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Columbus Cop Shoots/Kills 16-Yr-Old Black Girl Who Had A Knife
Posted by: SteveO
Date: April 21, 2021 01:30PM
Four slugs, right before the Chauvin verdict. Wonder if he thought he had his Taser out? Couldn't have shot her in the leg, fired in the air first, anything but fatal shots? Did he have to shoot at all? Could he have used a Taser? Could he have talked her out of the knife with his mouth instead of a weapon? How can cops bring in armed, mass shooting killers unharmed but not this girl?

[www.npr.org]

A 16-year-old Black girl was fatally shot by an officer outside her home after she called the police for help on Tuesday afternoon, according to her family.

The girl has been identified as Ma'Khia Bryant by her aunt, Hazel Bryant.

Bryant allegedly called officers at about 4:30 p.m. local time when a group of "older kids" threatened her with assault, her aunt told Ohio Statehouse News Bureau reporter Andy Chow. She did not elaborate on the nature of the threat.

The Columbus Police Department could not say on Tuesday whether Bryant was the one to call for assistance before she was shot.
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Re: Columbus Cop Shoots/Kills 16-Yr-Old Black Girl Who Had A Knife
Posted by: Lux Interior
Date: April 21, 2021 01:42PM
Quote
SteveO
Couldn't have shot her in the leg, fired in the air first, anything but fatal shots?

Shoot to wound/disarm is a TV/movie trope.

Aim center mass & shoot to kill. Otherwise, don't shoot.
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Re: Columbus Cop Shoots/Kills 16-Yr-Old Black Girl Who Had A Knife
Posted by: gabester
Date: April 21, 2021 01:56PM
Quote
Lux Interior
Quote
SteveO
Couldn't have shot her in the leg, fired in the air first, anything but fatal shots?

Shoot to wound/disarm is a TV/movie trope.

Aim center mass & shoot to kill. Otherwise, don't shoot.

Nonsense. There's a time for lethal force, and that time is VERY rare compared to how often it's used by present day police. My town's police hadn't discharged a firearm in over a decade, but a recent incident resulted in an officer shooting someone... in the leg. TWICE. AFTER he was fired upon.
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Re: Columbus Cop Shoots/Kills 16-Yr-Old Black Girl Who Had A Knife
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: April 21, 2021 01:58PM
Quote
gabester
Quote
Lux Interior
Quote
SteveO
Couldn't have shot her in the leg, fired in the air first, anything but fatal shots?

Shoot to wound/disarm is a TV/movie trope.

Aim center mass & shoot to kill. Otherwise, don't shoot.

Nonsense. There's a time for lethal force, and that time is VERY rare compared to how often it's used by present day police. My town's police hadn't discharged a firearm in over a decade, but a recent incident resulted in an officer shooting someone... in the leg. TWICE. AFTER he was fired upon.
It's training. Current Occupying Force Police training is 'shoot to kill if you FEEL threatened'.

Smaller towns don't train like that.
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Re: Columbus Cop Shoots/Kills 16-Yr-Old Black Girl Who Had A Knife
Posted by: CW2V
Date: April 21, 2021 02:04PM
...On June 10, 1983, Buck arrived at the house Tracey was staying at and demanded to see her. Tracey remained inside and contacted the police. Fifteen minutes later, with no officer in sight, Tracey exited the house to speak to Buck. Twenty five minutes after Tracey's call a single officer arrived. The officer sat in his car while Buck chased Tracey, grabbed her by the hair and stabbed her over twenty times.

The officer eventually exited the car and took the knife from Buck, but he made no effort to arrest him. While the officer watched, Buck kicked Tracey in the head several times, breaking her neck. Buck then ran into the house, grabbed Charles Jr. and brought him outside. Buck dropped Charles Jr. on Tracey's limp body and once again kicked her in the head.

Roughly forty minutes after the police arrived, Tracey was loaded into an ambulance. Buck threatened Tracey one more time and was finally arrested.

Buck was convicted of assault and sentenced to 20 years, but served less than eight years in prison.

Tracey Thurman spent eight months in the hospital. She is partially paralyzed to this day.

Officer was not threatened. Someone else's life was.

CW2V
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Re: Columbus Cop Shoots/Kills 16-Yr-Old Black Girl Who Had A Knife
Posted by: Lux Interior
Date: April 21, 2021 02:39PM
Quote
gabester
Nonsense. There's a time for lethal force, and that time is VERY rare compared to how often it's used by present day police. My town's police hadn't discharged a firearm in over a decade, but a recent incident resulted in an officer shooting someone... in the leg. TWICE. AFTER he was fired upon.

My point has nothing to do with the appropriateness of the level of force used. My point was that once the decision is made to shoot, it is shoot to kill.

Whether or not that was the correct/appropriate decision I have no opinion on at this point.
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Re: Columbus Cop Shoots/Kills 16-Yr-Old Black Girl Who Had A Knife
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: April 21, 2021 02:59PM
Quote
CW2V
...On June 10, 1983, Buck arrived at the house Tracey was staying at and demanded to see her. Tracey remained inside and contacted the police. Fifteen minutes later, with no officer in sight, Tracey exited the h....

CW2V

I am not certain what point you hope to make, but the tragic story you shared is typical of how police handled domestic violence against women and children until fairly recently. Tracey was lucky the officer came over at all.

While in this case the officer was obviously completely ineffective, that does not mean that jumping in with no thought or assessment is best. Police need to slow down and de-escalate situations. Too frequently THEY are the ones who introduce violence and urgency into situations, with sometimes tragic results.
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Re: Columbus Cop Shoots/Kills 16-Yr-Old Black Girl Who Had A Knife
Posted by: CW2V
Date: April 21, 2021 03:11PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
Quote
CW2V
...On June 10, 1983, Buck arrived at the house Tracey was staying at and demanded to see her. Tracey remained inside and contacted the police. Fifteen minutes later, with no officer in sight, Tracey exited the h....

CW2V

I am not certain what point you hope to make, but the tragic story you shared is typical of how police handled domestic violence against women and children until fairly recently. Tracey was lucky the officer came over at all.

While in this case the officer was obviously completely ineffective, that does not mean that jumping in with no thought or assessment is best. Police need to slow down and de-escalate situations. Too frequently THEY are the ones who introduce violence and urgency into situations, with sometimes tragic results.

The point was that the officer saw the young woman with a knife attacking another. It only takes a second for a knife to end a life in the right spot. The officer had a spit second to make a decision. He was not in danger. Another was. If he "Shot for the legs or in the air" a knife in the neck could've been the next thing to happen. Then what? There's too much gray here.

CW2V
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Re: Columbus Cop Shoots/Kills 16-Yr-Old Black Girl Who Had A Knife
Posted by: graylocks
Date: April 21, 2021 04:08PM
Quote
CW2V

The point was that the officer saw the young woman with a knife attacking another. It only takes a second for a knife to end a life in the right spot. The officer had a spit second to make a decision. He was not in danger. Another was. If he "Shot for the legs or in the air" a knife in the neck could've been the next thing to happen. Then what? There's too much gray here.

CW2V

I tend to agree here. i just watched the video. There was no time to slow down and deescalate. Another girl was a split second from a knife landing somewhere on her body.



"Success isn't about how much money you make. It is about the difference you make in people's lives."--Michelle Obama
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Re: Columbus Cop Shoots/Kills 16-Yr-Old Black Girl Who Had A Knife
Posted by: deckeda
Date: April 21, 2021 04:36PM
Quote
CW2V
... If he "Shot for the legs or in the air" a knife in the neck could've been the next thing to happen. Then what? There's too much gray here.

CW2V

The what-if game might be fun to play but the girl remains dead. Do us a favor and don’t always seek absolute answers to situations you don’t know about.

On the other hand, she held them off pretty well until the cops showed up. And if she’s the one who called them there it only speaks to their inability to pause for a second and try something-anything else, for the benefit of learning who the aggressors were.
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Re: Columbus Cop Shoots/Kills 16-Yr-Old Black Girl Who Had A Knife
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: April 21, 2021 04:58PM
Couldn't have shot her in the leg, fired in the air first, anything but fatal shots?


WE weren't there, so we don't KNOW what actually happened.

But NO to 'shooting in the leg'.

A bullet hits the femoral artery and the suspect dies, the cop is culpable for wrongful death.

Yes, there will be idiots on parade to say nothing will happen to the cop, but that's doesn't happen as often as you want to believe.

A shot misses and somebody is stabbed or there's a ricochet or and somebody else is person is injured injured or killed.

A warning shot?

No, for the same reasons above.



Aim center mass & shoot to kill stop. Otherwise, don't shoot.


Fixed that for you.

'Shoot to kill' is an internet forum trope.

The job is to stop the unlawful use of deadly force.

There is no Judge Dredd taught in police academies, regardless of how much the ignorant and uninitiated want to believe it.



My point was that once the decision is made to shoot, it is shoot to kill.


Still wrong.

If the use of deadly force is appropriate, then it's shoot center mass, and stop the suspect.

Of course there's a risk of the suspect dying, that's why it's called deadly force.

If a cop fails to use his firearm against an armed suspect, an a innocent bystander is injured or killed, he had fail in his duty, and is culpable.

And even if for some reason he wasn't, as in he was following forum wisdom and was waiting to be shot at before drawing his weapon, he's still be sued for wrongful death by the survivor.



but a recent incident resulted in an officer shooting someone... in the leg. TWICE. AFTER he was fired upon.


That cop is either a very bad shot or stupid, but maybe that's typical of Mayberry, RFDPD.

He's lucky the crook wasn't a better shot, and not studly enough to get off more shots that might have killed him or an innocent bystander.

Oh yes, deliberately shoot a suspect in the leg at the suspect fires one or more shots as he falls, and someone else is injured or killed, he and his department are culpable.

And an innocent person is injured ir killed.


that does not mean that jumping in with no thought or assessment is best.


You know that's what happened?

Did you see the video, how 'bout a link.

Columbus Police showed the video a second time in slow motion during Tuesday night's news conference. Woods said the video shows Bryant holding a knife as she pushes two girls. He said police believe she is attempting to stab both girls during the fight...

Body camera footage shows an officer getting out of his patrol car as he responds to a commotion on the driveway of a home.

As he approaches a group of people standing and shouting on the driveway, he asks, "What's going on?" Seconds later Bryant and another girl begin fighting in front of the officer.

Bryant can be seen pushing the girl to the ground. She then approaches a second girl and throws her against a car parked on the driveway. The officer shouts "Get down!" three times, pulls out his gun and shoots in Bryant's direction at least four times and she falls to the ground.

As the officer approaches her, a knife can be seen close to her.

One man standing off to the side on the driveway shouts to the officer, "She's just a kid!"



Yeah, she's just a kid with a knife, what possible harm could she be to anybody.

If that's the case, why were police even called?

How come nobody there intervened, especially Mr. She's Just a Kid.

So are you saying the cop should have deliberated and waited for a definite crime to have occurred, before as you say 'jumping in with no thought or assessment'?

How about waiting for more information before jumping in with no thought or assessment.



Current Occupying Force Police training is 'shoot to kill if you FEEL threatened'.


That's just plain bullsh¡t on so many levels.

I love Val Demings.





Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody matters or nobody matters.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2021 04:59PM by RAMd®d.
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Re: Columbus Cop Shoots/Kills 16-Yr-Old Black Girl Who Had A Knife
Posted by: Dennis S
Date: April 21, 2021 04:58PM
I have some questions:

• Who called the cops?
• Was she fighting off the other people?
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Re: Columbus Cop Shoots/Kills 16-Yr-Old Black Girl Who Had A Knife
Posted by: Ted King
Date: April 21, 2021 05:08PM
Quote
Dennis S
I have some questions:

• Who called the cops?
• Was she fighting off the other people?

Too early for me to make even much of a preliminary assessment of what happened. A lot of questions.



e pluribus unum
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Re: Columbus Cop Shoots/Kills 16-Yr-Old Black Girl Who Had A Knife
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: April 21, 2021 05:11PM
Quote
CW2V
Quote
Lemon Drop
Quote
CW2V
...On June 10, 1983, Buck arrived at the house Tracey was staying at and demanded to see her. Tracey remained inside and contacted the police. Fifteen minutes later, with no officer in sight, Tracey exited the h....

CW2V

I am not certain what point you hope to make, but the tragic story you shared is typical of how police handled domestic violence against women and children until fairly recently. Tracey was lucky the officer came over at all.

While in this case the officer was obviously completely ineffective, that does not mean that jumping in with no thought or assessment is best. Police need to slow down and de-escalate situations. Too frequently THEY are the ones who introduce violence and urgency into situations, with sometimes tragic results.

The point was that the officer saw the young woman with a knife attacking another. It only takes a second for a knife to end a life in the right spot. The officer had a spit second to make a decision. He was not in danger. Another was. If he "Shot for the legs or in the air" a knife in the neck could've been the next thing to happen. Then what? There's too much gray here.

CW2V

Now you're talking about this current case and the story in your earlier post is from 1983. So that's what I was commenting on.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2021 05:15PM by Lemon Drop.
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Re: Columbus Cop Shoots/Kills 16-Yr-Old Black Girl Who Had A Knife
Posted by: deckeda
Date: April 21, 2021 05:26PM
Quote
Dennis S
I have some questions:

• Who called the cops?
• Was she fighting off the other people?

It'll be interesting to learn that, and also why a young man or teen is also seen kicking one of the girls the moment she drops to the ground as if he was making a field goal attempt. Whose "side" was she on?? Whose "side" was he on??

Chaotic for sure, and offering little chance of a perfect decision.

I have a few questions. At ~10 feet or so, why are 4 shots needed for a stop maneuver? I mean, besides "just to be sure."

Left unsaid is that we seem to be OK with trading a near-certain death probability with the alternative possibility of a stabbing which may or may not result in another death.

Folks like to play what-if. OK, I can do that. What if the best outcome was for the "truly innocent" (girl in pink about to probably get stabbed, right?) was to suffer a knife wound, possibly fatal, and that our victim here suffered I don't know, one, maybe 2 shots at most, possibly fatal?

Where's the tradeoff? Where's the best opportunity to discover the truth of the situation later? Maybe with less people dead?
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Re: Columbus Cop Shoots/Kills 16-Yr-Old Black Girl Who Had A Knife
Posted by: August West
Date: April 21, 2021 06:09PM
The brief video I saw did not indict the officer. From my point of view, someone was about to stab another person and the police used sanctioned deadly force. Had the knife been coming at myself or a family member, I'd hope the officer did the same. That said, it of course sucks and it's early.



Apologies to the anonymous forum member affected by my previous sig pic. It was my personal pic of a country expressing great grief as their leader, one of the most recognized people in the world, lay on his deathbed 8 years ago, days before he died. Like a naif, I did not realize it was offensively political, I considered it an expression of deep emotion and a reminder of the mortal coil's nature; that we all, great and small, can only hope to make a difference in our short time here, no matter the personal cost.

I'll post another pic from my work in South Africa that is, hopefully, apolitical.

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Re: Columbus Cop Shoots/Kills 16-Yr-Old Black Girl Who Had A Knife
Posted by: Speedy
Date: April 21, 2021 06:17PM
I agree, it looked like a good shoot although maybe two shots would have obviated the attack yet allowed her to survive but I have no real problem with how it went down.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Columbus Cop Shoots/Kills 16-Yr-Old Black Girl Who Had A Knife
Posted by: Blankity Blank
Date: April 21, 2021 09:11PM
Edit
Post withdrawn after reviewing video of subject incident. This post was informative, but not relavent to a discussion of this incident.



National Suicide Prevention Hotline tel:1-800-273-8255

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2021 09:25PM by Blankity Blank.
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Re: Columbus Cop Shoots/Kills 16-Yr-Old Black Girl Who Had A Knife
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: April 21, 2021 10:45PM
Folks like to play what-if. OK, I can do that. What if the best outcome was for the "truly innocent" (girl in pink about to probably get stabbed, right?) was to suffer a knife wound, possibly fatal, and that our victim here suffered I don't know, one, maybe 2 shots at most, possibly fatal?


Please explain how that could be 'the best possible outcome'.

Without stating the results of the injuries, the proposed 'outcome' is meaningless.

Both live- ok.

Both die- not ok.

Stabbing victim lives, shot suspect dies- ok.

Stabbing victim dies, shooting suspect lives, not ok


So how does a cop, in the span of time shown in the video, respond to get the first outcome - nobody dies?

[www.youtube.com]

Adults present prior to police arrival failed to intervene in any manner that might have prevented this.

And I hope the brave SOB that kicked one of the female victims while she was on the ground, then started shouting that the suspect 'was just a kid' gets arrested for assault.

Maybe he's her father, uncle, whatever.

But I'd posit he's part of this whole situation, and could have prevented it.

A thorough investigation appears to be underway.

It is a tragedy, but it could have been a far worse one.

The media linking this to other shootings, for ratings sensationalism, doesn't help at all.

One reporter asks what deescalation tactics the officer used...

Wow, just wow.





Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody matters or nobody matters.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: Columbus Cop Shoots/Kills 16-Yr-Old Black Girl Who Had A Knife
Posted by: Blankity Blank
Date: April 22, 2021 12:06AM
RAMd®d, are the ‘beanbag’ projectiles still in use? Do you know what was the general opinion among law enforcement was of them? Also, if you know, is there any ‘less lethal’ force option(s) available or on the horizon that on the street law enforcement officers would like to have available that they don’t have now? Thanks.



National Suicide Prevention Hotline tel:1-800-273-8255

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
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Re: Columbus Cop Shoots/Kills 16-Yr-Old Black Girl Who Had A Knife
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: April 22, 2021 07:09AM
Bean bag rounds have fallen out of favor with a lot of departments, because they have inflicted a lot of injury, and the 12ga shotguns can be time consuming to deploy quickly, usually being stored in a trunk or the back of an SUV.

They also require a second cop to use it, in the event deadly force is needed.

One cop can't feasibly be ready to use either.

The last Las Vegas SHOT show demoed several less-lethal devices, but I only recall one – the BoloWrap.

Loosely patterned after the bola/bolo, two weighted balls connected via a wire tether are fired at a suspect.

They diverge and the tether strikes the suspect causing the balls to wrap the wire around the arms and body or the legs.

It's been used successfully in the field but is a little ungainly to carry, so it's applications are limited.

There's more out there that I don't know about.

Years ago, some company developed a Taser-type round that was fired from a shotgun, extending the range at which someone could be stunned.

I don't know of any department that actually used them.

The ultimate problem there are few non-lethal alternatives, as just about anything can cause injury or death under unique circumstances.

And few are 100% effective, 100% of the time.

A lot of departments issued stun guns for awhile, but not so much these days.

Not always effective and they require contact with the suspect, and that's a bad combination.

I personally don't know of any new gear on the horizon, especially something that can be used by a solo cop who comes up on some crime in progress.





Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody matters or nobody matters.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: Columbus Cop Shoots/Kills 16-Yr-Old Black Girl Who Had A Knife
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: April 22, 2021 07:20AM
I think the problem is not that he shot a woman with a knife who was lunging at another woman.

I think the problem is that he shot her four times.



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Re: Columbus Cop Shoots/Kills 16-Yr-Old Black Girl Who Had A Knife
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: April 22, 2021 07:37AM
I'll wait for the independent investigation. Nothing police depts say in the early days after they kill a person or color is trustworthy. There may not be criminal charges, but wait to see if the city pays out a wrongful death settlement.

Thank God for journalists and their new way of reporting these events. No more just a accepting the police version and moving on.
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Re: Columbus Cop Shoots/Kills 16-Yr-Old Black Girl Who Had A Knife
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: April 22, 2021 07:47AM
Quote
Lemon Drop
Thank God for journalists and their new way of reporting these events. No more just a accepting the police version and moving on.

And thank George Holliday.
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Re: Columbus Cop Shoots/Kills 16-Yr-Old Black Girl Who Had A Knife
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: April 22, 2021 08:39AM
I think the problem is that he shot her four times.


A sentiment shared by a lot of people who've never had to intervene to save someone's life.

He could have fired once checked to see if that was enough to stop the attacker.

Looking at the video, she was still within striking distance of the intended victim.

So fire twice, and wait and see?

And in the interim, a girl is stabbed, maybe fatally, maybe not?

It looks to me like he fired until she dropped the knife.

You can see the attacker raise the knife above her head in an apparent attempt to stab that second girl.

His duty first and foremost was to prevent the girl in pink from getting stabbed and he fired until she was down and no longer a threat.

It will be debated whether or not four shots were necessary, and if the cop even saved anybody's life.

Given what I see on the video, and the time frame involved, I see no wrongdoing on the officer's part.





Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody matters or nobody matters.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: Columbus Cop Shoots/Kills 16-Yr-Old Black Girl Who Had A Knife
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: April 22, 2021 09:00AM
Quote
DeusxMac
Quote
Lemon Drop
Thank God for journalists and their new way of reporting these events. No more just a accepting the police version and moving on.

And thank George Holliday.

Yes, though it's a tragedy how little progress we have made since them.

Black Americans have patience that exceeds my imagination.
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Re: Columbus Cop Shoots/Kills 16-Yr-Old Black Girl Who Had A Knife
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: April 22, 2021 09:22AM
Quote
RAMd®d
Given what I see on the video, and the time frame involved, I see no wrongdoing legal liability on the officer's part.

FTFY



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Re: Columbus Cop Shoots/Kills 16-Yr-Old Black Girl Who Had A Knife
Posted by: deckeda
Date: April 22, 2021 11:19AM
Easy prediction: It’ll be proposed to shoot fewer bullets and risk the assumed victim (person not holding knife etc) be hurt or yes, possibly killed as a result. You’re then trading a likely probability for a maybe, which yes are better odds if the goal is have LESS people dead in the aggregate. If we ignore that we equate one deadly weapon’s effectiveness with another’s which is a simple lie.

We know the dead girl was an aggressor. We’re assuming she was the only aggressor who needed to be stopped. That’s a problem worth pausing a moment for, even if the other girl gets slashed in the process. Fairness involves not only the who but the why. Bottom line: If there’s no time to consider, and only time to kill, then killing is what results will look like. More and more, people are saying that is unacceptable.

What I’m not OK with is assuming as little as just one bullet would have no meaningful effect on a knife wielder. That is a stance that overall won’t be supported by recognition of what the two weapons do. Guarantees are not the point. Likely outcomes remain worthy of discussion.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/2021 11:22AM by deckeda.
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Re: Columbus Cop Shoots/Kills 16-Yr-Old Black Girl Who Had A Knife
Posted by: AllGold
Date: April 22, 2021 03:33PM
Police are trained to double tap. Stress and adrenaline could easily lead to a double-double tap.



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Re: Columbus Cop Shoots/Kills 16-Yr-Old Black Girl Who Had A Knife
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: April 22, 2021 03:48PM
Quote
deckeda
Easy prediction: It’ll be proposed to shoot fewer bullets and risk the assumed victim (person not holding knife etc) be hurt or yes, possibly killed as a result. You’re then trading a likely probability for a maybe, which yes are better odds if the goal is have LESS people dead in the aggregate. If we ignore that we equate one deadly weapon’s effectiveness with another’s which is a simple lie.

...

What I’m not OK with is assuming as little as just one bullet would have no meaningful effect on a knife wielder. That is a stance that overall won’t be supported by recognition of what the two weapons do. Guarantees are not the point. Likely outcomes remain worthy of discussion.

Quote
AllGold
Police are trained to double tap. Stress and adrenaline could easily lead to a double-double tap.

The fix is to ensure that cops use guns that have heavy trigger pulls so that it takes some deliberate intent to empty the whole clip into every perp.



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Re: Columbus Cop Shoots/Kills 16-Yr-Old Black Girl Who Had A Knife
Posted by: Speedy
Date: April 22, 2021 05:34PM
With all those people around, good that the cop hit only the intended target.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Columbus Cop Shoots/Kills 16-Yr-Old Black Girl Who Had A Knife
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: April 22, 2021 05:42PM
How does anyone know she was holding a knife? That's the police version. The video is blurry.

How do you know she was not defending herself from the adults who were there with her? ( they weren't other teen girls according to witnesses.

The girl was in foster care.
Was she being abused?

The mayor of Columbus sounded nervous after more video and witness testimony came out.


What on earth are "experts" doing exonerating the cops with NO investigation and so few facts?

It's not just cops who need to slow it down.
It is just way to soon to draw firm conclusions here.
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Re: Columbus Cop Shoots/Kills 16-Yr-Old Black Girl Who Had A Knife
Posted by: Speedy
Date: April 22, 2021 07:51PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
How does anyone know she was holding a knife? That's the police version. The video is blurry.

Not too blurry to see it’s a knife.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Columbus Cop Shoots/Kills 16-Yr-Old Black Girl Who Had A Knife
Posted by: graylocks
Date: April 22, 2021 08:38PM
Quote
Speedy
Quote
Lemon Drop
How does anyone know she was holding a knife? That's the police version. The video is blurry.

Not too blurry to see it’s a knife.

very clearly saw a knife and what she was trying to do with it.



"Success isn't about how much money you make. It is about the difference you make in people's lives."--Michelle Obama
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Re: Columbus Cop Shoots/Kills 16-Yr-Old Black Girl Who Had A Knife
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: April 22, 2021 09:45PM
How does anyone know she was holding a knife?

It's very clearly displayed several time in the video.


How do you know she was not defending herself from the adults who were there with her


The video shows the suspect attacking one of the girls from behind.

There is no indication I can see that the first victim was stabbed.

After she knocks the girl down, and as the adult is kicking that girl while she's down, the suspect charges the girl in pink, who had been walking quite casually.

After the cop yells at the suspect to get down, the knife is plainly seen in her hand raised above to the overhand position as the cop fires.

There is no element of self-defense in the suspect's actions as seen in the video.

The cop did what needed to be done in that specific circumstance.

What the video doesn't tell us is why the suspect attacked the two girls.

It also doesn't tell us how the situation got to the point of police being called about a potential stabbing, with adults just casually standing around.

It doesn't tell us who called the police.

And it doesn't tell us why that adult kicked one of the victims.

The investigation is ongoing, and I hope that it answers the above questions.

But the chain of events depicted in the video seem quite clear.





Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody matters or nobody matters.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: Columbus Cop Shoots/Kills 16-Yr-Old Black Girl Who Had A Knife
Posted by: Blankity Blank
Date: April 22, 2021 09:47PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
How does anyone know she was holding a knife? That's the police version. The video is blurry.

The latest, at the moment, from released video.








National Suicide Prevention Hotline tel:1-800-273-8255

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
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Re: Columbus Cop Shoots/Kills 16-Yr-Old Black Girl Who Had A Knife
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: April 23, 2021 09:54AM
The witnesses are in agreement that she had a knife. The foster mother, who was not home at the time, has described the argument over housekeeping that she says led up to the aggressive behavior:

[www.cnn.com]

The witnesses are not at all in agreement that the only good solution here was to shoot and kill this girl.

The officer who fired the shots has been on the force 16 months.

These events have to be opportunities to get better at de-escalating violence. A lot of people failed this deceased young lady.
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Re: Columbus Cop Shoots/Kills 16-Yr-Old Black Girl Who Had A Knife
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: April 24, 2021 05:42AM
The witnesses are in agreement that she had a knife.


Wholly irrelevant.

She did have a knife and there is physical evidence of that, witness testimony or not.

The officer saw the threat and took appropriate action.



The witnesses are not at all in agreement that the only good solution here was to shoot and kill this girl.



So what, as if they did anything to mitigate the situation before the police were called.

No, it wasn't a good solution, but as the video shows, it was the only solution which realistically could have prevented a worse outcome for the second girl.

Do they or you have any viable suggestions that would have prevented her death while simultaneously preventing the girl in pink from being stabbed, and are you willing to bet her life on that?


The foster mother, who was not home at the time, has described the argument over housekeeping that she says led up to the aggressive behavior:


While knowing some background is interesting, it doesn't make this a '16yo girl killed by police over dirty laundry' issue and is irrelevant to the officer's response.

She was an active threat with a deadly weapon.

Not that it matters, but do you think either of the two victims were in fear for their lives?

Or do you think the suspect was 'just playin'?



The officer who fired the shots has been on the force 16 months.

And performed admirably, doing a thankless job in a lose-lose situation, preventing one if not two injuries or deaths.



These events have to be opportunities to get better at de-escalating violence.


This event shows that deescalation had/has to begin long before the police were called.

That officer only had time to say 'what's going on' before the threats materialized.

At what point could what deescalation tools have been utilized between the time of the officer arriving and his stopping the attack?

While not a deescalation, a Taser is a less-lethal tool that is a poor choice against a deadly weapon.

If both probes don't strike the suspect properly, or if it doesn't immediately stop the suspect, he/she is still a threat to a victim.

Not to mention, I'm not even sure that department has Tasers.



A lot of people failed this deceased young lady.


Ain't that a kick in the head.

The suspect deserved better than whatever led up to her becoming an active threat.

But then she crossed a line.





Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody matters or nobody matters.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: Columbus Cop Shoots/Kills 16-Yr-Old Black Girl Who Had A Knife
Posted by: deckeda
Date: April 24, 2021 11:29AM
It’s not admirable to kill a child, sorry. At best it’s the easy out. This fascination with certainty and guaranteed but narrow outcomes isn’t enforcement, it’s artificial justification based on pre-determined criteria, NOT situational criteria.

The other day cops killed a dude when they came to his house to arrest him on an outstanding warrant. He decided to get into his car and drive away. 14 shell casings later he’s dead. The fact that he was unarmed didn’t matter because the cops said his situation was pre-determined risk based on their training. Their training apparently does not include imminent threat, but assumed threat. Nothing situational, nothing “in the moment, how could they know” about it!

These guys are not making split-second decisions under hyper stressful conditions. That’s a myth and a lie. They see X, they do Y and to hell with the circumstances. It’s all in a training book somewhere. Probably a video.

Quote
RAMd®d

While not a deescalation, a Taser is a less-lethal tool that is a poor choice against a deadly weapon.

If both probes don't strike the suspect properly, or if it doesn't immediately stop the suspect, he/she is still a threat to a victim.

Not to mention, I'm not even sure that department has Tasers.

Anything else, while we’re speculating?

I wasn’t aware tasers at close range were unreliable enough to not even be worth a try. She looked like she had plenty of area and thin clothing for taser probes to find purchase, no? I’d be shocked (no pun intended) that someone would still have both the strength and coordination after such an encounter. Anything that stops someone, even if it’s just a shoulder tap, remains perfectly capable against a lethal weapon, right? Then again, bullets can also miss. Maybe that’s why 4 is better than just one? Still no reply to that.
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Re: Columbus Cop Shoots/Kills 16-Yr-Old Black Girl Who Had A Knife
Posted by: graylocks
Date: April 24, 2021 12:19PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
A lot of people failed this deceased young lady.

That I completely agree with. Her Village was missing in action.



"Success isn't about how much money you make. It is about the difference you make in people's lives."--Michelle Obama
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Re: Columbus Cop Shoots/Kills 16-Yr-Old Black Girl Who Had A Knife
Posted by: macphanatic
Date: April 24, 2021 01:19PM
Quote
CW2V
Quote
Lemon Drop
Quote
CW2V
...On June 10, 1983, Buck arrived at the house Tracey was staying at and demanded to see her. Tracey remained inside and contacted the police. Fifteen minutes later, with no officer in sight, Tracey exited the h....

CW2V

I am not certain what point you hope to make, but the tragic story you shared is typical of how police handled domestic violence against women and children until fairly recently. Tracey was lucky the officer came over at all.

While in this case the officer was obviously completely ineffective, that does not mean that jumping in with no thought or assessment is best. Police need to slow down and de-escalate situations. Too frequently THEY are the ones who introduce violence and urgency into situations, with sometimes tragic results.

The point was that the officer saw the young woman with a knife attacking another. It only takes a second for a knife to end a life in the right spot. The officer had a spit second to make a decision. He was not in danger. Another was. If he "Shot for the legs or in the air" a knife in the neck could've been the next thing to happen. Then what? There's too much gray here.

CW2V

Exactly! There was a famous court case years ago involving a store owner that shot and killed a robber with a bare blade. His defense attorney proved by demonstration in court that an old, overweight man could close a distance of 7 yards with a bare blade before the average person could unholster a gun and shoot.

The idea of shooting someone in the leg is hogwash. Great in theory but not reality. Plus, there were too many innocent people in the area. The officer had to shoot for center of mass.

There are bad cops. But, there are many more good cops who have no desire to hurt or harass people. However, politicians and the news are judging all of them without all the facts or true understanding of the situation that officers face everyday.
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Re: Columbus Cop Shoots/Kills 16-Yr-Old Black Girl Who Had A Knife
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: April 25, 2021 12:15AM
It’s not admirable to kill a child, sorry. At best it’s the easy out. This fascination with certainty and guaranteed but narrow outcomes isn’t enforcement, it’s artificial justification based on pre-determined criteria, NOT situational criteria.


What a crock of BS.

You should be apologizing for deliberately mischaracterizing what I said to suit your agenda.

The officer did perform admirably.

As tragic as the suspect's death was, he prevented more tragedy.

That was abundantly clear in the video.

An easy out?

You presume much.



The other day cops killed a dude when they came to his house to arrest him on an outstanding warrant.

Not the same thing.



Anything else, while we’re speculating?


You said:

Folks like to play what-if. OK, I can do that. What if the best outcome was for the "truly innocent" (girl in pink about to probably get stabbed, right?) was to suffer a knife wound, possibly fatal, and that our victim here suffered I don't know, one, maybe 2 shots at most, possibly fatal?

The victim's safety and well being is something something you're willing to sacrifice on your speculation that two less shots might not have killed the attacker?

Maybe you'd like to run that by the parents of the "truly innocent" victim.

What's up with the quotation marks by the way?

I didn't say "truly" so you weren't quoting me.

Are you speculating she wasn't "truly innocent"?

I ask because quotation marks are used to denote a direct quote or imply some other meaning to a word or phrase, referred to as using scare quotes.



I wasn’t aware tasers at close range were unreliable enough to not even be worth a try. She looked like she had plenty of area and thin clothing for taser probes...


Certainly unreliable enough to use on a suspect who is wielding a deadly weapon.

Time and distance dictate what's "worth a try".

My observation is there would only be one chance, no do-overs if it didn't work.

If your strategy didn't work, what then?

What do you tell the family of the victim?

'Sorry, I was trying to safe the life of the attacker and thought I could pull it off'?



I’d be shocked (no pun intended) that someone would still have both the strength and coordination after such an encounter.


But you'd be more informed.

A web search would show that Tasers are fairly reliable, but don't alway do what's expected, and that gives one pause.

Time and distance are very key elements, as well as the specific circumstances of deployment.


Anything that stops someone, even if it’s just a shoulder tap, remains perfectly capable against a lethal weapon, right?


Maybe you should have been in the Berwyn grocery store, as you could have stopped the whole thing with a shoulder tap?



Maybe that’s why 4 is better than just one? Still no reply to that.


He fired until the threat against the victim was stopped.

He didn't fire 6, 8, or 10 times, he didn't empty the magazine.

The girl went down, dropping the knife shortly after.

Given time and distance, the officer could have fired as department training dictates, and fired again if necessary.

I say given the time and distance involved in this shooting, that wasn't an option, certainly not at the risk to the victim.

One last speculation on my part– a failure to prevent injury or death to a victim targeted by an attacker with a deadly weapon would have left the officer just as responsible as he would be for an unlawful use of force against an attacker.





Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody matters or nobody matters.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: Columbus Cop Shoots/Kills 16-Yr-Old Black Girl Who Had A Knife
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: April 25, 2021 09:00AM
Many questions here for an independent investigation.

12 minutes elapsed between the first 911 call and the arrival of the officer who fired his weapon .Somebody was making a second call when he rolled up but hung up before giving any info.

During that 12 minutes and whatever happened before, Ma'Khia did not injure anyone, it's not known if anyone was assaulting or threatening her. Nobody had been injured. It is not yet clear who made calls.

5 other people were present, men and women all older than Ma'Khia, before the officer arrived. Why did these people not leave and run if they thought she was going to injure or kill them? They had plenty of time.

At least one of them yelled in disbelief that the officer shot her 10 seconds after he opened his car door.


Lots of questions.
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Re: Columbus Cop Shoots/Kills 16-Yr-Old Black Girl Who Had A Knife
Posted by: Blankity Blank
Date: April 25, 2021 01:56PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
Many questions here for an independent investigation.

12 minutes elapsed between the first 911 call and the arrival of the officer who fired his weapon .Somebody was making a second call when he rolled up but hung up before giving any info.

During that 12 minutes and whatever happened before, Ma'Khia did not injure anyone, it's not known if anyone was assaulting or threatening her. Nobody had been injured. It is not yet clear who made calls.

5 other people were present, men and women all older than Ma'Khia, before the officer arrived. Why did these people not leave and run if they thought she was going to injure or kill them? They had plenty of time.

At least one of them yelled in disbelief that the officer shot her 10 seconds after he opened his car door.




This situation badly calls for a step back and a deep breath.

I look at these pictures and watch the video, and so far only come away with questions about tragedy.
  • Ma’Khia is clearly welding a knife and shows every intent of harming the other young lady.
  • Yes, she might have stopped for some impossible to guess reason, but she’s fractions of a second away from stabbing this young lady. Whose life do you gamble with in that sliver of time, the attacker’s or the victim’s?
  • As much as the precursors to this moment will tell a larger story, in that moment of decision, those details are as far away as Mars as one person stands ready to injure or snuff out the life of another.
  • Some of the bystanders are simply being bystanders being bystanders. But more to the point of why didn’t they run away (presumably because they themselves weren’t being threatened), was there no one there close enough in Ma’Khia‘s life to step forward and try and reach her, even a little, in her fury? The only action recorded being cowardly addition to the chaos.



National Suicide Prevention Hotline tel:1-800-273-8255

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
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Re: Columbus Cop Shoots/Kills 16-Yr-Old Black Girl Who Had A Knife
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: April 25, 2021 06:30PM
Quote
Blankity Blank

Thanks for the comments and opinions. The questions I have can be addressed in an investigation. They are not answerable by anyone here.
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