The kind of incentive that works.

Hospital suspends 178 staff for not complying with COVID vaccine mandate
[www.axios.com]

Houston Methodist Hospital on Tuesday suspended 178 employees without pay for 14 days for failing to comply with its COVID-19 vaccine requirement.

The Texas hospital's CEO, Marc Boom, said in a message to staff shared with Axios that 24,947 workers had been vaccinated against the virus by Monday's deadline. 27 of those who didn't get fully vaccinated "have received one dose ... so I am hopeful they will get their second doses soon," Boom said.

285 staff "received a medical or religious exemption, and 332 were granted deferrals for pregnancy and other reasons," per Boom's statement.

The hospital is being sued by 117 employees who allege that its policy mandating that all staff must be vaccinated against the coronavirus is unlawful.

A group of medical workers rallied outside the hospital on Monday in protest against the policy, notes the Washington Post, which first reported news of the suspensions.

The federal government said last month that it is legal for companies to require workers to get vaccines.

What else he's saying: "I know that today may be difficult for some who are sad about losing a colleague who’s decided to not get vaccinated," Boom said.

"We only wish them well and thank them for their past service to our community, and we must respect the decision they made."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/09/2021 10:51AM by Steve G..

"The kind of incentive that works."

I know you're just being funny, but fwiw this is most definitely coercion, not incentive. There are books written about why coercion is not particularly effective in the long run, but it does feel good to be "tough on crime", if you get what I'm saying.

That said, I do believe it would be in everyone's best interest to have as many people vaccinated as possible.

The vaudeville act of Abbot and Paxton should start spouting off absurdities about this being the end of the universe as we know it by the end of the day (unless they wait for the Fox Comedy Hour.

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“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.” -- François de La Rochefoucauld

"Those who cannot accept the past are condemned to revise it." -- Geo. Mathias

The German word for contraceptive is “Schwangerschaftsverhütungsmittel”. By the time you finished saying that, it’s too late

For people in the front lines of patient care to refuse vaccination warrants taking such people out of the hospital in order to protect patients and staff during a pandemic. This is a life and death issue, not a preservation of “I don’t wanna” or “my hairdresser’s antivax cousin says” right to be irresponsible with the lives of others.

What if surgical staff refused to wear masks during surgery? Would suspension not be warranted? Would that be coercion?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/09/2021 01:13PM by S. Pupp.

"not a preservation of “I don’t wanna” or “my hairdresser’s antivax cousin says” right to be irresponsible with the lives of others. "

I don't remember, and can't locate in the text above, where I said anything like this. Coercion just isn't always the best way to achieve legit goals. You know, three strikes and out, etc. etc.

If that's policy and procedure for that hospital, then it's "warranted", but it might not be the most effective way to get what they want.

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kj
"not a preservation of “I don’t wanna” or “my hairdresser’s antivax cousin says” right to be irresponsible with the lives of others. "

I don't remember, and can't locate in the text above, where I said anything like this. Coercion just isn't always the best way to achieve legit goals. You know, three strikes and out, etc. etc.

If that's policy and procedure for that hospital, then it's "warranted", but it might not be the most effective way to get what they want.

when people say no to vaccine, how do you get them to say yes without coercion? These people will not be educated, will not respond to reason - their answer is 'no'. The debate is over. They either agree to the job requirements or they don't and if they don't, they need to leave because not doing so may kill people.

The health care industry probably can't afford to lose that many workers. If they did, would that impact health care negatively in other, maybe worse, ways? And, I have to admit I am a little put off by the fact that the "liberal way" has been persuasion, historically. And more and more, I think that has changed to a more conservative bonk people over the head approach. It's odd to me.

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

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kj
The health care industry probably can't afford to lose that many workers. If they did, would that impact health care negatively in other, maybe worse, ways? And, I have to admit I am a little put off by the fact that the "liberal way" has been persuasion, historically. And more and more, I think that has changed to a more conservative bonk people over the head approach. It's odd to me.

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Those 178 suspended employees represent .007% of the hospital workforce, I suspect they turnover more than that monthly.

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RgrF

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kj
The health care industry probably can't afford to lose that many workers. If they did, would that impact health care negatively in other, maybe worse, ways? And, I have to admit I am a little put off by the fact that the "liberal way" has been persuasion, historically. And more and more, I think that has changed to a more conservative bonk people over the head approach. It's odd to me.

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Those 178 suspended employees represent .007% of the hospital workforce, I suspect they turnover more than that monthly.

Oh, well those 178 suspended employees only represent a silly small percentage of those who are un vaccinated too, right?

[www.cbsnews.com]

Can they we afford to lose half of all of them?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/09/2021 02:38PM by kj.

It's a little surprising that people who are always in favor of the employer and the employer's rights are all in a tizzy about this. An employer can set whatever requirements necessary for the job as allowed by law, and if you aren't able to perform or meet those requirements, they're well within their rights to fire you.

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Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)

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kj
The health care industry probably can't afford to lose that many workers. If they did, would that impact health care negatively in other, maybe worse, ways? And, I have to admit I am a little put off by the fact that the "liberal way" has been persuasion, historically. And more and more, I think that has changed to a more conservative bonk people over the head approach. It's odd to me.

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

There was no solution that I could find in that essay.

"Instead of allocating funds to incentivise vaccination, it may be better to spend these resources to ensure that primary care providers have time to listen to vaccine-hesitant members of the community and to address their expressed concerns. Public health messaging emphasising the social benefits of vaccination, furthermore, has been shown to have a positive effect on intention to vaccine in adults."

We've seen how well this works... after all of their suggestions fail, what would they suggest then? Letting hospital staff continue to work unvaccinated? Or perhaps use some coercion?

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hal

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kj
The health care industry probably can't afford to lose that many workers. If they did, would that impact health care negatively in other, maybe worse, ways? And, I have to admit I am a little put off by the fact that the "liberal way" has been persuasion, historically. And more and more, I think that has changed to a more conservative bonk people over the head approach. It's odd to me.

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

There was no solution that I could find in that essay.

"Instead of allocating funds to incentivise vaccination, it may be better to spend these resources to ensure that primary care providers have time to listen to vaccine-hesitant members of the community and to address their expressed concerns. Public health messaging emphasising the social benefits of vaccination, furthermore, has been shown to have a positive effect on intention to vaccine in adults."

We've seen how well this works... after all of their suggestions fail, what would they suggest then? Letting hospital staff continue to work unvaccinated? Or perhaps use some coercion?

Ok, fire half of all health care workers. That'll "solve" things.

I wonder how many of those 178 never interact with a patient? It said workers not nurses/doctors/etc. They could be custodians, file clerks, parking lot valets.

---

“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.” -- François de La Rochefoucauld

"Those who cannot accept the past are condemned to revise it." -- Geo. Mathias

The German word for contraceptive is “Schwangerschaftsverhütungsmittel”. By the time you finished saying that, it’s too late

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Ombligo
I wonder how many of those 178 never interact with a patient? It said workers not nurses/doctors/etc. They could be custodians, file clerks, parking lot valets.

I can't believe that Jennifer Bridges is the only nurse involved.
Amanda Rivera "worked in the ER." Regardless of whether or not she had direct patient contact herself, she almost certainly had contact with others who did.

(Source of names: USA Today)

How many hospital systems also mandate a no-smoking policy?

I don't know but quite a few years ago, there was a local business that made the news because it required all employees to be tobacco free. It gave their employees a certain amount of time to quit. If they did not quit then their employment was terminated. And it wasn't on the honor system; everyone was tested.

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Ombligo
I wonder how many of those 178 never interact with a patient? It said workers not nurses/doctors/etc. They could be custodians, file clerks, parking lot valets.

If you share a hospital elevator, you've potentially interacted with a patient and/or contaminated the environment, so it doesn't really matter what work role they're in, specifically, although it's especially disheartening to hear of any licensed medical professional participating in such nonsense. Anyone who works at a hospital has reason to know that their employer mandates certain infection control precautions.

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Le poète doit vivre beaucoup, vivre dans tous les sens. - Verlaine

Remember the old joke, “Don’t got to a hospital, because it’s filled with sick people.”

There are more good reasons for this employer compelling employees to vaccinate than there are not. If we seek perfection we’ll be left with a larger pile of dead people while anti-vaxxers are catered to. With free dessert.

Here’s another related joke: “Too long dead.” Meaning, the length of time it takes to figure something out always takes too long if you’re dead. Pandemics tend to be crises, absent the luxuries of hindsight and endless meetings.

All of this can be argued as, “The ends justify the means,” where the means are implied to be bad. Trouble is, the means here don’t really have a downside apart from upsetting people who do not like being told what to do.

Traffic lights.
Rules and norms about eating someone else’s french fries.
You can dance around the topic of unsafe vaccinations but until you put up or shut up with proof ... the alternative is demonstrably worse.

Medical pros in particular should not be seeking perfection here. It’s beyond the pale, under the circumstances and in context, to play to their fears. It’s a job, and they’re in the wrong one. It’s not coercion any more than compelling them to sterilize a needle. Hmm, I wonder why?

How times, and the citizenship of the American public, have changed...

"Tires were the first item to be rationed by the OPA, which ordered the temporary end of sales on 11 December 1941 while it created 7,500 unpaid, volunteer three-person tire ration boards around the country. By 5 January 1942 the boards were ready.

The War Production Board (WPB) ordered the temporary end of all civilian automobile sales on 1 January 1942...(only certain professions, such as doctors and clergymen, qualified to purchase the remaining inventory), typewriters in March, and bicycles in May
Automobile factories stopped manufacturing civilian models by early February 1942 and converted to producing tanks, aircraft, weapons, and other military products, with the United States government as the only customer.

A national speed limit of 35 miles per hour was imposed to save fuel and rubber for tires.

Sugar was the first consumer commodity rationed...Coffee was rationed nationally on 29 November 1942.

As of 1 March 1942, dog food could no longer be sold in tin cans, and manufacturers switched to dehydrated versions. As of 1 April 1942, anyone wishing to purchase a new toothpaste tube, then made from metal, had to turn in an empty one."

...and many, many more sacrifices.

Rationing in the United States

But hey, Freedumb!

This is absurd. When you are a firefighter, you wear your PPE on duty. When you are a soldier, you wear your uniform / armor for the job.

A vaccine is just the same issue for health care workers. If you don’t like it, stop walking into fires without your fire suit and do something else.

Deusx,

It's amazing how much rationing at the time is in some ways much like recycling and reusing now. The idea of turning in a tube from toothpaste in order to receive a new tube comes to mind. Nowadays, look at disinfectants and cleaners.

Many companies are selling the product with a reusable dispenser. Buy the initial package which comes with a dispenser and a batch of the product in X or Y form. Put the base product (often a tablet) in the dispenser. Add water. You now have a bottle of the disinfectant or cleaner. Finish what's in the bottle? Drop in a new quantity of the product. Add water. Go back to work. Done. I do that with Steramine tablets in a 1 gallon plastic bottle and reusable spay bottles.

I'm seeing the same thing starting to appear with goods like antiperspirants and deodorants. It doesn't come in a tabel but in a small package that is placed into a reusable dispenser. Love the idea! Can't wait for more companies to do that and would love to see my favorite brand (Duke Cannon) be the next one to do it.

Robert