckie's hands. If he could do it, he would have done it. If he did, he'd split his caucus wide open. It's got to be done another way.
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: February 26, 2021 01:21PM
Quote
vision63
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
vision63
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
vision63
Quote
rjmacs
I guess he's just not very good at keeping his caucus in order and voting in line. I observe what's happening, and QED, baby.

Edit: or perhaps Chuckie's master plan is to wait on the minimum wage fight and hope to get 11 GOP votes in favor to get it done. smiley-laughing001 What a tactician!!!

He's actually outstanding at it. No (Democratic) Senate leader in history has had as good a control of his caucus as Schumer. This is easy to look up.

Your parenthetical modifier says it all.

In other words. You don't know why. You just wanted to say what you said.

Ha ha. You're right - I don't know why Chuckie is giving up this battle, or why he can't wrangle Manchin (and possibly Sinema) to get the votes the party needs to pass the president's bill.

What's your theory?

It's out of Chuckie's hands. If he could do it, he would have done it. If he did, he'd split his caucus wide open. It's got to be done another way.

So, we agree, but you just won't ever criticize a Democrat. I do admire your fidelity.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: vision63
Date: February 26, 2021 01:25PM
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
vision63
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
vision63
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
vision63
Quote
rjmacs
I guess he's just not very good at keeping his caucus in order and voting in line. I observe what's happening, and QED, baby.

Edit: or perhaps Chuckie's master plan is to wait on the minimum wage fight and hope to get 11 GOP votes in favor to get it done. smiley-laughing001 What a tactician!!!

He's actually outstanding at it. No (Democratic) Senate leader in history has had as good a control of his caucus as Schumer. This is easy to look up.

Your parenthetical modifier says it all.

In other words. You don't know why. You just wanted to say what you said.

Ha ha. You're right - I don't know why Chuckie is giving up this battle, or why he can't wrangle Manchin (and possibly Sinema) to get the votes the party needs to pass the president's bill.

What's your theory?

It's out of Chuckie's hands. If he could do it, he would have done it. If he did, he'd split his caucus wide open. It's got to be done another way.

So, we agree, but you just won't ever criticize a Democrat. I do admire your fidelity.

I never said I liked it nor am I defending him. I just see the reality. Soberly from an observant perspective. There's how you "feel" and then there's how it is.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2021 01:26PM by vision63.
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: February 26, 2021 01:30PM
Fair enough. Will he cave on Neera Tanden, too? I'm not saying that he's capable of keeping his members in line, and not doing it. I'm just disappointed that when push comes to shove, he doesn't seem to be able to do the political maneuvering and promise-making that actually gets things done. Maybe it's just harder to be a Democrat.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: vision63
Date: February 26, 2021 01:37PM
Quote
rjmacs
Fair enough. Will he cave on Neera Tanden, too? I'm not saying that he's capable of keeping his members in line, and not doing it. I'm just disappointed that when push comes to shove, he doesn't seem to be able to do the political maneuvering and promise-making that actually gets things done. Maybe it's just harder to be a Democrat.

You couldn't be more wrong. I wasn't lying about his record of handling his caucus. He shined as a Minority leader. I do not know why people blame so much on him.

We know for a fact.... that the Democratic Party has to accomodate a big tent. If you flip a state or a district for example, it didn't stop being conservative. You have to have a way to protect them while still harnessing key votes from them. That takes skill.

You know, Bernie may not vote for Tanden like he didn't Tom Vilsack. He hates her. Manchin hates her because of Tanden calling out his CEO daughter's corruption. How does Schumer control that?
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: February 26, 2021 01:47PM
Quote
vision63
Quote
rjmacs
Fair enough. Will he cave on Neera Tanden, too? I'm not saying that he's capable of keeping his members in line, and not doing it. I'm just disappointed that when push comes to shove, he doesn't seem to be able to do the political maneuvering and promise-making that actually gets things done. Maybe it's just harder to be a Democrat.

You couldn't be more wrong. I wasn't lying about his record of handling his caucus. He shined as a Minority leader. I do not know why people blame so much on him.

We know for a fact.... that the Democratic Party has to accomodate a big tent. If you flip a state or a district for example, it didn't stop being conservative. You have to have a way to protect them while still harnessing key votes from them. That takes skill.

You know, Bernie may not vote for Tanden like he didn't Tom Vilsack. He hates her. Manchin hates her because of Tanden calling out his CEO daughter's corruption. How does Schumer control that?

Politics isn't about changing people's emotions. It's about convincing them to do what you want.

McConnell has wrangled a caucus at least as politically diverse as Schumer, and he hardly ever lost votes. He is simply better at finding ways to convince his colleagues to do what they don't like to do. Whether that's through wheedling, bribery, or intimidation - I couldn't tell you. I'm not an insider. But the results show through. I suppose you can argue that Mitch's job was easier, but the outcomes have been clear.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: pdq
Date: February 26, 2021 02:39PM
Meh. McConnell couldn't wheedle, intimidate, bribe, or otherwise convince McCain to vote to dump Obamacare, and we're lucky he didn't.

Frankly, you're sounding like the Republicans when they blocked everything they could under Obama. He should be better at convincing us they would say with a wink.

Politics is the art of the possible.
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: February 26, 2021 02:56PM
Quote
pdq
Meh. McConnell couldn't wheedle, intimidate, bribe, or otherwise convince McCain to vote to dump Obamacare, and we're lucky he didn't.

No disrespect to Senator McCain, but one vote by one man is not an indictment of McConnell's skill.

Quote
pdq
Politics is the art of the possible.

Yup. And under the previous majority leader, possible was three Supreme Court justices, 54 federal appeals court appointments, 174 federal district court appointments, plus the largest tax giveaway to America's wealthiest in a generation.

So far, under the current majority leader, we have a handful of presidential appointments, no judicial accomplishments or apparent strategy, and a one-shot chance at a reconciliation bill that is being whittled away a piece at a time.

As they say, 'Fingers crossed!'



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: vision63
Date: February 26, 2021 04:10PM
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
pdq
Meh. McConnell couldn't wheedle, intimidate, bribe, or otherwise convince McCain to vote to dump Obamacare, and we're lucky he didn't.

No disrespect to Senator McCain, but one vote by one man is not an indictment of McConnell's skill.

Quote
pdq
Politics is the art of the possible.

Yup. And under the previous majority leader, possible was three Supreme Court justices, 54 federal appeals court appointments, 174 federal district court appointments, plus the largest tax giveaway to America's wealthiest in a generation.

So far, under the current majority leader, we have a handful of presidential appointments, no judicial accomplishments or apparent strategy, and a one-shot chance at a reconciliation bill that is being whittled away a piece at a time.

As they say, 'Fingers crossed!'

Also Collins and Murkowski. Details, details. And you're dreaming if you think the Republican caucus is all that diverse.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2021 04:12PM by vision63.
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: February 26, 2021 04:23PM
It's got Murkowski, Hawley, Romney, and Cruz.

Explain to me how that's less diverse than Sanders, Manchin, Klobuchar, and Feinstein.

Not buying it.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2021 04:24PM by rjmacs.
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: vision63
Date: February 26, 2021 04:42PM
Quote
rjmacs
It's got Murkowski, Hawley, Romney, and Cruz.

Explain to me how that's less diverse than Sanders, Manchin, Klobuchar, and Feinstein.

Not buying it.

Murkowski, Hawley, Romney and Cruz vote exactly the same on virtually all legislation save for a few key votes. Klobuchar and Feinstein shouldn't be in your list since they're both liberals in safe seats.

It should be the radical leftist Sanders, Manchin, Kyrsten Sinema, Mark Kelly, John Ossoff, Raphael Warnock, John Tester, Catherine Cortez Masto, Jacky Rosen and Tammy Baldwin. Those are seats we can easily lose and must be protected and they sometimes have to vote differently because of the nature of their constituency. I included Sanders because he's different and knows how to grift his Senate elections.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2021 04:43PM by vision63.
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: graylocks
Date: February 26, 2021 08:34PM
Quote
rjmacs
and a one-shot chance at a reconciliation bill that is being whittled away a piece at a time.

actually the Dems have two reconciliation bill shots in the chamber (pun intended). we are currently in fiscal year 2020 that begin Oct 1and runs until Sept 30, 2021. The American Rescue Act is the shot for the fiscal year.

A new fiscal year starts October 1, 2021. If getting to $15 is so important to do ASAP we could take that shot in October.

Rachel Maddow talked about this two-shot scenario over a month ago. As I first posted, we need to stop acting like this bill is the only one that's going to ever be passed.



"Success isn't about how much money you make. It is about the difference you make in people's lives."--Michelle Obama



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2021 08:36PM by graylocks.
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: February 27, 2021 10:08AM
Quote
graylocks
Quote
rjmacs
and a one-shot chance at a reconciliation bill that is being whittled away a piece at a time.

actually the Dems have two reconciliation bill shots in the chamber (pun intended). we are currently in fiscal year 2020 that begin Oct 1and runs until Sept 30, 2021. The American Rescue Act is the shot for the fiscal year.

A new fiscal year starts October 1, 2021. If getting to $15 is so important to do ASAP we could take that shot in October.

Rachel Maddow talked about this two-shot scenario over a month ago. As I first posted, we need to stop acting like this bill is the only one that's going to ever be passed.

What is the advantage of waiting?

If the Senate parliamentarian says no on this reconciliation addition now, why would she rule differently in October 2021? If the minimum wage increase needs to be rewritten to be allowed, why not do it now?

And if there's another way to get it approved now, why not do it?

I know people need the relief checks and the employment benefit extensions and that's been held up long enough. But if Republicans were in control now there would be a huge tax cut attached to this bill and they'd get it.

Dems need to get this done
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: February 27, 2021 10:23AM
I heard Paul Krugman suggest that one advantage to having the minimum wage increase as a single, separate bill is that it would force Republicans to publicly cast their votes for or against the increase; no other attached fiscal expenditures that they could disingenuously claim as the reason for their “no” vote.
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: February 27, 2021 10:49AM
Quote
graylocks
Quote
rjmacs
and a one-shot chance at a reconciliation bill that is being whittled away a piece at a time.

actually the Dems have two reconciliation bill shots in the chamber (pun intended). we are currently in fiscal year 2020 that begin Oct 1and runs until Sept 30, 2021. The American Rescue Act is the shot for the fiscal year.

A new fiscal year starts October 1, 2021. If getting to $15 is so important to do ASAP we could take that shot in October.

Rachel Maddow talked about this two-shot scenario over a month ago. As I first posted, we need to stop acting like this bill is the only one that's going to ever be passed.

That's true, but any changes in a second reconciliation bill clearly won't be able to take effect until the end of the year.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: $tevie
Date: February 27, 2021 04:51PM
Personally, I hate gigantic bills that try to be all things to all people. If the only way they can increase minimum wage is to hold covid relief hostage to it, then perhaps it needs to be pulled out and debated on its merits instead of trying to guilt everyone into raising the minimum wage so that people can get their relief checks.

I think it DOES need more debate, because right now the people I know with small, and I mean small, businesses (I live in a neighborhood filled with small bars, stores, and restaurants) are panicked about it because it's never explained -- it's just thrown around as a hot potato. Congress is just a bunch of people cramming through monster bills that leave everyone angry and confused, and I'm sick of it.



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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: decocritter
Date: February 27, 2021 05:30PM
Why not try for a lesser number than$15, one that might get considered?
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: February 27, 2021 05:48PM
Quote
decocritter
Why not try for a lesser number than$15, one that might get considered?

Because economic justice?



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: btfc
Date: February 27, 2021 07:37PM
Not really buying that passing a stimulus bill without a $15 minimum wage in it is a terrible, horrible thing. The best thing to do is pass the best stimulus possible as soon as possible. The issue of Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema is one that will need to be addressed at some point, IMHO better sooner than later. If a $15 minimum comes up for a vote on its own and then those two kill it, get it on the record; there will be ramifications for them and their states that are bound to follow, that’s the way politics work.
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: deckeda
Date: February 27, 2021 08:39PM
Quote
$tevie
Personally, I hate gigantic bills that try to be all things to all people. If the only way they can increase minimum wage is to hold covid relief hostage to it, then perhaps it needs to be pulled out and debated on its merits instead of trying to guilt everyone into raising the minimum wage so that people can get their relief checks.

I think it DOES need more debate, because right now the people I know with small, and I mean small, businesses (I live in a neighborhood filled with small bars, stores, and restaurants) are panicked about it because it's never explained -- it's just thrown around as a hot potato. Congress is just a bunch of people cramming through monster bills that leave everyone angry and confused, and I'm sick of it.

All this.

A national minimum wage transcends any lump stimulus thing. These and omnibus bills are done for expediency and convenience, not because anyone will read a multi-hundred page bill, let alone debate it well.
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: February 27, 2021 08:56PM
The dems have only so much time before the midterms to get shiit done, so I understand the expediency thing. But like others said, voters are not that stupid to see that tacking items into the relief package (even if it benefits those same voters), is worth risking delay.

Wouldn't it be nice to make Republicans vote on a separate bill before the midterms next year? Wink, wink.
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Re: Dems once again show why voters hate politicians
Posted by: vision63
Date: February 27, 2021 09:04PM
Quote
btfc
Not really buying that passing a stimulus bill without a $15 minimum wage in it is a terrible, horrible thing. The best thing to do is pass the best stimulus possible as soon as possible. The issue of Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema is one that will need to be addressed at some point, IMHO better sooner than later. If a $15 minimum comes up for a vote on its own and then those two kill it, get it on the record; there will be ramifications for them and their states that are bound to follow, that’s the way politics work.

They're just doing what their constituents want. If we want Manchin and Sinema on board, shame won't do it. You make a deal with them that's difficult for them to refuse. They're politicians. Vermont Jesus can float a standalone bill.

We knew long ago that they wouldn't be on board with the hike. But everyone kept going like they would. Talking a bunch of junk, hyping up the rabble. That's waste of time and a waste of energy.

The Senate parliamentarian knew that if minimum wage was on the bill, we'd lose 2 votes and it would kill the entire bill. Why isn't this clearly understood?

Now Biden is going to deliver $1400 check, a HUGE amounts of money for people with children, in spite of a bunch of obnoxiously incompetent officials flailing their arms. Political extremists marginalized. Vaccine numbers picking up. Getting back to some kind of normal.
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