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Todler gun rampage continues
Posted by: RgrF
Date: May 12, 2021 09:12PM
WEST BATH, Maine (AP)
A 2-year-old boy in Maine shot and wounded his parents Wednesday after discovering a handgun on a nightstand, police said.
The 22-year-old mother suffered a leg wound, the 25-year-old father suffered a minor head wound, and the boy was injured by the recoil of the weapon, Sagadahoc County Sheriff Joel Merry said. All three went to the hospital.

“This situation, while disturbing, could have had an even more tragic ending. We are thankful that the injuries were not more serious,” Merry said.

The incident remains under investigation by the sheriff’s department and the district attorney, Merry said.
A 3-week-old who was in the room was turned over to his grandmother who lives there, but wasn’t home at the time of the shooting, officials said.
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Re: Todler gun rampage continues
Posted by: Speedy
Date: May 12, 2021 10:15PM
Obviously West Bath, Maine is a high crime area and citizens need to be armed even if it means your two year old plugs you.

BTW, I love that he shot both his parents.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Todler gun rampage continues
Posted by: mrbill62
Date: May 13, 2021 01:03AM
Negligent parents.

Too bad there can't be background checks before people have children.
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Re: Todler gun rampage continues
Posted by: Speedy
Date: May 13, 2021 02:35AM
Quote
mrbill62
Negligent parents.

Too bad there can't be background checks before people have children.

Negligent gunners. Other than that, they could be great parents.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Todler gun rampage continues
Posted by: Lux Interior
Date: May 13, 2021 06:27AM
It's a small price to pay for the security offered by a loaded weapon close at hand, unencumbered by liberal gun safes and trigger locks.

It's really the parent's fault for not taking their newborns & toddlers to the range and teaching them proper technique and safety precautions.

I mean, guns are stopping 250 billion crimes a day, or something.

The accidents are just statistically insignificant.
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Re: Todler gun rampage continues
Posted by: S. Pupp
Date: May 13, 2021 07:04AM
Gotta protect themselves against Biden, who is going to come into their houses and take away their guns.
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Re: Todler gun rampage continues
Posted by: pdq
Date: May 13, 2021 08:38AM
This is what I was saying the other day. It’s one thing to claim “responsible gun owners” keep the gun locked up, or trigger locked, and unloaded, with ammunition locked up elsewhere...and quite another thing to recognize there are people who keep that handgun, loaded, at their bedside.

Having not made a proper study of such things, I don’t know what the proportion of each group is, but my bias is that there are many handgun owners that do just that.

Once when I was staying at my son’s house and he let the wife and I sleep in his larger bed, I noted that he had a baseball bat under his side of the bed. Frankly seems more sensible to me than a gun (with a plan of shooting in the dark if startled from sleep).
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Re: Todler gun rampage continues
Posted by: Janit
Date: May 13, 2021 09:25AM
Gotta protect from those rampaging moose and bears.
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Re: Todler gun rampage continues
Posted by: mrbill62
Date: May 13, 2021 09:36AM
Yes, negligent parents. Free gun locks are available through Project Child Safe, who also provides information on firearm safety.
Project Child Safe
and specifically for parents:
For parents & gun owners


Responsible parenting includes making the house safe for your children.

Do/did you:
keep household cleaners, chemicals, etc away from your children?
gates at the top of stairs to prevent falls?
locked gates at swimming pools (drownings one of top causes of death)?
covers for electrical outlets?
handles of pots/pans turned inward from stoves?
cords for blinds secured?
appliance cords positioned to prevent child from pulling appliance down?
teach hand washing?
use car seats?
CDC - Information on Safety in the Home & Community for Parents with Infants & Toddlers (Ages 0-3)
CDC - Information on Safety in the Home & Community for Parents with Children (Ages 4-11)
CDC - Information on Safety in the Home & Community for Parents with Teens (Ages 12-19)

Same applies to a firearm.

Quote

Gotta protect themselves against Biden, who is going to come into their houses and take away their guns.

Biden's advice on home defense will get you arrested.
Joe "Shotgun" Biden
Firing both barrels of a shotgun also leaves you defenseless until you reload. Recoil is significantly more than an AR-15.

Quote

I mean, guns are stopping 250 billion crimes a day, or something.

According to the study ordered by Obama; defensive gun uses occur 500k to 3 million times per year.
Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence - FREE PDF

Quote

This is what I was saying the other day. It’s one thing to claim “responsible gun owners” keep the gun locked up, or trigger locked, and unloaded, with ammunition locked up elsewhere...and quite another thing to recognize there are people who keep that handgun, loaded, at their bedside.

Having not made a proper study of such things, I don’t know what the proportion of each group is, but my bias is that there are many handgun owners that do just that.

Once when I was staying at my son’s house and he let the wife and I sleep in his larger bed, I noted that he had a baseball bat under his side of the bed. Frankly seems more sensible to me than a gun (with a plan of shooting in the dark if startled from sleep).

See responsible parenting above.

There are weapon mounted lights/lasers available.
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Re: Todler gun rampage continues
Posted by: pdq
Date: May 13, 2021 09:42AM
Quote
mrbill62
Yes, negligent parents.

...Same applies to a firearm.

I completely agree. And the most responsible thing you can do as a parent is keep firearms, particularly handguns, out of your household.
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Re: Todler gun rampage continues
Posted by: mrbill62
Date: May 13, 2021 10:00AM
Quote
pdq
Quote
mrbill62
Yes, negligent parents.

...Same applies to a firearm.

I completely agree. And the most responsible thing you can do as a parent is keep firearms, particularly handguns, out of your household.

There we disagree.
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Re: Todler gun rampage continues
Posted by: Lux Interior
Date: May 13, 2021 10:01AM
Quote
mrbill62
Yes, negligent parents. Free gun locks are available through Project Child Safe, who also provides information on firearm safety.

Liberal logic.

Keep a gun for protection, then make it useless.

The home invaders aren't going to wait for me to unlock my Glock.

Locked & loaded is the way to be and what God & the founding fathers intended.
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Re: Todler gun rampage continues
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: May 13, 2021 10:10AM
Mrbill what are your thoughts on permitless carry AKA constitutional carry? All the rage with the NRA folks these days and becoming law many places.

Seems a bit daft to me.
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Re: Todler gun rampage continues
Posted by: mrbill62
Date: May 13, 2021 11:17AM
Quote
Lemon Drop
Mrbill what are your thoughts on permitless carry AKA constitutional carry? All the rage with the NRA folks these days and becoming law many places.

Seems a bit daft to me.

I like it much more than open carry. From the criminals viewpoint, open carry gives them a target to hit first.

WRT Constitutional Carry, IMHO, it puts the citizens on an even footing with criminals. In my state (which also has Constitutional Carry), a concealed carry permit has the added benefit of not having to wait for NICS approval when purchasing a new firearm. I still have to fill out a 4473.
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Re: Todler gun rampage continues
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: May 13, 2021 11:58AM
It’s one thing to claim “responsible gun owners” keep the gun locked up, or trigger locked, and unloaded, with ammunition locked up elsewhere...and quite another thing to recognize there are people who keep that handgun, loaded, at their bedside


Yes, those are two different things.

But who's conflating them to be the same?

Anybody who claims they're a responsible gun owner and then leaves a firearm, loaded or not, where a child or any unauthorized person can get it, is not a responsible gun owner.

A trigger lock is not they only way to secure a loaded firearm against a child's access, and it's not necessary to make it 'useless' to protect a child.



I completely agree. And the most responsible thing you one can do as a [negligent] parent is keep firearms, particularly handguns, out of your their household.


Like red and blue mad hatters, 'responsible' is oft misused by both ends of the gun debate.

Owning a firearm, as with raising a child, bears great responsibility.

There are a lot of reasons some people shouldn't have either.

Those parents should pay a price with a felony conviction and some jail time for negligence and consider themselves lucky on many levels.

All too often, someone says 'they've suffered enough' particularly if the negligent action resulted in the loss of a child's life and the act goes unpunished, as in no accountability levied.



Personally, I'm opposed to 'open carry' and permit-less carry of any form.

I believe in background checks and waiting periods for all manner of firearms.

Obviously, neither or both of those guarantee a significant reduction in crime.

But they are something I live with, without regret.

The general concern among many/most(?) owner's is the above being a slippery slope.

I think the 'not giving an inch' stance is a bad one.

And I don't want to be legislated out of owning any of mine.





Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody matters or nobody matters.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: Todler gun rampage continues
Posted by: mrbill62
Date: May 13, 2021 12:22PM
Quote

A trigger lock is not they only way to secure a loaded firearm against a child's access, and it's not necessary to make it 'useless' to protect a child.

There are bedside biometric and RFID gun safes.
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Re: Todler gun rampage continues
Posted by: Speedy
Date: May 13, 2021 05:30PM
Wouldn’t it be better if only the gunner could fire the weapon based on the gunner’s finger or palm print? When the gunner wants to sell his penis substitute, it would go first to the manufacturer to be reset.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Todler gun rampage continues
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: May 14, 2021 02:18PM
Quote
mrbill62
Quote
Lemon Drop
Mrbill what are your thoughts on permitless carry AKA constitutional carry? All the rage with the NRA folks these days and becoming law many places.

Seems a bit daft to me.

I like it much more than open carry. From the criminals viewpoint, open carry gives them a target to hit first.

WRT Constitutional Carry, IMHO, it puts the citizens on an even footing with criminals. In my state (which also has Constitutional Carry), a concealed carry permit has the added benefit of not having to wait for NICS approval when purchasing a new firearm. I still have to fill out a 4473.



I think you mean that you believe giving anybody who wants one a gun, no questions asked, makes it easier to defend yourself. But if we take some common sense steps to prevent people with bad intentions from getting guns, wouldn't that dramatically reduce any need to defend yourself?

This game of "good guy with a gun" has no winners and to date has only made our country more dangerous. It is well known that having a gun in your home increases the odds that someone who lives there will die or be injured by gunfire.

People who choose to own deadly weapons whose only purpose is to kill or injure should be obligated to prove they will manage that weapon safely and responsibly. It should not be harder to buy beer than an AR-15.

There are basic steps we could take to reduce injury and death in our country, no gun confiscation involved.
Why not just do it?
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Re: Todler gun rampage continues
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: May 14, 2021 04:38PM
They are devices designed solely to damage, to injure, to kill.

The more guns there are, the more guns that can be fired; fired in error, fired in anger, fired in jest, fired in depression, fired in stupidity. And when they are fired, they usually achieve what they were designed for.
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Re: Todler gun rampage continues
Posted by: mrbill62
Date: May 14, 2021 07:00PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
I think you mean that you believe giving anybody who wants one a gun, no questions asked, makes it easier to defend yourself. But if we take some common sense steps to prevent people with bad intentions from getting guns, wouldn't that dramatically reduce any need to defend yourself?

This game of "good guy with a gun" has no winners and to date has only made our country more dangerous. It is well known that having a gun in your home increases the odds that someone who lives there will die or be injured by gunfire.

People who choose to own deadly weapons whose only purpose is to kill or injure should be obligated to prove they will manage that weapon safely and responsibly. It should not be harder to buy beer than an AR-15.

There are basic steps we could take to reduce injury and death in our country, no gun confiscation involved.
Why not just do it?

"I think" - no you assume, incorrectly.

I never said I believe
Quote

giving anybody who wants one a gun, no questions asked, makes it easier to defend yourself.

The first common sense step is to enforce the current laws. What good does it do to pass new ones if they are enforced with the current vigor?

Once again (as I posted elsewhere):
GAO - Few Individuals Denied Firearms Purchases Are Prosecuted
OIG - Audit of the Handling of Firearms Purchase Denials Through the National Instant Criminal Background Check System
We ‘don’t have the time’ to prosecute gun buyers who lie on background checks This was prophetic as Biden's son, Hunter lied on his 4473 to purchase a handgun in 2018 while addicted to drugs. Felony offense.
Where do criminals get guns?
Sources of Guns to Dangerous People
Firearm Use By Offenders
Guns in Chicago just ‘2.5 handshakes’ away
John Hopkins - California’s Background Check Law Had No Impact on Gun Deaths
Crime Guns Obtained Illegally Shortly Before Shootings


As to your "good guy with a gun" comment: it was Obama's ordered study on gun violence that discovered the statistic that there are 500,00 to 3,000,000 defensive gun uses per year.
You can get the free pdf.

You use the oft used "it is easier to buy [common item] than it is to buy a gun." lie without investigating this claim. Obama used this unchallenged lie frequently. In my state to buy a gun, a buyer must fill out the 4473 form, show photo ID, wait for NICS approval (depending on volume may take hours or a day or two), then pay for the gun.

The first basic step is to better enforce current laws.

Why not just do it?
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Re: Todler gun rampage continues
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: May 15, 2021 09:19AM
Quote
mrbill62
Quote
Lemon Drop
I think you mean that you believe giving anybody who wants one a gun, no questions asked, makes it easier to defend yourself. But if we take some common sense steps to prevent people with bad intentions from getting guns, wouldn't that dramatically reduce any need to defend yourself?

This game of "good guy with a gun" has no winners and to date has only made our country more dangerous. It is well known that having a gun in your home increases the odds that someone who lives there will die or be injured by gunfire.

People who choose to own deadly weapons whose only purpose is to kill or injure should be obligated to prove they will manage that weapon safely and responsibly. It should not be harder to buy beer than an AR-15.

There are basic steps we could take to reduce injury and death in our country, no gun confiscation involved.
Why not just do it?

"I think" - no you assume, incorrectly.

I never said I believe
Quote

giving anybody who wants one a gun, no questions asked, makes it easier to defend yourself.

The first common sense step is to enforce the current laws. What good does it do to pass new ones if they are enforced with the current vigor?

Once again (as I posted elsewhere):
GAO - Few Individuals Denied Firearms Purchases Are Prosecuted
OIG - Audit of the Handling of Firearms Purchase Denials Through the National Instant Criminal Background Check System
We ‘don’t have the time’ to prosecute gun buyers who lie on background checks This was prophetic as Biden's son, Hunter lied on his 4473 to purchase a handgun in 2018 while addicted to drugs. Felony offense.
Where do criminals get guns?
Sources of Guns to Dangerous People
Firearm Use By Offenders
Guns in Chicago just ‘2.5 handshakes’ away
John Hopkins - California’s Background Check Law Had No Impact on Gun Deaths
Crime Guns Obtained Illegally Shortly Before Shootings


As to your "good guy with a gun" comment: it was Obama's ordered study on gun violence that discovered the statistic that there are 500,00 to 3,000,000 defensive gun uses per year.
You can get the free pdf.

You use the oft used "it is easier to buy [common item] than it is to buy a gun." lie without investigating this claim. Obama used this unchallenged lie frequently. In my state to buy a gun, a buyer must fill out the 4473 form, show photo ID, wait for NICS approval (depending on volume may take hours or a day or two), then pay for the gun.

The first basic step is to better enforce current laws.

Why not just do it?

In 2016, a troubled 19 year old who could not legally buy beer anywhere in the state, easily legally purchased an AR-15 and extra ammunition from a sporting goods store, no permit or license or waiting required. He then used it to kill his ex girlfriend and 2 other young people during a party at the home of one of my closest friends.

He hid in bushes and ambushed them on the patio, there is no way any armed person could have prevented this. He sprayed bullets all over the house with the weapon he learned to use by reading the manual in his car outside the party that same night.

The prevention of these murders would have been making him wait for his gun and ammunition purchase, or maybe not let people too young to buy alcohol buy these powerful instruments of mass death?

So in November 2018 Washington state voters passed an initiative with 60 % saying make it much harder to buy an assault rifle, including raising the age to 21.

This is an example of the common sense measures that a majority of Americans want.

So there is no lie. Only needless, preventable death.
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Re: Todler gun rampage continues
Posted by: mrbill62
Date: May 16, 2021 05:25AM
You ignore everything I listed to focus on individual cases.
What is/was Washington State Law when the purchase made?
Does WA use NICS or their own system?
Was the 19 y/o a prohibited person under 18 U.S. Code § 922?

Use the CDC's WONDER tool or check the FBI's Crime in the US to compare the number of homicides by handgun vs rifles of all types. The do the same with rifles (all types) vs knives.


Since you like to use individual cases to prove your point:

In 2015 a woman was stabbed to death by her ex-boyfriend. What does this have to do with guns? She had applied for a permit to purchase a gun. New Jersey has a mandatory 30 day processing period, which in her case had become 42 days. She was described as a petite woman.

She did everything she was supposed to do: She installed home security system. She had filed for a restraining order which was repeatedly violated. She requested police escort her home but was denied due to lack of manpower. NJ State law states police cannot be held liable for failure to protect citizens, with or without a civil protection order.

Her security & surveillance system recorded her murder. A needless death.

After her murder, Gov Christie reduced the waiting time to 14 days. In 2019 Gov Phil Murphy extended the waiting time back to 30 days.

April 2021, in NYC, a woman shot her ex-girlfriend in the back of her head. NY State requires a permit to purchase a handgun. In July 2019 NY State extended the waiting period from 3 to 30 days.


In 2005 the Supreme Court reaffirmed a lower court decision & a previous SCOTUS decision that there is no Constitutional duty for law enforcement to protect any person.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/16/2021 05:26AM by mrbill62.
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