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Re: Thesis on the motivation for gun ownership
Posted by: kj
Date: July 20, 2021 06:49PM
Fear of hunger.
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Re: Thesis on the motivation for gun ownership
Posted by: Lux Interior
Date: July 20, 2021 06:53PM
Fear of a Black Planet.
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Re: Thesis on the motivation for gun ownership
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: July 20, 2021 07:11PM
Quote
kj
Fear of hunger.

Oh please! RollingEyesSmiley5
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Re: Thesis on the motivation for gun ownership
Posted by: deckeda
Date: July 20, 2021 08:09PM
Quote
testcase
"why do you want to have a gun? Because it's my constitutional right! No other reason given."


It's like VOTING. Because it IS a CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT, NO other reason need be given.

That’s curious, given that the Consti has been amended several times. What’s “in it” remains somewhat fungible overall.

The bigger problem is justifying reasons based on the existence of laws when said laws just might not be ethical or moral when practically applied. See the above as the outcome of that.
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Re: Thesis on the motivation for gun ownership
Posted by: sekker
Date: July 21, 2021 09:25AM
Quote
testcase
"why do you want to have a gun? Because it's my constitutional right! No other reason given."


It's like VOTING. Because it IS a CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT, NO other reason need be given.

Except - these are NOT the same thing. No normal human being reading the second amendment would interpret that clause - when the infamous comma is included - to mean we have the 'right' to have guns. We are not a part of a militia. So please stop putting gun 'rights' on the same level as true voting rights.

Or, if you DO, then you should be front in line with all of the voting rights bills in Congress. We've made it far HARDER to vote than to get a gun in many states.

There is no logical middle ground.
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Re: Thesis on the motivation for gun ownership
Posted by: Buzz
Date: July 21, 2021 12:19PM
"There is no logical middle ground."

In the last two and a half centuries since we've been a country, our private citizens have acquired approx 1.25 guns for every man, woman and child in our country. Our babies aren't born with only silver spoons in their mouths, they're born with more than one gun in each of their mouths, too. And that's exclusive of the add'l vast piles of unknown, and illegally procured guns, as well as all military guns.

That's a lotta guns in a lotta peeps' hands that are spread all throughout our country. I'm not alone in not wanting to defend my family in a gunfight, w/ only a Swiss Army Pocketknife's toothpick to protect me.

The "logic" is an equal playing field, er, make that an equal fighting ring, or octagon, or armed homeowner when an armed intruder enters their premises w/ ill intentions.

Unless, and until you can clear the playing field, what you call your "logical middle ground" will continue to exist. Comparing it w/ voting rights is so far afield, it is laughable. Simply accept that both are Constitutional Rights, in their own separate ways (along w/ most other "rights") will make life a lot easier. We don't need to compare which, of any or all of our "rights" are better, or more important, or more equal, than any other "right". The bigger issue these days, are the peeps that seek to unilaterally change our rights adversely to the will of the majority of the people governed by them.

I'd love our country to be gun-free (and drug-free, and other stuff...), and would be happy to rent/borrow a gun to shoot at the range if I wanted to go shooting; but that's not gonna happen in any of our lifetimes. The USS Gunship sailed so long ago, it's likely never gonna make it's way back into port, for at least as long as our country maintains some semblance of its democratic experiment. Frankly, I can't envision wanting to live under a regime that could rid this country of its guns within even two or three lifetimes. The last few years have been an exclamation on that point.

Wasn't our country founded by the use of guns against "taxation without representation" ? ? ?
Same $h!t, different day from where I'm sitting.
==
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Re: Thesis on the motivation for gun ownership
Posted by: kj
Date: July 21, 2021 02:05PM
Quote
DeusxMac
Quote
kj
Fear of hunger.

Oh please! RollingEyesSmiley5

Right back at you. Trying to disguise an insult as some sort of scientific "thesis" is boring. Your "thesis" is completely untenable. You can't get it off the ground. Either come up with a better insult, or a better "thesis".
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Re: Thesis on the motivation for gun ownership
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: July 21, 2021 03:02PM
Quote
kj
Quote
DeusxMac
Quote
kj
Fear of hunger.

Oh please! RollingEyesSmiley5

Right back at you. Trying to disguise an insult as some sort of scientific "thesis" is boring. Your "thesis" is completely untenable. You can't get it off the ground. Either come up with a better insult, or a better "thesis".

A. So far there have been a number of “defenses” for gun ownership which have openly declared “fear” is the motivation.

B. I don’t believe any thesis* is disproved by someone saying they don’t like it, and want a “better” one.

*Not “scientific” as you label it, but a position or proposition that a person advances and offers to maintain by argument
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Re: Thesis on the motivation for gun ownership
Posted by: August West
Date: July 21, 2021 03:27PM
kj, you hit the nail on the head. Deus, what is this ill-defined "root motivation" you have attached to your "thesis?"



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Re: Thesis on the motivation for gun ownership
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: July 21, 2021 03:35PM
Quote
August West
kj, you hit the nail on the head. Deus, what is this ill-defined "root motivation" you have attached to your "thesis?"

Please re-read OP; specifically first sentence.
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Re: Thesis on the motivation for gun ownership
Posted by: deckeda
Date: July 21, 2021 03:53PM
I'd love our country to be gun-free

Buzz I don’t believe you. So now ownership is a terrible burden? Risks are likelihood and impact. The impact of being shot is seldom in question. The other is where America is atypical in the world.

It’s worth noting criminals don’t typically possess guns with an intent to die. You’re not feared, nor should you be feared. How do they know of your bona fides, your marksmanship, your reaction times, your target practice success, your training for a variety of similar or adaptable circumstances? How on earth does anyone know?

I also don’t see you as a deterrent to crime or violence under the circumstances, so it’s worth asking who should blink first if reducing guns is a laudable goal. The other guy you can’t control, or yourself? Where does change happen, always with someone else first?
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Re: Thesis on the motivation for gun ownership
Posted by: kj
Date: July 21, 2021 05:09PM
Quote
DeusxMac
Quote
kj
Quote
DeusxMac
Quote
kj
Fear of hunger.

Oh please! RollingEyesSmiley5

Right back at you. Trying to disguise an insult as some sort of scientific "thesis" is boring. Your "thesis" is completely untenable. You can't get it off the ground. Either come up with a better insult, or a better "thesis".

A. So far there have been a number of “defenses” for gun ownership which have openly declared “fear” is the motivation.

B. I don’t believe any thesis* is disproved by someone saying they don’t like it, and want a “better” one.

*Not “scientific” as you label it, but a position or proposition that a person advances and offers to maintain by argument

People have given you lots of reasons to own a gun that have nothing to do with fear, and you've either not responded, or recast the reason in terms of fear, whether it makes sense or not.

I have guns. I used to hunt elk, and I may again. I used to hunt birds, and I may again. I have taken my kids and friends out just to shoot the guns. It was fun and educational in the deepest sense of the word. Explain to me how any of that has anything to do with fear.

The simplest theories of motivation start with the idea people do things because they want something, or because they want to avoid something. And it only gets more complicated after that. You are taking half of the most simplistic exaplanatory concept, and saying "this is why all people have guns". Not particularly compelling.
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Re: Thesis on the motivation for gun ownership
Posted by: August West
Date: July 21, 2021 05:38PM
Quote

The root motivation - and justification; conscious or subconscious - for gun ownership is FEAR.

Your thesis has no definition for root motivation

Your thesis is very poorly posed

Your rationales are not saving it



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Re: Thesis on the motivation for gun ownership
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: July 21, 2021 05:52PM
Quote
kj
People have given you lots of reasons to own a gun that have nothing to do with fear, and you've either not responded, or recast the reason in terms of fear, whether it makes sense or not.

You may not agree with my responses, but I HAVE responded.

Quote
kj
I have guns. I used to hunt elk, and I may again. I used to hunt birds, and I may again. I have taken my kids and friends out just to shoot the guns. It was fun and educational in the deepest sense of the word. Explain to me how any of that has anything to do with fear.

Please explain why you think shooting guns is "fun"; what is fun about it?.
Please explain how it is "educational"; what of value is learned?

Quote
kj
The simplest theories of motivation start with the idea people do things because they want something, or because they want to avoid something. And it only gets more complicated after that. You are taking half of the most simplistic exaplanatory concept, and saying "this is why all people have guns". Not particularly compelling.

Those who truly, deeply WANT to have guns aren't likely to be "compelled" by any reasonable arguments against them. They will ignore, avoid, rationalize, deflect, excuse.
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Re: Thesis on the motivation for gun ownership
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: July 21, 2021 06:28PM
Quote
August West
Quote

The root motivation - and justification; conscious or subconscious - for gun ownership is FEAR.

Your thesis has no definition for root motivation

I thought "root" and "motivation" would be sufficiently self-explanatory.
- root: the basic cause, source, or origin of something
- motivation: the reason or reasons one has for acting or behaving in a particular way

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August West
Your thesis is very poorly posed

This IS just an online forum, not a Masters Degree program. I did expand on the character of the fears in my OP.

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August West
Your rationales are not saving it

There have been a number of posts and links by others in this thread that specifically discuss the FEAR motivation for gun ownership.

Link from Lemon Drop

Link from vision63

Quote
Buzz
The first goal is for my family and me to feel safer than we would if we didn't have protection.


From the "Nosey Poll for Gun Owners" OP just above:

Quote
Rick-o
Home Defense - Yup, even though I live in a small, fairly low crime area, it only takes one low life breaking in and causing serious damage to my family and property. You bet I would defend my family and home with my last breath.
Concealed Carry - Yes, I have a concealed pistol permit. I only pack when I'm headed to the big cities, like my former hometown of Flint, MI. I have no real reason to carry in the relatively safe town I now live in.

Quote
testcase
With all the civil / social unrest across the nation, especially since 2020, MILLIONS of Americans have voted with their feet AND wallets by fleeing cities and BUYING GUNS in unprecedented numbers. Try tell those VERY nervous folks that they're "over reacting".

Link from Racer X
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Re: Thesis on the motivation for gun ownership
Posted by: August West
Date: July 21, 2021 09:49PM
While your links in support of your opinion are great, anyone presenting a meaningful and persuasive argument should know that a discussion of opposing opinions is equally if not more important.

Likewise, it's also incumbent on you to define the terms you use and how you perceive the scope of their use when showing your argument, particularly in order for others to understand and accept it. Just because one can look up definitions of the words "root" and "motivation" is not indicative or supportive of how you might construct the meaning of those words in a fashion that supports your thesis.

Free advice above, but my opinion below might sting a little.

I stand by my agreement with kj that you are putting forward a one dimensional, simplistic, and somewhat boring position. I wish you good luck with your conviction that complex human behavior can be explained solely through one emotional cause.



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Re: Thesis on the motivation for gun ownership
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: July 21, 2021 11:04PM
DeusxMac = Troll.

Q.E.D.



It is what it is.
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Re: Thesis on the motivation for gun ownership
Posted by: kj
Date: July 21, 2021 11:23PM
Quote
DeusxMac
You may not agree with my responses, but I HAVE responded.

I was hoping you could tell me how my reasons for having guns would suggest I am motivated by fear. Instead, you are trying to argue guns aren't fun, and shooting with my friends and family has not been educational. Even if it's not fun, and I somehow just thought it was fun, that doesn't mean I'm afraid of anything. And lack of educational value doesn't support your thesis either. Lastly, even people concealed carrying may not be motivated by fear. Fear is a physiological response, and I doubt that is happening in these people. Wanting to be able to defend oneself is not fear in itself. You can argue it's not effective, but that's a whole different thing.

Quote
DeusxMac
Please explain why you think shooting guns is "fun"; what is fun about it?.
Please explain how it is "educational"; what of value is learned?

I don't want to be derailed, but the last time we went shooting, we brought assorted objects to shoot at. I hit a 6oz bottle at 100yds, and it was cool. It was like hitting a 3-pointer. I don't know why putting a ball through hoop is fun either, but I'd like to see an argument for why it isn't. Anyway, undoubtedly it has to do with the power a gun has. Using powerful things seems to be inherently entertaining, to some degree. Idk. I've never seen a satisfactory explanation for why anything is fun, tbh.

Highlights for me, educationally, would be:

1) guns are not necessarily scary.
2) guns are ridiculously powerful (they are not toys).
3) something that powerful deserves immense discipline and respect. you can't lose that focus, or you could be hurt or hurt someone. how DO you handle it safely? it takes practice.
4) storing them (trigger locks, etc.) is just a natural part of the experience.

Quote
DeusxMac
Those who truly, deeply WANT to have guns aren't likely to be "compelled" by any reasonable arguments against them. They will ignore, avoid, rationalize, deflect, excuse.

The most damaging thing is dishonesty, and I think there is way too much of that on all sides. It's hard to have meaningful dialog when you don't believe people are being truthful. I have to say that your statement sounds like you are saying people are just too stupid to understand you are correct. I'm not sure that's a effective way to think.
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Re: Thesis on the motivation for gun ownership
Posted by: davester
Date: July 22, 2021 01:52PM
Quote
testcase
"why do you want to have a gun? Because it's my constitutional right! No other reason given."


It's like VOTING. Because it IS a CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT, NO other reason need be given.

That's not actually a reason. That's actually saying that you don't have a reason.



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan
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Re: Thesis on the motivation for gun ownership
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: July 22, 2021 01:53PM
smiley-signs001
Thanks to all who participated in this discussion. Obviously it could go on forever (and likely will, in other threads).

As I stated at the very beginning of my OP "I've queried gun owners here at this forum about why they feel a need to own their guns. I've never received any answers."

If nothing else, my OP has motivated our forum gun owners to explain some of their thinking on this subject.

Feel free to PM if you would like to continue this particular discussion.
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Re: Thesis on the motivation for gun ownership
Posted by: Rick-o
Date: July 22, 2021 02:18PM
> From the "Nosey Poll for Gun Owners" OP just above:

Quote
Rick-o
Home Defense - Yup, even though I live in a small, fairly low crime area, it only takes one low life breaking in and causing serious damage to my family and property. You bet I would defend my family and home with my last breath.
Concealed Carry - Yes, I have a concealed pistol permit. I only pack when I'm headed to the big cities, like my former hometown of Flint, MI. I have no real reason to carry in the relatively safe town I now live in.


You say it's fear. I say it's common sense. Too bad common sense is far from common.



Mr. Lahey: A lot of people, don’t know how to drink. They drink against the grain of the liquor. And when you drink against the grain of the liquor? You lose.

Randy: What the @#$%& are you talking about?
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Re: Thesis on the motivation for gun ownership
Posted by: Racer X
Date: July 23, 2021 03:03PM
People don't lock their doors out of fear, its just common sense.



********************************************
The police have no duty to respond. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) or Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)
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Re: Thesis on the motivation for gun ownership
Posted by: kj
Date: July 23, 2021 06:54PM
Quote
Racer X
People don't lock their doors out of fear, its just common sense.

Locking your doors is a wise thing to do, even if you are "scared" someone uninvited might visit you. Just like I'm "scared" to cross the street without looking both ways. Nothing wrong with taking action to reduce the likelihood of bad things occurring. If fear is so wrong, I don't want to be right.
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Re: Thesis on the motivation for gun ownership
Posted by: Bill in NC
Date: July 24, 2021 08:02AM
Like LD growing up "out in the country" I had neighbors who if they didn't hunt they'd not have any meat.

My family was never in such dire circumstances, but I can't see those above as being "in fear of deer." smiling smiley



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/24/2021 08:02AM by Bill in NC.
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Re: Thesis on the motivation for gun ownership
Posted by: davester
Date: July 24, 2021 02:42PM
Quote
Bill in NC
Like LD growing up "out in the country" I had neighbors who if they didn't hunt they'd not have any meat.

My family was never in such dire circumstances, but I can't see those above as being "in fear of deer." smiling smiley

Nobody's talking about subsistence hunters. We're talking about people who keep guns for the sole purpose of killing people (aka "protection").



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/24/2021 02:42PM by davester.
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