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Senior with dementia and aphasia trades $14 worth of products for broken arm
Posted by: deckeda
Date: April 20, 2021 06:24AM
[www.washingtonpost.com]

“On June 26, Garner had gone to a Walmart near her home in Loveland, a town about 50 miles north of Denver, and then walked out with soda, candy, a T-shirt and cleaning supplies worth $13.88 without paying, according to her family’s lawsuit.

“Employees intercepted her outside and took the items back, refusing to take her credit card to pay for them. Confused, Garner left and started walking home.

“Walmart employees called police about the incident, but also told dispatchers that Garner was elderly and that they’d already recovered the merchandise.

“But when Hopp spotted her walking through a field near the road moments later, he aggressively moved to arrest her, body camera footage showed.

“ “I don’t think you want to play it this way,” he said as she walked away from him. Garner held her hands in the air, clutching the flowers she’d collected, and then continued walking. “Do you need to be arrested right now?” he asked.

“ Within seconds, Hopp grabbed her arms and began wrenching them backward to handcuff her. For several minutes, as Garner repeatedly cried that she was “going home,” he struggled with her on the ground, fighting to keep her hands behind her.

“Eventually Jalali arrived to help Hopp hold Garner against a cruiser as they continue fighting to pull her arms behind her.

“After Garner fell to the ground, a concerned bystander stopped to film the scene. “Do you have to use that much aggression?” the man can be heard asking in the bodycam video.

““Get out of here. This is not your business,” an officer replied.

“Prosecutors later dropped the charges against Garner.”
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Re: Senior with dementia and aphasia trades $14 worth of products for broken arm
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: April 20, 2021 06:54AM
Militarized officers whose training involves 'forced compliance'. The results will always be bad.
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Re: Senior with dementia and aphasia trades $14 worth of products for broken arm
Posted by: deckeda
Date: April 20, 2021 07:14AM
Quote
cbelt3
Militarized officers whose training involves 'forced compliance'. The results will always be bad.

Seems to be quite popular, and expected behavior. That’s the challenge of finding they’ve done “anything wrong.”
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Re: Senior with dementia and aphasia trades $14 worth of products for broken arm
Posted by: Lux Interior
Date: April 20, 2021 07:40AM
The law is the law!

You surely aren't suggesting that we allow the subjects to get away with such blatant thievery?

The Walton's aren't running a charity! They need to feed their families, too!
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Re: Senior with dementia and aphasia trades $14 worth of products for broken arm
Posted by: Randalls
Date: April 20, 2021 07:58AM
So they should have tazed her with a nine millimeter? Pretty sad.
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Re: Senior with dementia and aphasia trades $14 worth of products for broken arm
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: April 20, 2021 08:22AM
I'm a bit infamous for having memory issues thanks to gravity and hard surfaces. I once went through the self checkout at the grocery store and forgot to pay. And walked away. And a young cashier raced after me and told me that I had forgotten to pay. And I ran back and paid. And apologized profusely, and gave great praise to the young cart attendant who had noticed it and talked to his manager.

They didn't call the cops. They didn't have me beaten. They just recognized that sometimes memory stops working.

While the police officer is the physical actor in this little disaster, the policies in place by the wealthiest retail corporation on the planet are the root cause. A brief lapse of memory ? The things you worked to get into your cart are taken away. You are refused entry to the store. And banned to the store, which may be the only store that you can get to. AND then the police are involved and you are savaged.
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Re: Senior with dementia and aphasia trades $14 worth of products for broken arm
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: April 20, 2021 08:47AM
Where are her caregivers???

I see they've filed a federal lawsuit, maybe use some to provide appropriate care?

And of course fire the officers and send them to jail for aggravated assault.
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Re: Senior with dementia and aphasia trades $14 worth of products for broken arm
Posted by: C(-)ris
Date: April 20, 2021 09:09AM
Quote
Lemon Drop
Where are her caregivers???

I see they've filed a federal lawsuit, maybe use some to provide appropriate care?

And of course fire the officers and send them to jail for aggravated assault.

Police do what they are trained to do. Restrain and detain criminals. They aren't mental health providers or community advocates/social workers nor should they be. Two completely exclusive skillsets.

Why aren't you advocating for suing here caregivers for being negligent?



C(-)ris
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Re: Senior with dementia and aphasia trades $14 worth of products for broken arm
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: April 20, 2021 09:15AM
.
This is another example of a wellness check gone massively wrong. I almost posted this at zero dark thirthy Sunday morning when my insomnia wouldn't let me fall asleep.

Cops Tackled a Grandma With Dementia Picking Flowers, Bodycam Footage Shows
https: //www.vice.com/en/article/qj8487/cops-tackled-a-grandma-with-dementia-picking-flowers-bodycam-footage-shows

After dealing with my mom that would have brief (and unexpected) bouts of confusion, and I now realize what might be considered aphasia, I empathize a lot more with what caregivers deal with.



In tha 360. MRF User Map
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Re: Senior with dementia and aphasia trades $14 worth of products for broken arm
Posted by: Speedy
Date: April 20, 2021 09:20AM
Quote
C(-)ris
Quote
Lemon Drop
Where are her caregivers???

I see they've filed a federal lawsuit, maybe use some to provide appropriate care?

And of course fire the officers and send them to jail for aggravated assault.

Police do what they are trained to do. Restrain and detain criminals. They aren't mental health providers or community advocates/social workers nor should they be. Two completely exclusive skillsets.

Why aren't you advocating for suing here caregivers for being negligent?

Defund the police and hand off some of their work to others.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Senior with dementia and aphasia trades $14 worth of products for broken arm
Posted by: deckeda
Date: April 20, 2021 09:25AM
Quote
C(-)ris
Why aren't you advocating for suing here caregivers for being negligent?

And who would that be, and unless their responsibility includes some form of incarceration, someone on the outside is still hoped to not treat everyone like a professional shoplifter, right?
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Re: Senior with dementia and aphasia trades $14 worth of products for broken arm
Posted by: Lux Interior
Date: April 20, 2021 09:39AM
And the employees will probably get fired, too. I believe most retailers have a "hands-off" policy in dealing with shoplifters.
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Re: Senior with dementia and aphasia trades $14 worth of products for broken arm
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: April 20, 2021 09:45AM
Quote
C(-)ris
Police do what they are trained to do. Restrain and detain criminals. They aren't mental health providers or community advocates/social workers nor should they be. Two completely exclusive skillsets.

No, it is a result of police in the U.S. only sometimes required to have 90 days in a "Police Academy" (there's a reason the movie was made). This happens much less frequently in countries that require a dedicated two year training program that include welfare and wellness check training. I know it can be shocking to some U.S residents, but there are First World countries that do not usually let their lowest rank officers carry guns.



In tha 360. MRF User Map
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Re: Senior with dementia and aphasia trades $14 worth of products for broken arm
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: April 20, 2021 09:55AM
Quote
C(-)ris
Quote
Lemon Drop
Where are her caregivers???

I see they've filed a federal lawsuit, maybe use some to provide appropriate care?

And of course fire the officers and send them to jail for aggravated assault.

Police do what they are trained to do. Restrain and detain criminals. They aren't mental health providers or community advocates/social workers nor should they be. Two completely exclusive skillsets.

Why aren't you advocating for suing here caregivers for being negligent?

You're saying the police actions were appropriate here? No of course they were not.

One officer is suspended and 2 others are on leave, pending an investigation of potential criminal conduct.

Nobody is trained to do what these officers did. The least you can say is they used very poor judgement.
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Re: Senior with dementia and aphasia trades $14 worth of products for broken arm
Posted by: Acer
Date: April 20, 2021 09:56AM
Walmart employees really didn't do anything wrong here. They recovered the merchandise, and alerted authorities. It's not clear if they were seeking justice, following company policy, or genuinely concerned that the lady was having problems, but calling a cop on a shoplifter is a common thing. It's not their fault Officer Friendly had a flashback to the Gulf War.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/20/2021 09:58AM by Acer.
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Re: Senior with dementia and aphasia trades $14 worth of products for broken arm
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: April 20, 2021 10:05AM
Quote
Acer
Walmart employees really didn't do anything wrong here. They recovered the merchandise, and alerted authorities. It's not clear if they were seeking justice, following company policy, or genuinely concerned that the lady was having problems, but calling a cop on a shoplifter is a common thing. It's not their fault Officer Friendly had a flashback to the Gulf War.

I think that's a sad commentary on our society. The employees could have assessed the situation, amd let the lady pay for her items and be on her way. People have minds, hearts, commom sense and agency. A better choice could have been made and we would not be having this conversation and Mrs. Garner would be uninjured.
We are on earth to protect one another.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/20/2021 10:05AM by Lemon Drop.
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Re: Senior with dementia and aphasia trades $14 worth of products for broken arm
Posted by: mattkime
Date: April 20, 2021 10:05AM
Quote
C(-)ris
Police do what they are trained to do. Restrain and detain criminals

One would hope part of their training would be determining when such force is appropriate, rather than shrugging their shoulders and saying "What do you expect when you call the police?"



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Re: Senior with dementia and aphasia trades $14 worth of products for broken arm
Posted by: Speedy
Date: April 20, 2021 10:13AM
Quote
Lemon Drop
Quote
Acer
Walmart employees really didn't do anything wrong here. They recovered the merchandise, and alerted authorities. It's not clear if they were seeking justice, following company policy, or genuinely concerned that the lady was having problems, but calling a cop on a shoplifter is a common thing. It's not their fault Officer Friendly had a flashback to the Gulf War.

I think that's a sad commentary on our society. The employees could have assessed the situation, amd let the lady pay for her items and be on her way. People have minds, hearts, commom sense and agency. A better choice could have been made and we would not be having this conversation and Mrs. Garner would be uninjured.
We are on earth to protect one another.

Good plan. If they ever implement it I’ll always walk out without paying and, when confronted, pay. I’m sure I can get away with some stuff occasionally.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Senior with dementia and aphasia trades $14 worth of products for broken arm
Posted by: Sam3
Date: April 20, 2021 10:17AM
Quote
Lemon Drop
Quote
Acer
Walmart employees really didn't do anything wrong here. They recovered the merchandise, and alerted authorities. It's not clear if they were seeking justice, following company policy, or genuinely concerned that the lady was having problems, but calling a cop on a shoplifter is a common thing. It's not their fault Officer Friendly had a flashback to the Gulf War.

I think that's a sad commentary on our society. The employees could have assessed the situation, amd let the lady pay for her items and be on her way. People have minds, hearts, commom sense and agency. A better choice could have been made and we would not be having this conversation and Mrs. Garner would be uninjured.
We are on earth to protect one another.

I totally agree, and cbelt3's story affirms that there are alternative ways of handling situations like these.

What really irks me is the Walmart employees refusing to allow her to pay for the items when she offered, which is what cbelt was allowed to do, and did.

Quote
Washington Post
“Employees intercepted her outside and took the items back, refusing to take her credit card to pay for them. Confused, Garner left and started walking home.

So I do place the blame for this whole incident onto the idiotic Walmart employees and managers.



The arts are not luxuries but assets that give way more than they cost.
--Ronald Tucker on YouTube

A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it is not open.
--Frank Zappa
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Re: Senior with dementia and aphasia trades $14 worth of products for broken arm
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: April 20, 2021 11:01AM
Quote
Speedy
Quote
Lemon Drop
Quote
Acer
Walmart employees really didn't do anything wrong here. They recovered the merchandise, and alerted authorities. It's not clear if they were seeking justice, following company policy, or genuinely concerned that the lady was having problems, but calling a cop on a shoplifter is a common thing. It's not their fault Officer Friendly had a flashback to the Gulf War.

I think that's a sad commentary on our society. The employees could have assessed the situation, amd let the lady pay for her items and be on her way. People have minds, hearts, commom sense and agency. A better choice could have been made and we would not be having this conversation and Mrs. Garner would be uninjured.
We are on earth to protect one another.

Good plan. If they ever implement it I’ll always walk out without paying and, when confronted, pay. I’m sure I can get away with some stuff occasionally.

Is this sarcasm?
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Re: Senior with dementia and aphasia trades $14 worth of products for broken arm
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: April 20, 2021 11:12AM
Quote
Lemon Drop

We are on earth to protect one another.

You should have a talk with the Walton family about this. I don't think they've gotten the memo.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: Senior with dementia and aphasia trades $14 worth of products for broken arm
Posted by: lost in space
Date: April 20, 2021 11:35AM
The officers did "what they were trained to do" and "followed guidelines", both commonly heard justifications for using excessive force. The training and guidelines aren't always right.

I was knocked around by a cop years ago. A family friend who was a lawyer--a very left-leaning one--suggested I forget about pursuing any actions against the cop because it would go nowhere.



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Re: Senior with dementia and aphasia trades $14 worth of products for broken arm
Posted by: Spock
Date: April 20, 2021 12:22PM
We need to replace “Warrior” cops with Guardian cops.



Comedy Central: Best news channel that isn't a news channel.

Fox News: Best comedy channel that isn't a comedy channel.
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Re: Senior with dementia and aphasia trades $14 worth of products for broken arm
Posted by: CJsNvrUrly
Date: April 20, 2021 02:09PM
I'd think long and hard before calling the cops in any situation these days for fear of things going wrong. I'd hate to have been the person to have called the cops on George Floyd, for example. sad smiley




bunny smileyCentral VA
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Re: Senior with dementia and aphasia trades $14 worth of products for broken arm
Posted by: Speedy
Date: April 20, 2021 02:39PM
Quote
CJsNvrUrly
I'd think long and hard before calling the cops in any situation these days for fear of things going wrong. I'd hate to have been the person to have called the cops on George Floyd, for example. sad smiley

The clerk who did call the cops on Floyd agrees with you.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Senior with dementia and aphasia trades $14 worth of products for broken arm
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: April 20, 2021 02:50PM
When there's a fire we call the Fire Department, and they're there as soon as possible.

When there's an armed robbery we call the Police Department and they're there as soon as possible.

When there's a mentally ill person walking down the middle of the street naked, we call the Mental Health Department and they're... they're...




They're either nonexistent, or incapable of responding in any appropriately timely way.
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Re: Senior with dementia and aphasia trades $14 worth of products for broken arm
Posted by: C(-)ris
Date: April 20, 2021 04:46PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
Quote
C(-)ris
Quote
Lemon Drop
Where are her caregivers???

I see they've filed a federal lawsuit, maybe use some to provide appropriate care?

And of course fire the officers and send them to jail for aggravated assault.

Police do what they are trained to do. Restrain and detain criminals. They aren't mental health providers or community advocates/social workers nor should they be. Two completely exclusive skillsets.

Why aren't you advocating for suing here caregivers for being negligent?

You're saying the police actions were appropriate here? No of course they were not.

One officer is suspended and 2 others are on leave, pending an investigation of potential criminal conduct.

Nobody is trained to do what these officers did. The least you can say is they used very poor judgement.

No, I don't agree that the actions were appropriate for the situation, but I do think that it should have been expected if the police were called. Poor judgement? Yes, but for all we know the last shoplifter that officer tried to apprehend stabbed or shot at them and yes, little old ladies have been known to carry.

You cannot expect people to be shot at, punched, stabbed, and put their life on the line etc. as part of their job and simultaneously treat everyone they encounter with kid gloves. The human brain does not operate that way. You can't just flip a switch in your head and go from police officer ready to make an arrest to mental health professional.

I don't think 6 months or even a year of training in Police Academy can rewire the human brain to work that way.

Quote
DeusxMac
When there's a fire we call the Fire Department, and they're there as soon as possible.

When there's an armed robbery we call the Police Department and they're there as soon as possible.

When there's a mentally ill person walking down the middle of the street naked, we call the Mental Health Department and they're... they're...




They're either nonexistent, or incapable of responding in any appropriately timely way.

The Fire department puts out the fire and they are done. Everyone is happy the fire is out.

The police department arrests the robber and they are done. Everyone is happy the criminal is off the street.

The Mental Health Department.... If it was as simple as creating a department to take an action and resolve a persons mental health it would already be done.

Mental Health support isn't a one visit and you are good to go thing. It is years or even a lifetime of support and even then, you might not make any progress.



C(-)ris
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Throwback Thursday Signature:




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/20/2021 04:54PM by C(-)ris.
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Re: Senior with dementia and aphasia trades $14 worth of products for broken arm
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: April 20, 2021 04:53PM
Quote
C(-)ris
Quote
Lemon Drop
Quote
C(-)ris
Quote
Lemon Drop
Where are her caregivers???

I see they've filed a federal lawsuit, maybe use some to provide appropriate care?

And of course fire the officers and send them to jail for aggravated assault.

Police do what they are trained to do. Restrain and detain criminals. They aren't mental health providers or community advocates/social workers nor should they be. Two completely exclusive skillsets.

Why aren't you advocating for suing here caregivers for being negligent?

You're saying the police actions were appropriate here? No of course they were not.

One officer is suspended and 2 others are on leave, pending an investigation of potential criminal conduct.

Nobody is trained to do what these officers did. The least you can say is they used very poor judgement.

No, I don't agree that the actions were appropriate for the situation, but I do think that it should have been expected if the police were called. Poor judgement? Yes, but for all we know the last shoplifter that officer tried to apprehend stabbed or shot at them and yes, little old ladies have been known to carry.

You cannot expect people to be shot at, punched, stabbed, and put their life on the line etc. as part of their job and simultaneously treat everyone they encounter with kid gloves. The human brain does not operate that way. You can't just flip a switch in your head and go from police officer ready to make an arrest to mental health professional.

I don't think 6 months or even a year of training in Police Academy can rewire the human brain to work that way.

And yet...most officers stop people safely all day long and never injure or kill anyone. Are they special? No.

It's past time to stop excusing police use of excessive force.
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Re: Senior with dementia and aphasia trades $14 worth of products for broken arm
Posted by: C(-)ris
Date: April 20, 2021 04:58PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
Quote
C(-)ris
Quote
Lemon Drop
Quote
C(-)ris
Quote
Lemon Drop
Where are her caregivers???

I see they've filed a federal lawsuit, maybe use some to provide appropriate care?

And of course fire the officers and send them to jail for aggravated assault.

Police do what they are trained to do. Restrain and detain criminals. They aren't mental health providers or community advocates/social workers nor should they be. Two completely exclusive skillsets.

Why aren't you advocating for suing here caregivers for being negligent?

You're saying the police actions were appropriate here? No of course they were not.

One officer is suspended and 2 others are on leave, pending an investigation of potential criminal conduct.

Nobody is trained to do what these officers did. The least you can say is they used very poor judgement.

No, I don't agree that the actions were appropriate for the situation, but I do think that it should have been expected if the police were called. Poor judgement? Yes, but for all we know the last shoplifter that officer tried to apprehend stabbed or shot at them and yes, little old ladies have been known to carry.

You cannot expect people to be shot at, punched, stabbed, and put their life on the line etc. as part of their job and simultaneously treat everyone they encounter with kid gloves. The human brain does not operate that way. You can't just flip a switch in your head and go from police officer ready to make an arrest to mental health professional.

I don't think 6 months or even a year of training in Police Academy can rewire the human brain to work that way.

And yet...most officers stop people safely all day long and never injure or kill anyone. Are they special? No.

It's past time to stop excusing police use of excessive force.

It is likely multiple factors at play. I would say that given certain circumstances even the most caring officer could have a laps in judgement. Do you have some sort of test to determine if someone is a "good person" to you? As soon as they do something you don't like they are evil and always have been?



C(-)ris
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Re: Senior with dementia and aphasia trades $14 worth of products for broken arm
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: April 20, 2021 05:09PM
Quote
C(-)ris
Quote
Lemon Drop
Quote
C(-)ris
Quote
Lemon Drop
Where are her caregivers???

I see they've filed a federal lawsuit, maybe use some to provide appropriate care?

And of course fire the officers and send them to jail for aggravated assault.

Police do what they are trained to do. Restrain and detain criminals. They aren't mental health providers or community advocates/social workers nor should they be. Two completely exclusive skillsets.

Why aren't you advocating for suing here caregivers for being negligent?

You're saying the police actions were appropriate here? No of course they were not.

One officer is suspended and 2 others are on leave, pending an investigation of potential criminal conduct.

Nobody is trained to do what these officers did. The least you can say is they used very poor judgement.

No, I don't agree that the actions were appropriate for the situation, but I do think that it should have been expected if the police were called. Poor judgement? Yes, but for all we know the last shoplifter that officer tried to apprehend stabbed or shot at them and yes, little old ladies have been known to carry.

We cannot allow police officers to react as though every situation is likely to be the worst possible situation. The goal is to preserve public safety, not to protect officers at all and every cost.

Quote
C(-)ris
You cannot expect people to be shot at, punched, stabbed, and put their life on the line etc. as part of their job and simultaneously treat everyone they encounter with kid gloves. The human brain does not operate that way. You can't just flip a switch in your head and go from police officer ready to make an arrest to mental health professional.

I don't think 6 months or even a year of training in Police Academy can rewire the human brain to work that way.

You make a compelling argument for much better training of police officers. Until that exists, we will continue to point out the hazards of empowering people with badges and guns to make deadly and damaging mistakes.

Quote
C(-)ris
Quote
DeusxMac
When there's a fire we call the Fire Department, and they're there as soon as possible.

When there's an armed robbery we call the Police Department and they're there as soon as possible.

When there's a mentally ill person walking down the middle of the street naked, we call the Mental Health Department and they're... they're...


They're either nonexistent, or incapable of responding in any appropriately timely way.

The Fire department puts out the fire and they are done. Everyone is happy the fire is out.

The police department arrests the robber and they are done. Everyone is happy the criminal is off the street.

The Mental Health Department.... If it was as simple as creating a department to take an action and resolve a persons mental health it would already be done.

Mental Health support isn't a one visit and you are good to go thing. It is years or even a lifetime of support and even then, you might not make any progress.

You make a compelling argument for universal healthcare. Until that exists, we will continue to point out that sending armed officers to handle mentally ill people who broadly pose no real danger to others is incredibly dangerous, and outside the scope of what people charged with preserving public safety should be asked to do.

Quote
C(-)ris
Quote
Lemon Drop
And yet...most officers stop people safely all day long and never injure or kill anyone. Are they special? No.

It's past time to stop excusing police use of excessive force.

It is likely multiple factors at play. I would say that given certain circumstances even the most caring officer could have a laps in judgement. Do you have some sort of test to determine if someone is a "good person" to you? As soon as they do something you don't like they are evil and always have been?

You make a compelling argument for much better screening of potential police officers. Indeed, such screening tools to determine whether someone is a 'good person [to be a police officer]' do exist. We need to require those we empower with badges and guns to preserve public safety to meet a higher standard than the average person. We can do it, and we ought to.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: Senior with dementia and aphasia trades $14 worth of products for broken arm
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: April 20, 2021 05:36PM
C(-)ris, you miss my point...

We have Fire Departments which can respond to a fire situation almost immediately.

We have Police Departments which can respond to a crime situation almost immediately.

We have NO government department which can immediately respond to a mental health situation... so the untrained and unprepared police are called. And this incident shows how dangerously poor that often goes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/20/2021 05:55PM by DeusxMac.
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Re: Senior with dementia and aphasia trades $14 worth of products for broken arm
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: April 20, 2021 05:43PM
Quote
DeusxMac
LD, you miss my point...

I didn't respond to you.
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Re: Senior with dementia and aphasia trades $14 worth of products for broken arm
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: April 20, 2021 05:52PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
Quote
DeusxMac
LD, you miss my point...

I didn't respond to you.

Sorry, viewing these nested responses-to-responses-to-responses on a phone screen led me astray.
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Re: Senior with dementia and aphasia trades $14 worth of products for broken arm
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: April 20, 2021 06:05PM
Quote
DeusxMac
Quote
Lemon Drop
Quote
DeusxMac
LD, you miss my point...

I didn't respond to you.

Sorry, viewing these nested responses-to-responses-to-responses on a phone screen led me astray.

No worries I find that hard to read too.
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Re: Senior with dementia and aphasia trades $14 worth of products for broken arm
Posted by: C(-)ris
Date: April 20, 2021 06:29PM
Quote
DeusxMac
C(-)ris, you miss my point...

We have Fire Departments which can respond to a fire situation almost immediately.

We have Police Departments which can respond to a crime situation almost immediately.

We have NO government department which can immediately respond to a mental health situation... so the untrained and unprepared police are called. And this incident shows how dangerously poor that often goes.

I did, you missed it. There isn't a department that can immediately respond because it doesn't work that way. You can't immediately respond to a mental health issue and solve it and move on to the next one. Your fleet of mental health navigators would work for about 2 weeks and then they would be over run by the follow up and ongoing needs. You would have to be constantly hiring people exponentially as new calls come in. Caseload will never decrease, it will only increase. Plus, you are going to have people who refuse treatment. Are you going to force them to comply with the Mental Health staff? Some of them will be violent. How do you distinguish and decide who responds?



C(-)ris
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/20/2021 06:44PM by C(-)ris.
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Re: Senior with dementia and aphasia trades $14 worth of products for broken arm
Posted by: hal
Date: April 20, 2021 07:40PM
Quote
DeusxMac
When there's a fire we call the Fire Department, and they're there as soon as possible.

When there's an armed robbery we call the Police Department and they're there as soon as possible.

When there's a mentally ill person walking down the middle of the street naked, we call the Mental Health Department and they're... they're...

They're either nonexistent, or incapable of responding in any appropriately timely way.

That's fine for crazy, naked people running down the street, but most crazy people aren't naked when they are acting crazy. What if that crazy person pulls a gun - who do you call now? When everyone says that their mentally deficient adult child is harmless and then brutalizes the MHD people that come to help, what happens next?

How is this going to work while guaranteeing the safety of the MHD people? I cant see is all the way through.
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Re: Senior with dementia and aphasia trades $14 worth of products for broken arm
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: April 20, 2021 07:41PM
C(-)ris, I never implied that such an operation would be a “solution”. That’s your miss interpretation.

EMTs respond to medical emergencies, but their work doesn’t “solve” what brought them to the site of the emergency. They administer first aid as needed, then can pass the injured off to a more capable ER, then move on to their next call. The ER and hospital would take over any more complex treatment needed.

In the same fashion, a municipality could establish an emergency mental crisis response system which would deal with incidents immediately, render first treatment, then transport to an appropriate mental health facility.

In the example of the OP, they would be the ones called to assess, and help this woman, not armed police.



Also, an appropriate police first response does not end the full response to a crime. Suspects are first confronted, arrested if warranted, then transferred to a police facility for further evaluation and appropriate disposition.
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Re: Senior with dementia and aphasia trades $14 worth of products for broken arm
Posted by: kj
Date: April 20, 2021 07:57PM
This kind of thing gives me PTSD because I've been in hundreds of similar situations as a caregiver (and a few times not). Many, many people need 24 hr. care and not all of them can have it. It's SO expensive. 13.00/hr. x 24hrs. is 300 some, times 30 for the month is over 9k per month.

The cops don't know the context. And let me tell you, even when people know why their loved ones are behaving irrationally, perfectly normal people lose their crap and basically abuse them. Frustration, and there exists no good way to handle a lot of situations. So people that don't even know what's going on? No way they respond appropriately.

AND, if cops are chosen based on being able to handle the difficult things they have to handle, day in and day out, they are often not the best at handling sensitive situations. I had the same problem hiring in healthcare. Decisive person who gets things done but gets upset when people don't comply, or laid back, patient person who is too laid back about giving meds and changing attends. Very infrequent that someone has both temperaments and skills. Very tough and very compassionate? You don't find it often. You can't find it for Mental Health Services either, and they need to be both. Actually, same for special ed too. Compassionate and able to handle daily physical intervention. Not a common ability.

People in law enforcement are not dumb. If you've thought of it, someone there has also thought of it, and more. Of course, they can do better, but they have a difficult job. It's not that simple.
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Re: Senior with dementia and aphasia trades $14 worth of products for broken arm
Posted by: kj
Date: April 20, 2021 08:15PM
Quote
DeusxMac
C(-)ris, I never implied that such an operation would be a “solution”. That’s your miss interpretation.

EMTs respond to medical emergencies, but their work doesn’t “solve” what brought them to the site of the emergency. They administer first aid as needed, then can pass the injured off to a more capable ER, then move on to their next call. The ER and hospital would take over any more complex treatment needed.

In the same fashion, a municipality could establish an emergency mental crisis response system which would deal with incidents immediately, render first treatment, then transport to an appropriate mental health facility.

In the example of the OP, they would be the ones called to assess, and help this woman, not armed police.



Also, an appropriate police first response does not end the full response to a crime. Suspects are first confronted, arrested if warranted, then transferred to a police facility for further evaluation and appropriate disposition.

People say this all the time, and I'm floored that people think no one has ever thought of this before. I've never heard of anywhere that doesn't have a Mental Health Crisis Intervention team, or whatever it might be called. You know who they call when there is danger of physical aggression? The Cops! If you hired people who could handle the physical part of what would happen every day, they would be as bad or worse than policemen. When I did health care, we called them once, and we never called them again. They were awful. They made a bad situation worse. No one else in town bothered to call them either.

I can see having a different entity handle Mental Health issues, etc. but only to take the burden off the police. They're not going to handle situations any better. They'll need a "prn" medication, or "physical prompting" to get her into a vehicle, etc. It ain't pretty no matter how you look at it.
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Re: Senior with dementia and aphasia trades $14 worth of products for broken arm
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: April 20, 2021 08:16PM
Portland is trying. They just started a new group called Portland Street Response (PSR), but just last Friday had a call on someone with a gun and sent typical police response. Person was killed.

City: Fatal police shooting, most other calls, not a good fit for Portland Street Response
https: //www.kgw.com/article/news/local/city-fatal-police-shooting-most-other-calls-not-a-good-fit-for-portland-street-response/283-569ea96c-6ee8-4bee-a6a8-992965418c3e

"Witnesses have said they didn’t see any gun at all. The case is under investigation."

I hope this isn't like Baltimore, planting toy guns at shooting scenes.



In tha 360. MRF User Map
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Re: Senior with dementia and aphasia trades $14 worth of products for broken arm
Posted by: August West
Date: April 20, 2021 09:07PM
Quote

You cannot expect people to be shot at, punched, stabbed, and put their life on the line etc. as part of their job and simultaneously treat everyone they encounter with kid gloves. The human brain does not operate that way

Where do you get this viewpoint? The world is not some sort of fevered crime fetish. I think it's perfectly normal to imagine the human brain is capable of complex thought rather than a simplistic paradigm. I expect the police to treat people with decency, as is befit their privileged status in society.



Apologies to the anonymous forum member affected by my previous sig pic. It was my personal pic of a country expressing great grief as their leader, one of the most recognized people in the world, lay on his deathbed 8 years ago, days before he died. Like a naif, I did not realize it was offensively political, I considered it an expression of deep emotion and a reminder of the mortal coil's nature; that we all, great and small, can only hope to make a difference in our short time here, no matter the personal cost.

I'll post another pic from my work in South Africa that is, hopefully, apolitical.

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Re: Senior with dementia and aphasia trades $14 worth of products for broken arm
Posted by: C(-)ris
Date: April 20, 2021 10:46PM
Quote
August West
Quote

You cannot expect people to be shot at, punched, stabbed, and put their life on the line etc. as part of their job and simultaneously treat everyone they encounter with kid gloves. The human brain does not operate that way

Where do you get this viewpoint? The world is not some sort of fevered crime fetish. I think it's perfectly normal to imagine the human brain is capable of complex thought rather than a simplistic paradigm. I expect the police to treat people with decency, as is befit their privileged status in society.

You don't think that the experiences people have affect their mindset in ways they cannot control? Ever heard of PTSD? Panic Attacks? Fight or Flight?



C(-)ris
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Re: Senior with dementia and aphasia trades $14 worth of products for broken arm
Posted by: August West
Date: April 20, 2021 10:55PM
You seem to move goalposts quite a bit, C(-)ris. Not really an effective way to make a point. Whether or not I believe peoples minds are affected by their experiences has nothing to do with the ridiculous post you previously made.



Apologies to the anonymous forum member affected by my previous sig pic. It was my personal pic of a country expressing great grief as their leader, one of the most recognized people in the world, lay on his deathbed 8 years ago, days before he died. Like a naif, I did not realize it was offensively political, I considered it an expression of deep emotion and a reminder of the mortal coil's nature; that we all, great and small, can only hope to make a difference in our short time here, no matter the personal cost.

I'll post another pic from my work in South Africa that is, hopefully, apolitical.

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Re: Senior with dementia and aphasia trades $14 worth of products for broken arm
Posted by: C(-)ris
Date: April 20, 2021 11:11PM
Quote
Filliam H. Muffman
Portland is trying. They just started a new group called Portland Street Response (PSR), but just last Friday had a call on someone with a gun and sent typical police response. Person was killed.

That is interesting. They seem to be very limited in the calls they will be dispatched to and the hours and area they cover. 10am-6pm M-F and only one neighborhood. I would have thought that nights and weekends would have been the prime window for the PSR to operate. They do plan to expand in 2022 to 24/7.

Looks like 84 total dispatches in 3 months. 95% of the calls had no transport and the police called PSR in 3 times to handle situations that police were originally dispatched to.

That last statistic is probably the most notable. That means that officers responded and then determined that the best course of action was to call PSR instead of engaging and possibly escalating.

Will be interesting to see if they can make this work and be cost effective. $2 Million is a big chunk of change. Nevermind, the police budget alone is $248 Million, $2 Million to give this a try isn't going to hurt anything.



C(-)ris
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