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Time to give up... thanks freedumbers
Posted by: Sam3
Date: May 04, 2021 07:55AM
Looks like medical and scientific experts are pulling the plug on eradicating sars-cov-2. Time to allow it to continue killing some people and long-coviding others.

[www.nytimes.com]

Yes, I'm disappointed in our society, the antivaxxers, antimaskers and freedumbers have won.

Quote
New York Times
If communities maintain vigilant testing and tracking, it may be possible to bring the number of new cases so low that health officials can identify any new introduction of the virus and immediately stifle a potential outbreak, said Bary Pradelski, an economist at the National Center for Scientific Research in Grenoble, France.

With hard-core reactionary Republicans in charge, creating executive orders that bar local municipalities from enacting restrictions, like Florida's Ron DeSantis, we will never be able to do what the above mentioned economist stated.





The arts are not luxuries but assets that give way more than they cost.
--Ronald Tucker on YouTube

A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it is not open.
--Frank Zappa
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Re: Time to give up... thanks freedumbers
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: May 04, 2021 08:07AM
The fast mutation of this disease puts us all at needing an annual injection. It expect it will be combined with the influenza vaccination, like H1N1.
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Re: Time to give up... thanks freedumbers
Posted by: space-time
Date: May 04, 2021 08:12AM
So we'll have a single vaccine for Influenza, H1N1, Covid, and when do they make one to protect against republicans?
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Re: Time to give up... thanks freedumbers
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: May 04, 2021 08:35AM
Quote
space-time
So we'll have a single vaccine for Influenza, H1N1, Covid, and when do they make one to protect against republicans?

There is already an injection for that... .357 or the Metric variant - 9mm



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.”
-- François de La Rochefoucauld

Growing older is mandatory. Growing up is optional.
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Re: Time to give up... thanks freedumbers
Posted by: neophyte
Date: May 04, 2021 08:48AM
A combined, single flu/Covid19 vaccine shot requires one bio/pharmtech firm to manufacture and package both vaccines in a single vial. Back in 2018, Pfizer invested in BioNtech to develop the latters' influenza mRNA vaccine, but I have not read anything about them going through the regulatory process to get it approved for use. The Covid19 mRNA vaccine was fast tracked for approval, so maybe with the success of this "proof of concept" vaccine, Pfizer/BioNtech will finally seek and get approval for an mRNA influenza vaccine and will package it with their Cov19 vaccine.
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Re: Time to give up... thanks freedumbers
Posted by: pdq
Date: May 04, 2021 09:41AM
So, it looks like Covid may turn out to be a long-simmering viral disease that will tend to preferentially infect nut job conservatives and conspiracy-imagining anti-vaxxers.

Certainly not my ideal outcome, but karmic in a way.
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Re: Time to give up... thanks freedumbers
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: May 04, 2021 11:29AM
Don't give up no matter where you live. People can be convinced to get vaccinated if they get facts from someone they trust.

We just started the roll out in December and it's only early May. I'm astounded that we even have an effective vaccine, much less that many millions of people are already fully vaccinated.
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Re: Time to give up... thanks freedumbers
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: May 04, 2021 12:39PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
Don't give up no matter where you live. People can be convinced to get vaccinated if they get facts from someone they trust. ...
I've done some evangelizing for the vaccine to some coworkers in conversations. I use the line "I had COVID, it was terrible and I was afraid I was going to die. I had the vaccine, it was briefly annoying. Get vaccinated."
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Re: Time to give up... thanks freedumbers
Posted by: PeterB
Date: May 04, 2021 12:39PM
The problem is -- amongst other things --

I just had a dental appointment this AM, and when I brought up the subject of masking and vaccines, the dental assistant felt comfortable telling me about how she had all sorts of severe medical issues after getting the shot -- that it triggered a severe autoimmune reaction, lung and heart problems, etc. ... and that speaking with her "friends", they were all convinced that the whole corona thing is just all a big hoax, and that the vaccine is causing far worse problems than anything from the disease.

While I couldn't contradict anything she was saying (her experience is her experience, for all I know, she did get severe side-effects from the vaccine), the basic problem here is that for some people, their first-hand experience and opinions will always trump any science (pardon the pun). In other words, "Uncle Bobby done told me that shot caused his hemorrhoids to blow up! Vaccines are the Devil's work! Damn guvmint!"

I am still marveling at the fact that so many people have benefited from the science, yet are not giving the science ANY credit for that fact.

We need to take a long, hard look at what is fueling the behavior, and how to convince people out of it: [www.texasmonthly.com]




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/04/2021 12:42PM by PeterB.
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Re: Time to give up... thanks freedumbers
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: May 04, 2021 02:51PM
I would find a different dentist.
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Re: Time to give up... thanks freedumbers
Posted by: AllGold
Date: May 04, 2021 03:01PM
Quote
PeterB
the dental assistant felt comfortable telling me about how she had all sorts of severe medical issues after getting the shot -- that it triggered a severe autoimmune reaction, lung and heart problems, etc. ...

Riiiiiiiiiiiight.

I have read all sorts of scientific papers documenting those kinds of problems... NOT.



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Re: Time to give up... thanks freedumbers
Posted by: PeterB
Date: May 04, 2021 03:05PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
I would find a different dentist.

I don't fault the dentist for the assistant (she's actually a pretty awesome dentist, regardless of her assistant's views).

Unfortunately, this is a pretty red state, even if the city is very blue. (Remember that article I posted, where only about a third of the city is fully vaccinated, and of the remaining 2/3rds, about 40% of them say they won't be getting vaccinated at all.)

I just told this story as an example of the mindset that all of us are facing. (If I were to go to the local barbershop here, it would be 3000x worse.)




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: Time to give up... thanks freedumbers
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: May 04, 2021 03:18PM
Quote
PeterB
Quote
Lemon Drop
I would find a different dentist.

I don't fault the dentist for the assistant (she's actually a pretty awesome dentist, regardless of her assistant's views).

Unfortunately, this is a pretty red state, even if the city is very blue. (Remember that article I posted, where only about a third of the city is fully vaccinated, and of the remaining 2/3rds, about 40% of them say they won't be getting vaccinated at all.)

I just told this story as an example of the mindset that all of us are facing. (If I were to go to the local barbershop here, it would be 3000x worse.)

Just to be blunt, I would not purchase health services from anyone that far removed from very basic scientific critical thinking. Is she that gullible and conspiratorial about dental issues too?

I would report that conversation to the dentist at least, she is likely chasing away patients with her BS.

I live in a very very red area and health providers do not act like that. If they do I am out of there. It's unprofessional at best.

I have convinced several Trump thumpers with low education to get the vaccine. They just needed rational info and an appeal to caring about their family and community. It can be done.
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Re: Time to give up... thanks freedumbers
Posted by: PeterB
Date: May 04, 2021 04:14PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
Quote
PeterB
Quote
Lemon Drop
I would find a different dentist.

I don't fault the dentist for the assistant (she's actually a pretty awesome dentist, regardless of her assistant's views).

Unfortunately, this is a pretty red state, even if the city is very blue. (Remember that article I posted, where only about a third of the city is fully vaccinated, and of the remaining 2/3rds, about 40% of them say they won't be getting vaccinated at all.)

I just told this story as an example of the mindset that all of us are facing. (If I were to go to the local barbershop here, it would be 3000x worse.)

Just to be blunt, I would not purchase health services from anyone that far removed from very basic scientific critical thinking. Is she that gullible and conspiratorial about dental issues too?

I would report that conversation to the dentist at least, she is likely chasing away patients with her BS.

I live in a very very red area and health providers do not act like that. If they do I am out of there. It's unprofessional at best.

I have convinced several Trump thumpers with low education to get the vaccine. They just needed rational info and an appeal to caring about their family and community. It can be done.

Again, I think you're confusing the assistant with the dentist. I think it can actually be very hard for dentists to find good (from a skillset perspective) assistants. My dentist herself, is very good and knowledgeable -- at least about dentistry. I didn't ask her for her opinions on the virus.

Also, I do tend to separate the person's skillset from their political beliefs ... that's kind of a necessity for me down here. For example, at one point I had an excellent dental hygienist, but she was about as red as they come -- I learned not to get into any political discussions with her. And my barber ... that's a whole different world. Sitting in the barber's chair, I have to pretty much hold my nose / hold my tongue while I'm there. One could argue that you shouldn't patronize a place of business with people working there who hold wholly different political opinions than you, but that would make it very hard for me to do virtually anything down here, as it is pretty red (despite NOLA being a dot of blue). NOLA is also rife with incompetence and unprofessionalism (of all political colors), so again it's something to which I've had to adjust. I also do see a point of hearing the other side of things, just to make some sort of attempt to understand where they're coming from, even if I completely disagree with it.

I also don't see the point of reporting it to the dentist ... I'm pretty sure she overheard part of the conversation anyway. I didn't really know the assistant at all, so I didn't feel it was worth my time and hers to try to convince her to my way of thinking.

Again, I relayed this whole story just as an illustration of what all of us are facing. It sounds very similar to the Texasmonthly article I posted above... what's needed is for folks who WERE anti-vaxxers to convince their friends/colleagues, and as you can see from the article, that's not the easiest thing in the world to do.




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: Time to give up... thanks freedumbers
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: May 04, 2021 04:29PM
I thought we were talking about a dental hygienist but maybe not. They are licensed health care professionals and should not be spouting nonsense any more than the dentist would not do that. I hope.

If this is just an office assistant then...never mind!
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Re: Time to give up... thanks freedumbers
Posted by: PeterB
Date: May 04, 2021 06:02PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
I thought we were talking about a dental hygienist but maybe not. They are licensed health care professionals and should not be spouting nonsense any more than the dentist would not do that. I hope.

If this is just an office assistant then...never mind!

It was the dentist's assistant -- who is not a hygienist, but also not an office worker. In general, the staff in my dentist's office (the administrative assistants, etc.) are quite awesome, so I took this one person to be a bit of an aberration. On the other hand, I'm sure my dentist overheard some of what she (the assistant) said to me, so if she found any of it objectionable, I would think she would say something to the assistant.

I did also have a hygienist who worked at that same practice who was an absolutely fantastic hygienist, but who I found to be (unfortunately) also racist, and I ignored it for the sake of her skill -- I also didn't feel especially comfortable confronting her about it. That hygienist is no longer working there, but I don't think it was because of her racist views. Unfortunately, that kind of thing is very common down here... one only needs to read some of the comments on social media posted in response to any news reports that involve race issues, the Confederate monuments, etc., and you'd see what I mean. (The thing that's been coming up a lot down here recently is the renaming of streets, removal of monuments, etc.)




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: Time to give up... thanks freedumbers
Posted by: kj
Date: May 04, 2021 06:21PM
I think there are a lot of things about the response to covid that are debatable, so I have a hard time saying anyone has to have exactly my thoughts in order for me to interact with them. My Urologist was super frustrated with the response because his thought was that the negative consequences of our response might be as bad as doing nothing. He seemed good with doing low cost stuff like wearing masks, so I decided he is reasonable, even though I don't completely agree.

I actually just found out the other day that our city was requiring mask wearing outside under all circumstances. I think that was ridiculous. On my mountain bike rides and trail runs, I took a mask, but only wore it as I passed people etc. I'm not going to feel too bad about that, honestly, even though I wasn't taking the experts' seriously enough for some.

Dental Hygienists aren't required to have nearly the education they used to, from what I understand, so I don't expect them to be as well rounded educationally as they used to be, and they definitely aren't. But they all clean my teeth fine. I've had many who are startlingly opinionated, but I don't remember anyone telling me I never have to hear anything I don't like, so not a big deal, to me.

The lady that cut my hair (yes, literally one) quit because she was required to use a mask. Very nice, smart, educated lady, but wacko on that issue. I can't get too peeved, as everyone's got their thing. As soon as you completely disengage with someone, you have no influence whatsoever.
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Re: Time to give up... thanks freedumbers
Posted by: Janit
Date: May 04, 2021 06:52PM
Without the inflections of a spoken conversation, I am not entirely sure what position the assistant was taking.

Did she regret taking the vaccine and advocate against it, or was she complaining about her personal experience. Was she reporting the position of her friends with approval, or with distaste?

Oy, four years of Trump have made me into a compulsive fact-checker.
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Re: Time to give up... thanks freedumbers
Posted by: PeterB
Date: May 04, 2021 07:40PM
Quote
Janit
Without the inflections of a spoken conversation, I am not entirely sure what position the assistant was taking.

Did she regret taking the vaccine and advocate against it, or was she complaining about her personal experience. Was she reporting the position of her friends with approval, or with distaste?

Oy, four years of Trump have made me into a compulsive fact-checker.

The assistant was taking the positions that:

1) The vaccination caused her severe health problems, including (as I understood it) an autoimmune reaction (when she said she has no history of autoimmune diseases in her family), breathing/lung problems, and heart problems (I think she mentioned fluid around the heart, which I took to mean either pericarditis or a pericardial effusion). She specifically mentioned that they thought she might have had lupus, but she tested negative. Apparently these health issues were serious enough to lead to her being hospitalized, though I wasn't 100% clear on that.

2) In large part due to #1, she blames the vaccine. She was complaining both about her personal experience and using this largely as a justification against getting vaccinated. She didn't specifically say that she regretted taking the vaccine, but that was definitely the impression I was getting.

3) In large part due to #2, she apparently communicated with "friends" who, like her, were all of the opinion that the vaccination is worse than what it is designed to treat. I got the impression that these "friends" all apparently feel that corona is a hoax. She was reporting this with approval, was my impression.

Those're the facts, as I understood them.




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: Time to give up... thanks freedumbers
Posted by: $tevie
Date: May 04, 2021 08:42PM
Well, despite your tolerance and understanding, if that woman has any possibility of touching you and most especially your mouth, I would find a new dentist. Or make it clear you won't come in unless she is kept away from you. I wouldn't want someone who doesn't believe in science to be in intimate contact with me. Who knows what other scientific ideas she ignores?



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Re: Time to give up... thanks freedumbers
Posted by: PeterB
Date: May 04, 2021 08:59PM
Quote
$tevie
Well, despite your tolerance and understanding, if that woman has any possibility of touching you and most especially your mouth, I would find a new dentist. Or make it clear you won't come in unless she is kept away from you. I wouldn't want someone who doesn't believe in science to be in intimate contact with me. Who knows what other scientific ideas she ignores?

The assistant wasn't really doing that much, I noticed, other than passing instruments to the dentist and occasionally passing a UV light into my mouth (I was getting composite fillings which require UV curing).

And as for her not believing in science, I found it interesting because she obviously had been vaccinated; and yet she obviously regretted getting it, as she thinks it has caused her illnesses (I have no way of knowing if this is true or not, but I'd think it unlikely she made the whole thing up).

So... there may be vaccine hesitancy, legitimate or not, based on some subset of folks who are having serious negative reactions to the vaccine. I don't think all of us should dismiss that quite so quickly. First, because we shouldn't assume that someone else's experience isn't legitimate. Second, because the hearing of these kinds of reactions may be driving fears -- rational or not -- leading to people choosing not to get vaccinated. It affects all of us, since if people choose not to get vaccinated, that's a serious problem.




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/04/2021 09:00PM by PeterB.
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